Tetrium wrote on 2023-01-20, 22:46:

Scalpers will scalp anything they can make a profit off. This includes retro hardware as well as modern hardware. Generally spea […]
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Anders- wrote on 2023-01-20, 22:21:

Prices are up, maybe we're looking at this from different time frames? What's the period over which you compare prices when you […]
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Mandrew wrote on 2023-01-20, 20:24:

For certain niché items for sure. Generally speaking not so much. I think you misunderstand Ebay BIN prices and sold prices. BIN doesn't mean they can actually sell those things at that price. Hell, I want to sell my house for $1m but nobody would actually pay that.

Scalpers don't just buy one item and leave some for collectors, they buy everything they can in bulk and sell it for profit. How is that less of a problem? The average collector simply doesn't have enough storage space to hoard that much so he has to sell things eventually. People also get bored of things so the hardware finds its way back to the market one way or the other. You also sold 50% of your stuff, right? People get older and get other priorities so piling up tons of stuff is almost never permanent when it actually takes up valuable space. Ask an average wife if she wants to live in a house full of computers or start a family when the cupboards are lined with e-waste from the 80's.

Prices are up, maybe we're looking at this from different time frames? What's the period over which you compare prices when you say they don't go up?

Compare a scalper trying to grab all the newest graphics cards with a hoarder obsessed with aquiring the umc486-40 - which one do you think will run out of storage space first? Not everything retro has to do with bulky printers or crts. While I agree that hoarders can sell some items back, I'm sure plenty hang on to things forever (part of the "hoarding" syndrome).
The stuff I got rid of I just dumped in the electronics container at the nearest recycling plant, selling wasn't on my mind (too much hassle). Maybe someone else picked up a few items, I don't know.

Scalpers will scalp anything they can make a profit off. This includes retro hardware as well as modern hardware.
Generally speaking they care less about what items they are scalping as long as it's in sellable condition.
Scalpers will tend to not handle hardware (especially non-boxed older hardware) with the care it needs and may end up tossing parts on piles where usually a collector will hoard items they want to use themselves one day.

Yes, hoarders will hang onto stuff that otherwise would have been destroyed anyway. So if anything, hoarders actually increase the amount of parts available on the market and thus lower prices, if anything at all.

So you dumped your stuff instead of keeping it? You mean you had retro hardware and got rid of it and then later on regretted it?

Of course, profit is what matters. Lately the focus seems to have been on high-end gfx cards.
Hoarders keeping things from getting scrapped is good, but as long as items stay in the garage it's not on the market.

Yep, I dumped stuff, no more room in the house. A few items I regret ditching, went from "keep everything" to "keep only things I like to play with". No ragrets.

Anders- wrote on 2023-01-20, 23:11:

If you wanted to talk about hoarding and not "angry folks on the internet" you quoted the wrong post. I still think you complete […]
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Tetrium wrote on 2023-01-20, 22:37:

Anders- wrote on 2023-01-20, 22:08:

My reply here was obviously meant as a joke, but for some reason you didn't get that. (hint, look at the quoted messages)

I'm referencing to your statement that hoarding causes price inflation. You have yet to back this up in any way.
I'm not stupid. I just don't really care about your attempt at humor.

If you wanted to talk about hoarding and not "angry folks on the internet" you quoted the wrong post.
I still think you completely missed the joke due to being upset though 😁

Tetrium wrote on 2023-01-20, 22:37:

I understand how this works. But here you come in with a statement which, at best, is some kind of flamebait, at worst you are j […]
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Anders- wrote on 2023-01-20, 22:12:

I'm sorry that you don't (or want to) understand how things work, nothing I can do about that.

I understand how this works. But here you come in with a statement which, at best, is some kind of flamebait, at worst you are just very misinformed or ignorant.

I also want to point out that saying a member who doesn't agree with you 'doesn't understand how things work, nothing you can do about it' is also not the way to go around doing things here. Instead of trying to do some half-arsed personal attacks, perhaps you should clarify your position instead of playing dumb and being an asshat.

I and a few others have already explained how your statement is not true. You're just ignoring it and keep repeating your (false) statement. We're not stupid you know.

Ok, one last time. There is a thing called supply and demand, the retro market is not spared from this, the fewer items you have available of something the more valuable it becomes.
Hoarders who hog lots of stuff contribute to driving up the prices. What exactly of this is it that you don't agree with?

I agree that personal attacks should be avoided. For instance, you might want to rethink your strategy of accusing a member you don't agree with of spreading a lie.

Tetrium wrote on 2023-01-20, 12:46:

[...] as far as I'm concerned, you're just trying to spread a lie [...]

Hoarders don't contribute to rising prices as they tend to hoard the stuff when there's no interest in it. It doesn't cause a rise in price as prices are basically gold scrapping value.
Them having a large amount that nobody else may know about has no influence on prices at all as the collector and his collection have no influence on the market. You seem to think they do, but they generally don't.
If you're worried about supply and demand, worry about the scalpers as they don't save hardware from getting scrapped (or at least at a much lower volume as they may also preclude real collectors from getting their stuff more cheaply).
If anything hoarders cause price drops once they start liquidating their collections.

And you can cut out the derogative comments. This includes pulling parts of comments out of context and then making false accusations based on those comments (the straw man).

Like I said, I'm not stupid. All of the underlined parts in your last reply is all toxic.

This thread has become an Anders and Tetrium TED Talk, you should both take a step back and leave it be for a bit before it gets this thread shut down.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-01-21, 02:10:

This thread has become an Anders and Tetrium TED Talk, you should both take a step back and leave it be for a bit before it gets this thread shut down.

A bit too late, I had already reported it.
Tbf, with the flamebaiting and toxicity in this thread, I wouldn't really mind it be locked.

Tetrium wrote on 2023-01-21, 02:29:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-01-21, 02:10:

This thread has become an Anders and Tetrium TED Talk, you should both take a step back and leave it be for a bit before it gets this thread shut down.

A bit too late, I had already reported it.
Tbf, with the flamebaiting and toxicity in this thread, I wouldn't really mind it be locked.

I understand and its likely for the best that it gets locked, this topic was bound to cause rifts between people.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-01-21, 02:10:

This thread has become an Anders and Tetrium TED Talk, you should both take a step back and leave it be for a bit before it gets this thread shut down.

Yep, I think that this thread should be locked. Enough has been already said.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-01-21, 04:16:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-01-21, 02:10:

This thread has become an Anders and Tetrium TED Talk, you should both take a step back and leave it be for a bit before it gets this thread shut down.

Yep, I think that this thread should be locked. Enough has been already said.

Hm. I must admit I'm a bit perplexed.

When I opened this thread, was totally relaxed and
thought it was a totally harmless thing to do.

I assume that Mr. Grönemeyer, that German singer,
was in a similar situation when he wrote his song "Kinder an die Macht" (power to the children).
He wrote this song, if I understand correctly, as a compensation for his previous songs that he thought to be questionable.
Ironically, though, it was exactly this children song that caused a heavy outrage.

Moral of the story: Assume that the whole world is a crazy place. 🥲

Edit: Hm. The more I think about it, the more I agree that closing this thread isn't so wrong, after all.

To my defense:
This is one of the moments in which I'm realizing how out of touch I'm with society.
Mentally, I'm still living in 90s Germany, I guess.

Many of the things I consider to be harmless or debatable casually on a kitchen table,
do seem cause extreme reactions in other parts of the world.

For example, it didn't occur to me that people these days define themselves so much by their job or gender.
Edit: Or that money is such a driving factor, also in the hobby.
To me, my family/friends, the health of our pets and hobbies/interests are important.
And the health of our planet, including animals/plants. The rest is secondary. Cars are tertiary (hurray for bicycles and trains/trams).

Anyway, perhaps that's part of my problem.
I'll try to double check next time before opening a thread.

Thanks everyone for visiting and posting here. 🙂👍

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-21, 04:43:

Hm. I must admit I'm a bit perplexed. […]
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Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-01-21, 04:16:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-01-21, 02:10:

This thread has become an Anders and Tetrium TED Talk, you should both take a step back and leave it be for a bit before it gets this thread shut down.

Yep, I think that this thread should be locked. Enough has been already said.

Hm. I must admit I'm a bit perplexed.

When I opened this thread, was totally relaxed and
thought it was a totally harmless thing to do.

I assume that Mr. Grönemeyer, that German singer,
was in a similar situation when he wrote his song "Kinder an die Macht" (power to the children).
He wrote this song, if I understand correctly, as a compensation for his previous songs that he thought to be questionable.
Ironically, though, it was exactly this children song that caused a heavy outrage.

Moral of the story: Assume that the whole world is a crazy place. 🥲

Edit: Hm. The more I think about it, the more I agree that closing this thread isn't so wrong, after all.

To my defense:
This is one of the moments in which I'm realizing how out of touch I'm with society.
Mentally, I'm still living in 90s Germany, I guess.

Many of the things I consider to be harmless or debatable casually on a kitchen table,
do seem cause extreme reactions in other parts of the world.

For example, it didn't occur to me that people these days define themselves so much by their job or gender.
Edit: Or that money is such a driving factor, also in the hobby.
To me, my family/friends, the health of our pets and hobbies/interests are important.
And the health of our planet, including animals/plants. The rest is secondary. Cars are tertiary (hurray for bicycles and trains/trams).

Anyway, perhaps that's part of my problem.
I'll try to double check next time before opening a thread.

Thanks everyone for visiting and posting here. 🙂👍

If there is one thing you can be 100% sure about, German sensibility doesn't extend to the rest of the world.

Its a bit crazy out here yup!

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-21, 04:43:

For example, it didn't occur to me that people these days define themselves so much by their job or gender.

I think that was always a thing. Well, not gender THAT much, but other things like job or status. Anyone watched American Psycho? "Current" society promotes shallowness.

Anders- wrote on 2023-01-20, 22:21:

Prices are up, maybe we're looking at this from different time frames? What's the period over which you compare prices when you say they don't go up?

Compare a scalper trying to grab all the newest graphics cards with a hoarder obsessed with aquiring the umc486-40 - which one do you think will run out of storage space first? Not everything retro has to do with bulky printers or crts. While I agree that hoarders can sell some items back, I'm sure plenty hang on to things forever (part of the "hoarding" syndrome).
The stuff I got rid of I just dumped in the electronics container at the nearest recycling plant, selling wasn't on my mind (too much hassle). Maybe someone else picked up a few items, I don't know.

Correction: prices are up on Ebay for some items but not on the rest of the platforms. Local auction sites, classifieds, ewaste sites and other collectors are still the best source for this kind of thing if you don't want to pay too much. We even have annual meetings to discuss the topic and do some good old fashioned barter. Ebay is the worst place when you are looking for a fair deal but still, sold prices are nowhere near the BIN prices which proves that prices are only bad when you BIN. The market sets the value itself when you do auctions.
The collector is going to run out of space first because the scalper has a business with a storage unit and he is constantly selling/renewing his stock.

First you bash collectors, then you say that you had a huge collection, now you say that you dumped like half of it in the trash. Found the troll.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-01-19, 17:37:

As for gatekeeping, speaking for myself it does exist more and more in this hobby and I have felt it too. It's getting more and more similar to audiophile "culture", with the same attitude and lack of culture and knowledge sharing to which Vogons is a great exception, hence why I'm here. The only difference is that gatekeepers in our hobby are more knowledgeable than audiophiles, who are by far the most ignorant and most arrogant at the same time, which is the absolute worst combination, to be that confident while lacking any true technical knowledge or most of the times even the basic of basics about acoustics and electrotechnical knowledge.

There are audiophiles and there are audiophiles. The snobbish, elitist audiophiles seemed to heavily intersect with audiofools. That is, gullible consumers with more money than knowledge, who naively believe that sticking certain rocks to your amplifier will make your system sound better.

On the other hand, genuine audiophiles are nowhere like you've described. Sure, there are brand wars there and there ("vintage Sansui rocks and NAD sucks, nyaaaah nyaaaaaah!"), but in general, they are nice people who are more than eager to share their knowledge. In 2013 I became an audiophile again after abandoning the hobby for decades, and I found people on Audiokarma pretty nice and helpful to a born-again audiophile like me.

Standard Electronics SR-157SU, my first amplifier when I was 12 years-old, before I abandoned the hobby for decades.

I've never joined DIY Audio nor Audiogon, merely a passive reader, but the members seem to be helpful and more than willing to share their knowledge. Heck, I've been a passive reader to forum posts made by Ken Kantor, Nelson Pass, and Siegfried Linkwitz, and their posts suggest that they're anything but gatekeepers. On the contrary, Nelson Pass often encourages his readers to be a DIY audiophile like himself. "Come on, try it yourself, it's fun" attitude.

But you don't even have to look too far. Here you would find people like obobskivich and gdjacobs who are nice and helpful, definitely not gatekeepers.

gdjacobs wrote on 2017-12-26, 15:14:

Indeed, that is strange. What about the impedance curves?

There probably are toxic audiophiles, but calling such toxicity "audiophile culture" is false generalization.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-01-19, 17:37:

In our hobby to me that translates more into what was said here, if you don't have component A or B you are not having the true experience, hence "they" tend to recommend the absolute best of a particular class of hardware while 95% of people would be more than happy with cheaper and more readily available hardware with perfectly good or even great results.

But as someone said before in this thread people went so deep into the rabbit hole and spent so much time and money that they have no choice but to cling to the most absolute of extremes to justify and protect their position.

Back to the topic, I honestly never encountered the attitude you describe here. Sure, only Voodoo5 5500 can enable FSAA on GLide games, but some people here prefer Voodoo3 for their own reason, while others are fine with that.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-21, 04:43:

Anyway, perhaps that's part of my problem.
I'll try to double check next time before opening a thread.

I don't think you did anything wrong here at all, there's always just those few that can't restrain themselves and try to ruin it for everyone else, which just goes on to drive home the point of the original argument.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-21, 04:43:

Anyway, perhaps that's part of my problem.
I'll try to double check next time before opening a thread.

Thanks everyone for visiting and posting here. 🙂👍

Eh, not your fault. There is nothing wrong with this thread per se. There are people who like to crap on threads, but it's hardly the thread creator's fault.

That would be different if you open a thread about goatse, tubgirl, or lemonparty, but this thread is not such kind of thread.

Anders- wrote on 2023-01-20, 23:11:

Ok, one last time. There is a thing called supply and demand, the retro market is not spared from this, the fewer items you have available of something the more valuable it becomes.
Hoarders who hog lots of stuff contribute to driving up the prices. What exactly of this is it that you don't agree with?

Do prove that hardware collectors --or 'hoarders'-- as you said it, are significant enough to noticeably affect supply, demand, and prices of retro computer hardware, compared to, say, gold scrappers.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote on 2023-01-21, 08:38:

There are audiophiles and there are audiophiles. The snobbish, elitist audiophiles seemed to heavily intersect with audiofools. […]
Show full quote

andre_6 wrote on 2023-01-19, 17:37:

As for gatekeeping, speaking for myself it does exist more and more in this hobby and I have felt it too. It's getting more and more similar to audiophile "culture", with the same attitude and lack of culture and knowledge sharing to which Vogons is a great exception, hence why I'm here. The only difference is that gatekeepers in our hobby are more knowledgeable than audiophiles, who are by far the most ignorant and most arrogant at the same time, which is the absolute worst combination, to be that confident while lacking any true technical knowledge or most of the times even the basic of basics about acoustics and electrotechnical knowledge.

There are audiophiles and there are audiophiles. The snobbish, elitist audiophiles seemed to heavily intersect with audiofools. That is, gullible consumers with more money than knowledge, who naively believe that sticking certain rocks to your amplifier will make your system sound better.

On the other hand, genuine audiophiles are nowhere like you've described. Sure, there are brand wars there and there ("vintage Sansui rocks and NAD sucks, nyaaaah nyaaaaaah!"), but in general, they are nice people who are more than eager to share their knowledge. In 2013 I became an audiophile again after abandoning the hobby for decades, and I found people on Audiokarma pretty nice and helpful to a born-again audiophile like me.

Standard Electronics SR-157SU, my first amplifier when I was 12 years-old, before I abandoned the hobby for decades.

I've never joined DIY Audio nor Audiogon, merely a passive reader, but the members seem to be helpful and more than willing to share their knowledge. Heck, I've been a passive reader to forum posts made by Ken Kantor, Nelson Pass, and Siegfried Linkwitz, and their posts suggest that they're anything but gatekeepers. On the contrary, Nelson Pass often encourages his readers to be a DIY audiophile like himself. "Come on, try it yourself, it's fun" attitude.

But you don't even have to look too far. Here you would find people like obobskivich and gdjacobs who are nice and helpful, definitely not gatekeepers.

gdjacobs wrote on 2017-12-26, 15:14:

Indeed, that is strange. What about the impedance curves?

There probably are toxic audiophiles, but calling such toxicity "audiophile culture" is false generalization.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-01-19, 17:37:

In our hobby to me that translates more into what was said here, if you don't have component A or B you are not having the true experience, hence "they" tend to recommend the absolute best of a particular class of hardware while 95% of people would be more than happy with cheaper and more readily available hardware with perfectly good or even great results.

But as someone said before in this thread people went so deep into the rabbit hole and spent so much time and money that they have no choice but to cling to the most absolute of extremes to justify and protect their position.

Back to the topic, I honestly never encountered the attitude you describe here. Sure, only Voodoo5 5500 can enable FSAA on GLide games, but some people here prefer Voodoo3 for their own reason, while others are fine with that.

Hi Kreshna, I was referring to the attitudes I've seen and experienced in real life in both examples, I probably didn't underline that and ignored forums. I wouldn't know about audio / audiophile forums or even vintage/retro computer forums apart from Vogons. I would think that if someone is actively registered in audio or retro PC forums like people that come here to Vogons it's because they're predisposed to dialogue, exchange and learn information, and if possible help some people along the way I imagine. In real life regarding audiophiles I haven't had many good experiences in quantity, but the very few I've found that were positive more than make up in quality, so it's not that big of a concern for me in the end, you point it out and move on.

As for Vogons you are right, like I said, it's the only forum I'm registered in, and the amount of times people here helped me solving problems or learning more than vindicates that decision. As an amateur learning user I've never felt anything else than understanding from others regarding my lack of knowledge. Watching other threads around here I always got more of a sense of helping in order to optimize what one has rather than imposing specific hardware as a golden rule or rite of passage. Of course sometimes one has no choice other than getting new stuff but we've all been there, it's not exactly a sacrifice!

That amplifier is a real gem. Now don't you diss NAD even if just to illustrate a point, those are fighting words! 😁

Yes, sorry to have to close it but people insulting each other goes too far.