VOGONS


First post, by SETBLASTER

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More than 20 years have passed and i still find incredible that after installing windows ME and installing a couple of drivers, it was a BSOD festival.

Since i skipped that OS because of that, i find it hard to belive that many people liked it and did not get any problem at all with it with their PC.
Sadly i did not know why that happened back then, besides we all moved to windows XP after a short time.

Now looking at what really happened i think it was all a mix of WDM and VxD drivers the cause for so many BSODs? and in order to use windows Me without problems you should go with all WDM drivers to have a good experience?

Sadly back then i owned a tv tuner card to capture some tv shows, A PENTIUM3 with a 440BX can´t be the cause of it because it is rock solid. A sound blaster64 and maybe a Diamond TNT videocard.
so the reason for BSOD must have been one of those drivers, because the company that released the hardware never cared to do WDM drivers and released only VxD drivers.

just trying to understand some rules to follow in order to get a windows me experience without blowing it up.

Reply 1 of 36, by Joseph_Joestar

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I've been using WinME on my Athlon64 system for a while now, and it's been fairly ok. Not sure what the ideal setup for that OS would be, but here's what I do.

First, immediately after installing WinME, I disable System Restore. It's supposedly buggy (under WinME) and I never use it anyway, so that's one worry less. Then, I apply this Microsoft Security Update CD. Lastly, I install DirectX 9.0c since I'm using a GeForce FX card. This generally gives me good results, and stability isn't much different compared to my Win98SE rigs.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
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Reply 2 of 36, by LSS10999

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There may be some factors triggering the instabilities. Recently I've been experimenting with WinME myself on VMs as well as on real PCs, mainly due to the new revelations regarding using real-mode MS-DOS 8.0. For some reasons, these new WinME instances were surprisingly stable.

Video cards might be a probable cause. Back then when WinME was still relevant, I was using a Trident Blade video card that had a lot of issues from screen glitches to outright hangs on Win9x, as well as the inability to properly shut down the system on Win2K due to its driver causing a 0x9F BSOD. It seems nVidia drivers are relatively better written in comparison and tend to cause fewer issues. I can't say much about ATI as I don't have a Radeon that were within the period of Win9x/ME support, though it should be good enough.

On the other hand, some external factors may also affect system stability. Back then the system I was using had a failing hard disk, faulty CPU fan, and some other failing hardware that had to be replaced. By the time all the parts got replaced, I've already moved on to Win2K/XP... Sincerely, I kinda feel sorry for WinME having to take the blame for many problems that weren't even its fault to begin with, as many of those instabilities were in fact caused by the failing hardware rather than the system itself.

I don't think sound cards are the cause of issues. Both VxD and WDM have pros and cons. For some popular PCI audio cards, MS even had built-in WDM drivers with WinME (which eventually got into XP as well) that sometimes provide different features compared to vendor WDM ones.

Still, I think one should be careful with disk operations inside Win9x/ME in general, as compared to NT-based Windows, they tend to be problematic and could cause unexpected, potentially catastrophic corruptions that are not always reproducible. At one time I had a WinME install borked by such a corruption when installing updates, and had to reinstall since the corruption destroyed the directory entry of C:\WINDOWS in the file system. However, I could not reproduce the corruption anymore after reinstalling the system and repeating the very same procedures of installing updates...

Reply 3 of 36, by chinny22

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We forget that bluescreens where just a normal part of life upto the XP era. It's why Windows 2000 became my favourite "9x OS" few years ago. Still has the retro feel but 100 times more stable.
I still use 98 over ME but same rules apply.

For stability stick with hardware with good drivers. Intel and Nvidia are the safe bets here and unlike 20 years ago drivers have matured and most the bugs of earlier versions have been ironed out.

Less is more. Back then we installed/uninstalled/reinstalled/updated all sorts of horrible things like Real Player, IM programs, browsers, etc.
Where as now its probably only going to be used for games which only really needs DirectX and probably virtual CD drive anything else is optional

Reply 4 of 36, by andre_6

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Recently I made a 1.4Ghz Tualatin build and used WinME as a reason to do it, I never had WinME installed on a build before. I absolutely loved it, it's the perfect bridge between Win98SE and XP for me. I think that having mature drivers after all this time made all the difference, very probably that was the cause back then. If you want a Win9x build exclusively for Win9x games you really can't do much better, but using the DOS box within WinME won't be a problem either if you want to. Lots of gaming benchmarks put WinME ahead or close to it vs. Win98SE and 2000 / XP in most of the games tested. After experiencing the 1.4Ghz Tualatin with a 9600 Pro and a HDA Mystique, I can safely say that preference wise I would never play GTA III, Vice City, Max Payne etc. on any other build.

If you wish disable System Restore, enable DMA on your HDD and CD Drives, etc. I think there are workarounds to fully enable DOS but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Fast booting, feels very smooth, I love the ambiance and optimism it expresses. Even the WinME startup sound is a true pleasure to hear every time! I'm very confident you'll like it. It's now my favorite computer, I even built another one just like the first one as I liked it so much.

Reply 5 of 36, by ptr1ck

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I prefer to dual boot DOS/ME instead of just running 98. I like the newer icon set and file explorer features over 98 also.

I do pretty much what Joseph Joestar said. I have all the official updates for ME installed and do not use system restore. I also never touch those unofficial updates or patches. My system is built within 9x specs with 512mb of RAM and a 60gb HDD.

"ITXBOX" SFF-Win11
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Reply 6 of 36, by pentiumspeed

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98SE was crashy when I was using socket 462 boards due to poor designs even I had good power supply. Before that, P2B was much more stable. When I went to XP, I was using P5K and Optiplex 780 later on then on same machine went to 7 then windows 10 Pro. Stable.

Cheers,

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Reply 7 of 36, by Tetrium

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I've written a guide about how to install WinME years ago. It's not perfect, but the main idea is to not yolo and try out all kinds of different drivers and (untested) hardware.
Instead, go it one at a time.

In short:
Use tested hardware which you know is good. Start with the minimum needed to boot the system (no sound, no NIC, 1 stick of RAM etc, basic PCI graphics card, optical drive and harddrive), then install WinME and after reaching the desktop then start installing your preferred hardware (+ the proper graphics card) + drivers one by one.
I always disabled system restore and PC health and I always installed WinME on its own C partition, keeping all else on the D partition.
I've always used my own programs and I've tried my fair share of tweaks, but preferences will differ from person to person.

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Reply 8 of 36, by schmatzler

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I installed WinME on my Abit VH6T a while ago and it ran very stable...until I installed the VXD drivers for my OpTi Mad16 Pro sound card. Then it crashed very often.

So I guess WinME really doesn't like VXD drivers. I stick to WDM drivers now when I use it.

"Windows 98's natural state is locked up"

Reply 9 of 36, by the3dfxdude

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Yeah, I don't understand what all the fuss is about with ME being unstable. It does have some problems, but they are easily mitigated, as what people say, turn off system restore, run some patches (fewer than 95/98!). Really WinME does represent the best of the of 9x series had to offer. The only reason not to run it, is if your computer is too old, or possibly too new? (I know people can figure out some amazing things)

Win95 is probably the "buggiest" but better than Win3.1 for 32-bit applications and performance (obvious). It is great on older machines than ME can't do. Things started to go more south with IE4 active desktop being released for Win95.

Win98 FE (the original) on release day was pretty rough because of IE4, and still was famously buggy. SE things started to improve (not unlike Win95 B), and had some longer life compared to other 9x's. (... but on that Win95 still has life too... when fully patched as well, so I would find Win95 and 98 comparable, especially if you are gonna run IE4 ... bleh)

WinME is basically Win98 reskinned to looking like 2000/XP, fully patched, and maybe even gave 9x series a year longer life for those that bothered to stay on 9x than it would have if MS never released it. Many people use WinME components on 98 for a reason... it's newer/better!

Having run many machines with WinME back in the day, and revisiting it today ... it feel like a great, modernish Windows! True it's the old kernel, but if you ignore the productivity reasons to move to WinXP (all obsolete applications now), what's really different about WinME, especially on contemporary machines?

As for blue screens, I hardly saw them by the time WinME rolled in. Can't say it was really that bad. I've mentioned this a number of times, I think the rep that it got was because Microsoft itself wanted to kill it quickly! I think they're ultimately why these rumors are around. How are blue screens in WinME really any different than the older windows? Or even newer?

SETBLASTER wrote on 2023-02-06, 05:47:

More than 20 years have passed and i still find incredible that after installing windows ME and installing a couple of drivers, it was a BSOD festival.

That bad? Sorry, I don't think it has anything to do with the driver model. (VXD vs WDM). Win98 has support for WDM, and installs that for many cards by default too. If anything, WinME should be better as it lifts even more support code from the latest NT/XP branch that was contemporary at the time. I think your issue is specific to your machine, which possibly could be solved by investigating. I wouldn't try to strike up a rule of thumb on what the stability issues are by this. I'm not clear if you're using a P3 440BX on this. Are you saying that Win98 would be better on this, or XP? Whatever you pick, and why, I'd like to hear, or see that you solve the problem on WinME.

schmatzler wrote:

I installed WinME on my Abit VH6T a while ago and it ran very stable...until I installed the VXD drivers for my OpTi Mad16 Pro sound card. Then it crashed very often.

So I guess WinME really doesn't like VXD drivers. I stick to WDM drivers now when I use it.

I've switched between WDM to VXD for ESS and Creative, for the known reasons, but not for blue screens. Both were fine. I can't remember if there were any other cards I have tried on this OS. So the more likely reasons are buggy drivers. It can be that buggy VXD drivers were more likely to cause the system to be unstable, and why they were being phased out. But that kind of points the blame at Opti.

Reply 10 of 36, by The Serpent Rider

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Windows ME is Windows 98SE with installed bloatware, gimped DOS mode and questionable stability with VXD driver model. Hardly best what 9x can offer =P

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 11 of 36, by Tiido

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I haven't had any issues with VXDs in general, the ones that cause problems also do so on 98SE. From my experience, not using Creative is the primary way to have a stable system, either 98SE or ME, nvidia drivers often cause problems too, especially when one wants to use DOS stuff from Windows itself.

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Reply 12 of 36, by ptr1ck

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If I recall correctly, ME didn't like to be setup while my ESS1869 is installed. It detects it incorrectly and crashes on start up.

I'm using it and an Audigy 2 simultaneously. The ESS uses the default Windows WDM driver,
Audigy uses the VXD option. I run pass thru the ESS.

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Reply 13 of 36, by leileilol

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don't use aureal cards

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-02-06, 21:42:

Windows ME is Windows 98SE with installed bloatware,

Movie Maker was great. The other "bloat" would be installing the OOB driver cabs on hdd.

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long live PCem

Reply 14 of 36, by Gmlb256

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the3dfxdude wrote on 2023-02-06, 21:35:

The only reason not to run it, is if your computer is too old, or possibly too new? (I know people can figure out some amazing things)

The only reason not to run it is because the MS-DOS mode was more limited than the previous versions of Windows 9x, even with that hack that supposedly "restores" it.

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Reply 15 of 36, by andre_6

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I don't remember at the time like many here do nor do I have the technical acumen, but nowadays I'm 1000% sure from present experience that Win98SE is waaaay more unstable and picky than WinME. The amount of nuances and attention to detail needed to get it configured to WinME's stability level from the get go has no comparison with the latter. I always felt like I was walking on eggshells throughout, in every single time I reinstalled it and reconfigured it out of necessity. And when it's all long finished, out of the blue something may just crash that one time or something may stop working more permanently just because, even though you haven't changed a single file for months.

For example, Live! cards were a particular nightmare on Win98SE for me, in both .vxd or .wdm., even the "best versions" of Live! cards. Never found adequate drivers for it that worked 100% with no problems despite ravaging Vogons' library and beyond, and right at the end I even discovered the drivers themselves were what was keeping the PC from restarting through Windows, not Nusb in any version which some people kindly suggested. The same Live! card on WinME? Flawless. I considered Joseph Joestar's guide using Audigy's drivers for the Live! in Win98SE but I just got an Audigy instead and called it a day. Graphics wise, had both Nvidia and ATI cards on the WinME PC with no problem at all.

Later switched the WinME builds' Live! card for a HDA Digital Mystique and again no problems. I'm sure people at the time had very valid reasons to complain, but nowadays with today's hindsight and drivers, WinME is as smooth and stable as can be in my experience, especially vs. Win98SE in today's context. Win98SE will always be "home" to me, but WinME just has a feel of sleekness and elegance through simply and gently refining the ambiance and visual qualities that Win98 or SE had, as it was already allured to here it really feels "modern" still, much more than Win98SE or even XP in my opinion. And what is installed and working remains so, never had a single BSOD, just my 2 cents...

Reply 16 of 36, by LSS10999

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-02-06, 23:06:
the3dfxdude wrote on 2023-02-06, 21:35:

The only reason not to run it, is if your computer is too old, or possibly too new? (I know people can figure out some amazing things)

The only reason not to run it is because the MS-DOS mode was more limited than the previous versions of Windows 9x, even with that hack that supposedly "restores" it.

A long time ago there were some hacks involving patching IO.SYS from WinME EBD to enable real-mode DOS. However, with that patch you're bereft of the entire stock F8 menu and the startup logo, so I stopped using them as well as WinME in its entirety on systems where real DOS was needed.

The recently discovered IO.SYS and COMMAND.COM inside WinME's DTA files (OOBE-related) are not necessarily hacks. These were actually official MS binaries but for some reasons access to real-mode DOS were retained for these variants.

I did experiment with real mode MS-DOS 8.0 a while ago. I haven't really felt anything too different compared to MS-DOS 7.1 (Win98/SE), though some did mention about certain limitations, like the inability to "print" (I never used it before, and don't really know how to do it). Also, there are now changes and limitations to the SYS command (as well as other related commands such as FORMAT /S) compared to previous DOS versions given the supposed removal of real-mode DOS in WinME.

The only major concern for real-mode MS-DOS 8.0 is that you cannot use your own XMS manager. The IO.SYS has its own HIMEM and is not easy to disable it cleanly, and you may run into problems regarding using EMS. A tool called IO8EMMOK can be used to at least make EMS usable with the built-in HIMEM. The built-in HIMEM, however, worked without major issues on my RUBY-9719VG2AR with 4GB of RAM installed. Both JEMM386 NOEMS and UMBPCI worked okay with this built-in HIMEM at least from what I've tested.

It seems IO8EMMOK requires Gate A20 option be set to Normal/KBC, but I don't know how it would be set on boards that do not provide this option. My board doesn't appear to have this option, but with IO8EMMOK, JEMM386 doesn't appear to immediately crash when used with RAM option. I haven't tested the functionality in detail, though.

Last edited by LSS10999 on 2023-02-07, 03:36. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 17 of 36, by Sphere478

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Idk why you are having issues. ME is my go to OS these days

Be sure you are using the final end of support fully updated iso image from microsoft.

I usually don’t install much drivers.

Maybe try different hardware? Might solve the problem. Not saying the hardware is bad, just that other hardware may not have bugs.

Also, try to use oldest drivers for your hardware. Latest drivers aren’t always best

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Reply 18 of 36, by Gmlb256

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LSS10999 wrote on 2023-02-07, 03:08:

The recently discovered IO.SYS and COMMAND.COM inside WinME's DTA files (OOBE-related) are not necessarily hacks. These were actually official MS binaries but for some reasons access to real-mode DOS were retained for these variants.

I did experiment with real mode MS-DOS 8.0 a while ago. I haven't really felt anything too different compared to MS-DOS 7.1 (Win98/SE), though some did mention about certain limitations, like the inability to "print" (I never used it before, and don't really know how to do it). Also, there are now changes and limitations to the SYS command (as well as other related commands such as FORMAT /S) compared to previous DOS versions given the supposed removal of real-mode DOS in WinME.

Does it allow to create menus in CONFIG.SYS? It is another limitation that I have noticed, which is a no go for me as I use them to deal with multiple scenarios (some programs require EMS, other refuses to run with EMM loaded, etc.). For most people, this isn't a problem though.

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Reply 19 of 36, by LSS10999

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-02-07, 03:39:

Does it allow to create menus in CONFIG.SYS? It is another limitation that I have noticed, which is a no go for me as I use them to deal with multiple scenarios (some programs require EMS, other refuses to run with EMM loaded, etc.). For most people, this isn't a problem though.

Yes, you can. I also use the menu for different configs like UMBPCI, JEMM386 with or without EMS, as well as other specialized use cases. They work fine with the IO.SYS/COMMAND.COM I mentioned.

I also read that it's recommended to disable REGENV32.EXE as well, preferrably by substituting it with a stub (the WIN.COM stub from WinXP will do), to prevent WinME from altering CONFIG/AUTOEXEC under certain circumstances.

Sphere478 wrote on 2023-02-07, 03:24:

Be sure you are using the final end of support fully updated iso image from microsoft.

Ummm... did Microsoft ever released such discs/images? From what I know these "updated" images were mostly unofficial (often "unlawful") assemblies... though they may be fine to use with your own licenses if you trust them...

AFAIK Microsoft only released some base images (MSDN/TechNet) and the legit ways would be to slipstream them manually (with guides available)... Are there any guides for slipstreaming Win9x updates reliably?

With so many Windows versions gone EOL I would be really pleased if Microsoft do officially release them in their final, end-of-support form...