Oerg866 wrote on 2023-01-18, 16:00:

Errius wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:01:

To be fair, this is an emulator support forum. People who insist on running their games on 'old junk' are not really supposed to be here.

What the hell, though? Why offer Marvin and have it grow so much if it's unwanted here? That's kind of the problem. VOGONS even when it comes to talking about old hardware is too big to ignore, even with all the downsides.

The Marvin section is useful for emulator authors as it can give some insight about the quirks in the PC platform. I initially joined this forum just to mainly give some information about the vertical retrace interrupt on S3 video cards (it mentions some hardware which I no longer have) since no one bothered to check the datasheet for verification.

So yes, the talking about old hardware is too big to ignore yet. 😀

When I rebuilt my 486 in 2008 here (M919 AM586@160+s3trio64v+awe32=59.79speedsys), there wasn't an exponentially growing PC collection from there (I never caught "the bug"). That machine would later be used to crosscheck some bugs in DOSbox and PCem. It was then decommissioned for a PSU failure. There were no vogons peer pressure nor status symbols from it.

I've had my share of recieving "emulation abandonware fan" condescending before, despite, well...having had computers for at least 3 decades now and already had done real hardware captures that likely introduced some into the hobby (especially regarding PVR1 interest).

There's also that "3dfx rulez" meta gatekeeping I'm not a big fan of. A huge motivation behind my research into emulating the 3dfx video filter was to demystify the "3dfx just looks better!! so buy my $300+ card for best retro graphic's!" that goes around, thus lowering the barrier towards that "3dfx experience" and for posterity. 😀 I personally think the post-STB vendor-killing 3dfx brand refresh is horrible and I don't have much nostalgia for it. I also had grown a dislike for third-party modded drivers and how they're often "recommended". Sure, there's a lot of unique quirks 3dfx hardware does, but 3dfx's popular for the common stuff (blending, fog table, palettes, lean API and driver) rather than for the quirks and they're not the only cards around to cover that.

Finally.........I don't have any midi modules. 😀

Photography is another area with an elitism problem. The new generations of smartphones have some pretty fancy optics that make them competitive with much more expensive professional cameras, but of course smartphone photographers don't get any respect.

Errius wrote on 2023-01-18, 21:37:

Photography is another area with an elitism problem. The new generations of smartphones have some pretty fancy optics that make them competitive with much more expensive professional cameras, but of course smartphone photographers don't get any respect.

In general across hobbies/interests, radio, RC, android tablets, metal detectors, many more ... anything that has equipment of some kind in production, there are always some forums where they basically don't want to know you or talk about anything with you unless you're running the highest priced model released in the last 18 months. Basically a huge ego stroking feedback chamber for "look at us, aren't we just the most amazing people in the world for having the money to buy this crap." So yeah, best avoided those. They also seem to be very little help if you do actually have latest and greatest and have problems, it's either you're a complete idiot and did something wrong and how dare you accuse godly manufacturer of error, without actually telling you how to correct the mistake they assume you made, or just "warranty return or send it for authorised dealer repair" ... so basically useless.

leileilol wrote on 2023-01-18, 19:38:

Finally.........I don't have any midi modules. 😀

Get thee behind me, Satan!

I've gone through the 3dfx phase, and the midi stack phase, and the "1 machine for each era" phase, and ultimately have ended up back where I started. A handful of cheap, generic hardware that ticks my personal nostalgia boxes and some emulation to fill the holes. There's no wrong way to do it.

The only gatekeeping that bothers me is "you paid what for it ???!!! You're killing the hobby you monster! 🙁". That's just poor form and stops people sharing their fun.

I would probably fall afoul of gatekeepers. I have been doing most of my retro computing lately on an 8088 motherboard I assembled myself, with video card/floppy controller/hard drive controller/network card/sound card I also assembled myself. All running on a backplane I built as well.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:19:

We were fortunate here in Europe since the vast majority of our CRT TVs made after the 1980s had an RGB SCART port by default. Only the cheapest of the low-end models were RF only.

Here in Germany (in the middle of Europe) the situation was a bit different, I suppose.
I'm not saying the SCART argument was a lie, but it's just half the story.
Told by people who would like to remember things being better than they really were.

While those black, boxy "modern" TVs with their plastic chassis often had SCART inputs,
a lot of the older TVs from the 70s/early 80s looked like the one in the attachment.

Maybe even had a fake wooden chassis.
It were those old, used TVs that kids got for free to play with their C64s, ZX Spectrums and Nintendos.
- Just google for old photos of C64 owners from the 80s. The majority did use these classic TVs without SCART or Composite, even.

The Commodore 1702 and similar were video monitors or "computer" monitors that were around at the time, existed,
because of the lack for AV inputs on regular TVs and because of their low-resolution CRTs.

Edit: The 1702 also was my Nintendo monitor in the 90s.
Because it had Cinch (RCA) connectors that could be used for both NES/SNES.
This was something special back then, an upgrade from RF.
Thanks to the comb filter and the adjustment knobs things looked bearable, non-pixelated.
The Nintendo (NES) didn't include anything but an RF switchbox, by the way.
My father gave me an old Cinch cable with the old video monitor.
The Super Nintendo (that's how we called it, not SNES or Super NES) was my firsr console to include an AV cable in addition to thst switch box (3x Cinch with a paasive SCART adapter, no RGB).

Of course, if you bought a new TV in the late 80s/early 90s, it was a black plastic box.
Maybe with a square remote control, too.

But that was the difference between being a kid and a teenager/young adult.
If you got a new TV with your Nintendo or Sega, then that's a different story.

Same goes for the big TV in the living room, of course.
It maybe even had 100 Hz and PAL Plus at the time, not just SCART.

For example, if you were in your teenage years, chances were good that you got money for your communion.

Edit: Here's another colour TV, from the mid-80s. SCART-free, but with a remote (!)
It's a Robotron TV from former East Germany.
TVs like this were being sold in West Germany, too, via Quelle and other sellers.
They also were PAL compatible (GDR used SECAM and B/W, but many GDR citizens watched western TV channels, too).

SRC: https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/robo_radeb_rc6052rc_605.html

PS: Another thing that's being forgotten..
Not all video game magazines had access to digitizers (frame grabbers) in the 80s/early 90s.
Sometimes, they did use a camera to make screenshots.
This may look ridiculously amateurish these days, but back then this practice
simply "existed" in the same way as simple RF-only TVs in the bed rooms of kids and teenagers.
Ironically, also, these amateurish screenshots are sometimes those which are the most accurate.
They include the CRT in its function as a filtering mechanism.

leileilol wrote on 2023-01-18, 19:38:

Finally.........I don't have any midi modules. 😀

You monster!

I don't think there's any gate keeping in retro, just people making snarky comments trying to feel superior over others. (and I don't mean the sarcasm and jokes ^^)
I guess a lot of people spend money to feel superior, it's the classic trope of having to have a better house, a better car than your neighbor just so you can show off, the same applies to retro hardware and games, there's just many people that think that way in general, so obviously if someone gets to enjoy retro games without spending the same amount of money they did they probably feel "attacked" and have to go bully them.

I'm here 99% for the hardware, I just enjoy hardware just as much as old games (if not maybe more) and while I advocate for people to try to have an "authentic" (whatever that's supposed to mean) experience if they have the means that doesn't mean I would tell anyone off for using an emulator/dosbox, quite the contrary, even dosbox and other emulators give you a more authentic experience than re-release versions or ports... not that there's anything wrong with them either, hey everyone should just do whatever they enjoy and not get bothered by what other people enjoy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, idk why that is so hard nowadays.

null

imi wrote on 2023-01-19, 00:19:

I don't think there's any gate keeping in retro, just people making snarky comments trying to feel superior over others. (and I don't mean the sarcasm and jokes ^^)
I guess a lot of people spend money to feel superior, it's the classic trope of having to have a better house, a better car than your neighbor just so you can show off, the same applies to retro hardware and games, there's just many people that think that way in general, so obviously if someone gets to enjoy retro games without spending the same amount of money they did they probably feel "attacked" and have to go bully them.

I'm here 99% for the hardware, I just enjoy hardware just as much as old games (if not maybe more) and while I advocate for people to try to have an "authentic" (whatever that's supposed to mean) experience if they have the means that doesn't mean I would tell anyone off for using an emulator/dosbox, quite the contrary, even dosbox and other emulators give you a more authentic experience than re-release versions or ports... not that there's anything wrong with them either, hey everyone should just do whatever they enjoy and not get bothered by what other people enjoy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, idk why that is so hard nowadays.

You don't have to spend a lot of money to be attacked. All you have to do is buy Asus or install a fan on a passive heatsink with screws or use the "wrong" kind of thermal paste. That guy will be around soon, enough.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote on 2023-01-18, 16:15:

In fact, the reason I joined Vogons is to find out more about building the best retro PC to play the games I like. On the other hand, DOSBOX is pretty much straightforward that I hardly need help to play DOS games with it. If it was for DOSBOX alone I wouldn't be likely to join this forum, since running DOS games in DOSBOX tend to be straightforward and trouble-free.

I can relate to that, too, I think. I got to know Vogons because of DOSBox project (and VDMsound), originally.
Then, after learning about so many new old things in the community, I started tinkering with real hardware more again.
Nowadays, I'm still using DOSBox as well as physical DOS systems.

Personally, to me, each of them is great in its own way.
DOSBox has evolved to a point at which most things "just work".
Even better than with later projects, thanks to its fine and resource-saving programming.

That being said, however, it's good to have old hardware at hand and those "hardware hoarders" aboard here, as well.
This makes testing and improving emulation much more successful.
It's a win-win scenario, if both parties exchange their ideas and experience.

Oh, and you get to know new interesting people, too.
That's something that's not to be underestimated, I think. 🙂

Meatball wrote on 2023-01-19, 00:47:

imi wrote on 2023-01-19, 00:19:

I don't think there's any gate keeping in retro, just people making snarky comments trying to feel superior over others. (and I don't mean the sarcasm and jokes ^^)
I guess a lot of people spend money to feel superior, it's the classic trope of having to have a better house, a better car than your neighbor just so you can show off, the same applies to retro hardware and games, there's just many people that think that way in general, so obviously if someone gets to enjoy retro games without spending the same amount of money they did they probably feel "attacked" and have to go bully them.

I'm here 99% for the hardware, I just enjoy hardware just as much as old games (if not maybe more) and while I advocate for people to try to have an "authentic" (whatever that's supposed to mean) experience if they have the means that doesn't mean I would tell anyone off for using an emulator/dosbox, quite the contrary, even dosbox and other emulators give you a more authentic experience than re-release versions or ports... not that there's anything wrong with them either, hey everyone should just do whatever they enjoy and not get bothered by what other people enjoy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, idk why that is so hard nowadays.

You don't have to spend a lot of money to be attacked. All you have to do is buy Asus or install a fan on a passive heatsink with screws or use the "wrong" kind of thermal paste. That guy will be around soon, enough.

As soon as you mentioned ASUS hate I knew who you were referring too 🤣

It's not gatekeeping in the video. That is a mix of elitism along with ageism and a bit of misogyny mixed in. Either way, just figuring out that some people are mean on the Internet is silly to me. They have always existed, social media has just amplified their voices.

There are many different perspectives and mindsets in the retro computing hobby world, and that's part of what makes it such a great thing.

The things that bring all of us together are the desire to learn about the past and the will to experience the past while keeping it alive and accessible in the current day (and the future).

The things that differentiate us are our preferred way(s) of experiencing the past and the degree to which we allow it to interact with more modern amenities (whether by choice or by perceived necessity).

In my not-so-humble opinion, anybody who believes that being allowed to partake in discussions and access information about the past (in the context of retro computer tech, among other things) should be a privilege that depends on a person's age is either an ageist bigot, a pompous ass, an idiot or likely a combination of all three .

EDIT :

I don't care about people's age, gender identity, height, weight, body mass index, ethnicity, voting preferences, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc as long as they

a) show respect and understanding to others unless they are being disrespected or discriminated against
b) realize that their beliefs/opinions are no more or less important those of everyone else and can act accordingly
c) Make every effort to judge what others say/write based on the merits of their arguments, not on subjective perceptions/feelings. i.e. if the politician one happens to agree with the least comes up with a good idea and solid, verifiable arguments to back it up, discounting the idea because of who came up with it rather than on its merits is both dumb and counterproductive. On the flip side, having a good idea does not make an arguably bad politician good or worthy of a vote come election time .

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-18, 23:40:

Here in Germany (in the middle of Europe) the situation was a bit different, I suppose.
I'm not saying the SCART argument was a lie, but it's just half the story.
Told by people who would like to remember things being better than they really were.

My first introduction to SCART was from a German Blaupunkt VCR that my family bought in 1989. It had a SCART port, though it was labeled as EURO AV. It looked similar to this one:

Literally every TV that we bought after that point (i.e. from 1989 onward) also had a SCART port. I still have some of those TV sets, so it's not selective memory in my case.

badmojo wrote on 2023-01-18, 23:22:

Get thee behind me, Satan! […]
Show full quote

leileilol wrote on 2023-01-18, 19:38:

Finally.........I don't have any midi modules. 😀

Get thee behind me, Satan!

I've gone through the 3dfx phase, and the midi stack phase, and the "1 machine for each era" phase, and ultimately have ended up back where I started. A handful of cheap, generic hardware that ticks my personal nostalgia boxes and some emulation to fill the holes. There's no wrong way to do it.

The only gatekeeping that bothers me is "you paid what for it ???!!! You're killing the hobby you monster! 🙁". That's just poor form and stops people sharing their fun.

The last point is why I pretty much post less here, I pickup a lot of cool and interesting bits that I would love to share here but that last point always rears its fucking ugly head making any joy I get from sharing the hobby tainted.

I still share occasionally but far far less than I used to. (Its also the reason I don't do full build threads)

BTW for use with my Amiga 1200 in 1993, in UK I specifically sought out a Hitachi TV that had a 9 pin DIN RGB port (Might have been 7 pin, def wasn't 5) , and I think it was a mid 80s model. I remember getting the Amiga specific lead from a place that also had them for other systems and some consoles, but could not swear to which ones now, possibly the genesis and atari ST were included. So anyway, wasn't exactly an RGB desert back then, but only a fraction of regular users made the effort.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:32:

Yes, though even the "to stay what it was originally meant to be" part is problematic sometimes. […]
Show full quote

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:08:

I don't think that gate keeping is inherently bad or a problem. Gate keeping is only about preserving something to stay what it was originally meant to be instead of diluting it to be more inclusive for an audience who isn't even even interested in said thing.

Yes, though even the "to stay what it was originally meant to be" part is problematic sometimes.

There we have the RGB/SCART/pixel-perfect diehards and the scan lines aficionados, for example.

In reality, however, each platform was different.

The PC did have different video systems (CGA 15KHz with blurry screens or mono monitors, VGA with scan doubled lines, Hi-res Hercules etc), not just one in particular.

However, by contrast, the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive didn't use RGB video in practice, not even Composite.
The default video was RF. All other connections were available - but optional, non-standard.

Players had to buy these cables in a games shop, needed a real video monitor to use them.

The old TVs kids got from grandparents or older siblings often were RF only.
Games were designed to look good on RF, thus.

This is something that gets mixed up by all those preservatives -err- preservists, I'm afraid. 😉

Just because the development systems for said video games were high-end and used RGB monitors with a fine dot pitch doesn't mean that developers used them as a reference.

The game studios had their own game testers with bog standard game consoles connected to all sorts of TVs.

The refusal to check games on old TV sets with RF input is something that silently depresses me,
as someone who lived with that old tech in past times.

That's something I like emulators for, by the way.
Emulators allow the simulation of blurry NTSC or PAL video monitors:
Kega Fusion has a nice NTSC and RF filter, Vice64 has good PAL emulation.

Strictly speaking, emulators are no contradiction to real hardware, I think.
They always were being around in one form or another.
To me, emulators are fine development tools, rather. Just like assembler/disassembler, debugger or EPROM simulators. ^^

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:08:

Also, the thing in the video is not gate keeping, just plain social media toxicity. Don't confuse the two things. Retro gaming/computing is very much immune to true gate keeping.

Good point. Though I also noticed some exceptions.
People got upset about a company which dared to create/sell transparent replica cases for the C64 (using the original mold).
It was/is a no go to those C64 users. They think it's a sacrilege or something, because the transparent version was a special edition/limited edition.
Makes me wonder what happens if the chassis of the holy golden C64 is being replicated eventually. 😰

And these are tribalists and purists which should also not to be confused with gate keeping. They are all arguments about what's the most correct way among all the correct ways to do retro.

Gate keeping can be positive gate keeping, like the one which pops up after every new From Software game release about whether their games should have easier difficulty modes for accessibility. It's an instance when people who have no real interest in experiencing the media as it is intended to be want to invade and change it for their taste. A lack of respect, newcomers or worse, complete outsiders telling experts of a hobby how it would be better, generally by compromising its foundations.

The negative gate keeping is when people chase away newcomers with genuine interest.

I can't help but think that a portion of the problem with gatekeeping and or toxicity in fandoms and hobbies like this comes from the people who naturally find themselves interested in them before there was more mainstream appeal. As someone who is on the more functional side of the spectrum, I see a lot of missed social cues and a lot of people who are seemingly offput by others not being as deeply in to something as they are, especially when the communities are old themselves. That said, it's good than things have been becoming a bit more collaborative over the years. Helps ease some people in to being less, well, dickish.

As for the vogons discussion, Marvin is a gateway drug. It's like a less daunting VCF, even if it's heavily 1990s DOS. Me wanting to get Republic commando working with native bumpmapping is how I got in to this hole, and luckily I've been lucky in both my timing and ability to spot some particular hardware. I can thank y'all for letting me know that $5 was a great deal for an AWE64 Gold with a memory module. And, over time, my attitude on old stuff has changed from wanting things, to wanting to help people I know to enjoy things.