smtkr wrote on 2022-12-07, 03:28:

Hi. I am setting up my music for a game called The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. I have a lot of music options and they all soun […]
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Hi. I am setting up my music for a game called The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. I have a lot of music options and they all sound different (and I like them all).

What is the difference between these when I'm using my Orpheus card:
MPU-401
Roland Sound Canvas
MT-32

I'm using the card in the default configuration with the daughter board attached.

I'm guessing the difference between the Sound Canvas and the MT-32 is the GS extensions.

smtkr wrote on 2022-12-28, 03:21:

smtkr wrote on 2022-12-07, 03:28:

Hi. I am setting up my music for a game called The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. I have a lot of music options and they all soun […]
Show full quote

Hi. I am setting up my music for a game called The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. I have a lot of music options and they all sound different (and I like them all).

What is the difference between these when I'm using my Orpheus card:
MPU-401
Roland Sound Canvas
MT-32

I'm using the card in the default configuration with the daughter board attached.

I'm guessing the difference between the Sound Canvas and the MT-32 is the GS extensions.

The mt32 is not even GM compatible let alone that.

kolderman wrote on 2022-12-28, 06:40:

smtkr wrote on 2022-12-28, 03:21:

smtkr wrote on 2022-12-07, 03:28:

Hi. I am setting up my music for a game called The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. I have a lot of music options and they all soun […]
Show full quote

Hi. I am setting up my music for a game called The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. I have a lot of music options and they all sound different (and I like them all).

What is the difference between these when I'm using my Orpheus card:
MPU-401
Roland Sound Canvas
MT-32

I'm using the card in the default configuration with the daughter board attached.

I'm guessing the difference between the Sound Canvas and the MT-32 is the GS extensions.

The mt32 is not even GM compatible let alone that.

Real MT-32s are capable of using a GM-compatible mapping with a utility from Roland though.

Is this card out of stock ?

Out of stock and discontinued
When we make more Oprheus cards it will be the full OrpheusII (with the interwave chip) and the OrpheusII-LT (without interwave chip, basically the new base Orpheus).
The original OrpheusI will still be supported , just not made anymore.

Hi, I was lucky enough to get a Orpheus 2 LT however I am having some issues with getting it setup. A little background, I have it installed on an Asus P3B mother board (2 ISA slots) with a P3 1.4Ghz Tualatin and running Windows 98SE. I have an Audigy 2 in there as well, but it isn't really meant for DOS gaming and you have to do a bit of a hack to get it to play even DOS games in Windows. So I wanted to do a dual Sound Card setup.

I have the sound card setup and installed with the latest Orpheus drivers like Orphinit 0.54B for DOS and PV2860 for Windows 98, I even have Unisound as I have been trying both that and Orphinit. I would say I have everything setup about 75% of the way I would think it should be but have been running into some issues.

DOS Native Mode:

1. When I use either Orphinit or Unisound to specify the card to use the OPL3 chip, no games will recognize the card in the Music configs, the digital sound config seems to work fine as expected with SB/SBPro/WSS. But when I try to select Adlib for music it says it can't find the card or just doesn't work. For example in Warcraft 2 in DOS I select Adlib and it tries to detect the card but fails, Duke3D says "Could not detect FM Chip". I am not sure what I could be doing wrong.

Like I said, I tried both Orphinit and Unisound. In Orphinit, everything is the default expect I have to set FMMode=OPL3 otherwise it defaults to CrystalFM. Then I run orpheus.exe to initalize and it says it set OPL3.. but I get all the errors above.

I have also tried Unisound (which is what I have configured in my autoexec right now), I have my Blast config set as:

SET BLASTER = A220 I5 D1 T4
C:\Unisound\Unisound.com /XOFe /VC90 /VL90 /VF90

But with that setup it gives the exact same errors as the Orphinit setup 🙁

Figured this should be a pretty easy config, just swapping between CrystalFM and OPL3 but maybe I am missing something right in front of me??

2. FM sound aside, I also have PCMidi setup to output to my SC-55 over the default port 330. This works fine for the most part, except one big issue I found.

In Dark Forces, during the setup, if I try to specify Roland or General Midi as the Music device it freezes as soon as I click test music (have to reboot). Other games like Duke3D/Warcraft 2 work fine when I select SC or General Midi. Just wondering if anyone has had issues with Dark Forces in the past?

Windows 98:

First, I manually installed the Roland MPU 401 Windows Drivers as I believe that is what the product page said you need to do..

In Windows I am trying to use the PCMidi/Roland MPU output to send midi data to my SC-55 however it doesn't work in Windows native apps it seems. If I load a game in a Windows DOS window they can stream the midi music data to the sc-55, but if I try to play just a midi file in Windows itself like in Winamp it does not work. I get an error message saying:

Roland Sound Midi Driver - Can't Access the COM port. Make sure the COM port is not in use by another application. Does anyone have any experience setting up the PCMidi device in Windows 98 and can share what they have done to get midi playback working in Windows native music apps?

That's about it for now I think 😉 Appreciate any guidance and help on these issues!!! Thank You!!!

KuroHouou wrote on 2023-01-12, 13:36:

Hi, I was lucky enough to get a Orpheus 2 LT[...]

On the top left side of the CS4237 chip there is a jumper - move it to other position and all the init issues will be gone
About PCMIDI, there is no problem with Dark Forces or using it under windows.
Due to the nature of your system I assume IRQ2 is not free (probably used by ACPI) so if you cannot really free it you must use another IRQ for PCMIDI.
Under win9x PCMIDI gets detected if you do a manual hardware search (since it's not a PnP device) and you can either use the built-in MPU-401 driver or the Roland one found here: http://pcmidi.eu/files.html
The COM error also shows that you try to install the wrong driver - probably one meant for external serial mpu interfaces.
Also under windows make sure that the midi mapper is set to the 401-OUT port that corresponds to PCMIDI and not some other port from a soundcard.
Please let me know how things are with this new info!

keropi wrote on 2023-01-12, 13:48:

On the top left side of the CS4237 chip there is a jumper - move it to other position and all the init issues will be gone About […]
Show full quote

KuroHouou wrote on 2023-01-12, 13:36:

Hi, I was lucky enough to get a Orpheus 2 LT[...]

On the top left side of the CS4237 chip there is a jumper - move it to other position and all the init issues will be gone
About PCMIDI, there is no problem with Dark Forces or using it under windows.
Due to the nature of your system I assume IRQ2 is not free (probably used by ACPI) so if you cannot really free it you must use another IRQ for PCMIDI.
Under win9x PCMIDI gets detected if you do a manual hardware search (since it's not a PnP device) and you can either use the built-in MPU-401 driver or the Roland one found here: http://pcmidi.eu/files.html
The COM error also shows that you try to install the wrong driver - probably one meant for external serial mpu interfaces.
Also under windows make sure that the midi mapper is set to the 401-OUT port that corresponds to PCMIDI and not some other port from a soundcard.
Please let me know how things are with this new info!

Well it was like 2 steps forward and one backward..

So I downloaded the drivers (Roland MPU-401 driver for Windows 3.1 & Windows 9x) from the page you suggested. I changed the PCMidi IRQ to 3 on the board itself as 2 was being used by ACPI. I then ran the add hardware wizard, it did NOT detect the device when I searched for it, so I just installed in manually and pointed to the drivers I downloaded which seemed to work. Winamp then was able to send midi out and that worked. But here is where things got weird.

I ran a DOS game in Windows (Doom in this case). I got a Blue Screen message, saying the application is trying to access a device that is in use by another application and asked me to enter Y to continue. So I did that and the game loaded fine and music was being sent to the SC-55 just fine. However as soon as I exited that game and tried to play a midi file in windows again it doesn't send any midi data 🙁 I have to reboot then it works again.

UPDATE: So I was curious why the MPU401 device still wasn't showing up in the Windows Device Manager, so I did the Add Hardware a second time and this time it did find it when searching.. once that was added the device showed up in Device Manager, the Blue Screen error went away saying the device was used by another application, and windows media players could play midi files again after playing a DOS game in Windows!!!! So all of this is resolved now 😀

One other thing, in pure DOS, OPL3 now works fine from my initial tests, Duke3D didn't give me the error saying it couldn't find the FM sound card. Dark Forces though still freezes when I try to select General Midi or GS for the music portion, but works ok if I select FM... so still have to trouble shoot that too.

So yeah, getting a little better.

Some more updates on the Orpheus 2 LT setup. For the most part things seem ok, but still struggling with a few issues.

1. Midi actually seems working well for the most part. Midi goes out the 1/8" jack on the back of the Orpheus 2, to my midi devices like the SC-55 then back into the Orpheus 2 LT, then back out to my speakers. This works well with everything I have thrown at it, Windows midi playback, Windows DOS mode games like Doom and Duke3D. It works fine in pure DOS too.

2. Pure windows games like Quake 2, Shogo MAD and others really don't seem to like the Crystal Audio. Its either scratchy/crackly or it lags slightly.. Whatever it is, Windows games don't like it right now. Thankfully I have the Audigy 2 in there, I just run Windows games through that card. Then DOS games, either in Windows DOS or pure DOS utilize the Orpheus 2 LT.

3. Two games though are still throwing me off, Tyrian2k and Dark Forces.

Dark Forces still locks my computer when I try to use GM or GS on port 330. FM works fine.

Tyrian in both pure DOS and Windows DOS Midi and FM work well. However the Digital Sound it scratchy/crackly like the other Windows games were when using the Orpheus 2 LT. However if I set it to DMA 0 this seems to solve that problem, think that's a known issue from what I have been reading though.

I guess questions for others are, do you have issues running Windows games with the Orpheus 2, are they crackly/laggy? Also any advice on how to fix Dark Forces would be very helpful, its one of my favorites 😀

glad to hear at least the windows issues got resolved
let's face it: adding/removing hardware on 9x is never something that ends up always in success 🤣 especially if there are prior soundcards installed

Dark Forces is nothing special, what you have now could very well be a game issue because the system is too fast
what happens if you run the setup program under windows and then run the game under pure DOS once the config is saved?

edit:
yeah Tyrian is a known issue and it's a CS4237 thing - so sadly there is nothing to be done unless someone can edit the game drivers and fix whatever makes CS4237 crap out
the windows sound issues you describe could be because there is also the Audigy2 installed - under normal circumstances these sound deficiencies are not present at all.
*maybe* CS4237 driver needs to be installed prior to Audigy2 one - or maybe just adding Audigy2 to the mix breaks/replaces something that Crystal driver does not like.
If you can try with a 2nd test HDD and a test 9x+Orpheus installation I am sure you will find there is no issue at all but I cannot be certain as to what to advise you to do so
both cards can co-exist peacefully, I'm afraid it's a trial and error situation.
Another viable "solution" would be to use audigy+pcmidi part under windows and orpheus+pcmidi under DOS thus you achieve the most compatibility without having to mess
with 2 cards...

keropi wrote on 2023-01-12, 17:33:

glad to hear at least the windows issues got resolved let's face it: adding/removing hardware on 9x is never something that ends […]
Show full quote

glad to hear at least the windows issues got resolved
let's face it: adding/removing hardware on 9x is never something that ends up always in success 🤣 especially if there are prior soundcards installed

Dark Forces is nothing special, what you have now could very well be a game issue because the system is too fast
what happens if you run the setup program under windows and then run the game under pure DOS once the config is saved?

edit:
yeah Tyrian is a known issue and it's a CS4237 thing - so sadly there is nothing to be done unless someone can edit the game drivers and fix whatever makes CS4237 crap out
the windows sound issues you describe could be because there is also the Audigy2 installed - under normal circumstances these sound deficiencies are not present at all.
*maybe* CS4237 driver needs to be installed prior to Audigy2 one - or maybe just adding Audigy2 to the mix breaks/replaces something that Crystal driver does not like.
If you can try with a 2nd test HDD and a test 9x+Orpheus installation I am sure you will find there is no issue at all but I cannot be certain as to what to advise you to do so
both cards can co-exist peacefully, I'm afraid it's a trial and error situation.
Another viable "solution" would be to use audigy+pcmidi part under windows and orpheus+pcmidi under DOS thus you achieve the most compatibility without having to mess
with 2 cards...

Yeah, I think really your last sentence really sums it up. Really need a sound card like a Awe64/Live/Audigy for Windows and can utilize the Orpheus for DOS games and Midi. That's kind of what I expected, was just thinking maybe the Crystal sound card would work ok in Windows 98 but it apparently struggles there.

As for Dark Forces, it won't even let me install it in Windows, it wants pure DOS only... I'll keep at it and let you know if I find a fix.

In this moment, only when Orphinit is ready we can change the jumper again and we will post on website drivers for windows9x. Now it works as an OrpheusI . This was a limited run of these cards. They are backwards compatible. Next cards will not have this feature. When software is ready, there will be further details here and on website.

@KuroHouou
maybe try already installed Dark Forces , does it's sound config setup work under windows? maybe the extra overhead will mask any potential issues and when the config is save the game can be used just fine under pure dos

keropi wrote on 2023-01-12, 17:33:

yeah Tyrian is a known issue and it's a CS4237 thing - so sadly there is nothing to be done unless someone can edit the game drivers and fix whatever makes CS4237 crap out

I'll just add that it's not only the CS4237 which has issues with Tyrian, that game has problems with other sound cards as well.

For example, the normally highly compatible ESS 1868F exhibits crackling and distortions when playing digital sounds in Tyrian. This is with Sound Blaster mode selected in setup. Note that Tyrian's WSS mode is even less compatible and only works on a couple of cards.

KuroHouou wrote on 2023-01-12, 17:31:

Dark Forces still locks my computer when I try to use GM or GS on port 330. FM works fine.

Maybe you haven't changed them, but both of the MPU settings should remain at their defaults when you have a PCMIDI-enabled board:

MPUBase=disabled
MPUIRQ=disabled

If you really want to use both MPU-401 interfaces, they have to use different I/O addresses and IRQs.

On faster systems, it is also possible for there to be insufficient delays for the CS4237, especially considering the number of titles with sloppy timing routines (especially for sound/music). You may want to try increasing the I/O recovery time, which is usually a BIOS setup option. You should only need to change the 8-bit recovery time for the CS4237, but try setting both as high as they will go to start, and see if that improves the situation.

I have a question about MIDI setup on the card, since I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy an Orpheus 2 when they're available.

Am I correct in thinking that to have two discrete MIDI outputs you need to set one of the outputs to be controlled by the PCMIDI and the other controlled by the Crystal? That would let them both have different IO addresses? For a long time I've wanted to be able to have my setup with an internal X2GS and an external MT32-Pi, but with my current card (a Labway YM71x variant) that wouldn't really be possible since the same MIDI is on the wavetable header and the gameport, but that seems like the Orpheus solves that problem. So on the Orpheus I could have internal wavetable for MIDI/SC55 support, and then an external MT32-Pi with its output going back through the Line-In of the Orpheus to mix it in. And as long as the MT32-Pi was on the PCMIDI side and the MIDI was on the Crystal MIDI they can have different IO addresses making it easier to swap between their use.

Am I off base here?

teiresias wrote on 2023-01-13, 15:17:

I have a question about MIDI setup on the card, since I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy an Orpheus 2 when they're available.
[...]

yep, that's exactly how things work
you use the midi routing jumper block to assign an MPU to an output and you enable pcmidi/cs4237-mpu with different ports so you get 2 discrete mpus working

keropi wrote on 2023-01-13, 16:39:

teiresias wrote on 2023-01-13, 15:17:

I have a question about MIDI setup on the card, since I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy an Orpheus 2 when they're available.
[...]

yep, that's exactly how things work
you use the midi routing jumper block to assign an MPU to an output and you enable pcmidi/cs4237-mpu with different ports so you get 2 discrete mpus working

Great! Looking forward to being able to put in an order eventually. In the meantime I have to wait for Raspberry Pi stock to actually exist so I can get an MT32-Pi running, haha.

640K!enough wrote on 2023-01-13, 06:51:

Maybe you haven't changed them, but both of the MPU settings should remain at their defaults when you have a PCMIDI-enabled boar […]
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KuroHouou wrote on 2023-01-12, 17:31:

Dark Forces still locks my computer when I try to use GM or GS on port 330. FM works fine.

Maybe you haven't changed them, but both of the MPU settings should remain at their defaults when you have a PCMIDI-enabled board:

MPUBase=disabled
MPUIRQ=disabled

If you really want to use both MPU-401 interfaces, they have to use different I/O addresses and IRQs.

On faster systems, it is also possible for there to be insufficient delays for the CS4237, especially considering the number of titles with sloppy timing routines (especially for sound/music). You may want to try increasing the I/O recovery time, which is usually a BIOS setup option. You should only need to change the 8-bit recovery time for the CS4237, but try setting both as high as they will go to start, and see if that improves the situation.

Well I think I finally solved the issue with Dark Forces.. very odd it only seemed to affect this one game but it turns out it was my Processor/Speed settings. I had it set to 133/33.25 instead of 100/33.43 which allows me to run the Tualatin at the full 1.4Ghz on this Asus P3B-F motherboard. Essentially overclocking it. So I guess the OC + Dark Forces + Orpheus don't like to work together, very strange that the couple other games I tried, Duke3D, Doom 1&2, Tyrian all worked fine though.. Guess Dark Forces is just a bit more temperamental! But at least now I know so I just have to tweak my bios before playing Dark Forces I guess.

Thanks everyone for the help in getting this setup, its a great card!! Can't wait for the full OPL3 support in Windows to come soon 😀 Might just play Dark Forces with that when it arrives.

Altering the system bus speed also alters the divider used on the ISA bus. Because it runs at such a lower clock, even minor adjustments are magnified. Some cards simply don't work properly if the bus speed has been altered.

Does anyone know if it's possible for an ISA bus to have its own clock chip, so to be unaffected by overclocking? Or must it be tied to the system bus? It may be due to cost or a technical limitation.