Asininity wrote on 2023-03-04, 02:35:

I got my hands on a EPIA-800 for a mITX 98 machine. I'm waiting on a S3 Trio 64 2MB and a replacement for the noisy 40mm fan. If I'm lucky I'll be able to find an affordable small 486 case before too long to put it all in.

PXL_20230303_004604666.jpg

I don't think you're going to find a 486-era case that supports mITX or any subset of ATX. There may be some proprietary\OEM systems that had ATX-like features and came equipped with a 486\586, but they aren't likely to have the right layout for a modern board. Vogons Wiki, while not infallible by any means, actually makes the statement that no ATX 486 boards were ever made. So, no boards, no cases.

Now, you can probably find a really old microATX case if you look enough, but it isn't going to have a Turbo button, Turbo display, etc.

If you're a fabricator then you can probably just hack a rectangular hole out of the back of a case in exactly the right place and put new mounting stud locations in to convert a 486-era case to mITX... but that would be a nightmare and kind of a shame since the cases are become quite scarce as is.

Bought a Radeon 9700 Pro AIW for $42.

Not exactly PLEASED at that price, but the 9700 Pro for whatever reason seems to be an increasingly rare card, the last few that sold went for $80+.

On a side note, why is one of the most famous GPUs ever, that sold like hotcakes, so damned hard to find? I have a Dell 9700 Pro around here somewhere, but its missing multiple caps and SMD components (and strangely has a legit factory sticker labeling it as an X800 Pro) and I've never gotten around to repairing it.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 03:36:

Bought a Radeon 9700 Pro AIW for $42.

Not exactly PLEASED at that price, but the 9700 Pro for whatever reason seems to be an increasingly rare card, the last few that sold went for $80+.

On a side note, why is one of the most famous GPUs ever, that sold like hotcakes, so damned hard to find? I have a Dell 9700 Pro around here somewhere, but its missing multiple caps and SMD components (and strangely has a legit factory sticker labeling it as an X800 Pro) and I've never gotten around to repairing it.

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. 9800 series is a little better as ATI partially corrected the earlier 9700 poor shim design.

by shim im referring to the metal shim they added around the GPU die, the 9700 pro version would eventually warp and lift up which naturally caused the heat sink to lose contact with the die, this eventually would eventually kill the GPU. ATI corrected it partially for the 9800 PRO which did help but the 9800 pro has other issues which kill it first.

https://www.frostytech.com/articles/1288/

This article goes a little into what the issue is when it was first picked up by users, ATI never fixed it for the 9700 Pro.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 03:42:

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. […]
Show full quote

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 03:36:

Bought a Radeon 9700 Pro AIW for $42.

Not exactly PLEASED at that price, but the 9700 Pro for whatever reason seems to be an increasingly rare card, the last few that sold went for $80+.

On a side note, why is one of the most famous GPUs ever, that sold like hotcakes, so damned hard to find? I have a Dell 9700 Pro around here somewhere, but its missing multiple caps and SMD components (and strangely has a legit factory sticker labeling it as an X800 Pro) and I've never gotten around to repairing it.

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. 9800 series is a little better as ATI partially corrected the earlier 9700 poor shim design.

by shim im referring to the metal shim they added around the GPU die, the 9700 pro version would eventually warp and lift up which naturally caused the heat sink to lose contact with the die, this eventually would eventually kill the GPU. ATI corrected it partially for the 9800 PRO which did help but the 9800 pro has other issues which kill it first.

https://www.frostytech.com/articles/1288/

This article goes a little into what the issue is when it was first picked up by users, ATI never fixed it for the 9700 Pro.

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

Seems using a slightly overthick thermal pad instead of thermal paste would theoretically eliminate the issue yes?

Also pulled the trigger on a Radeon DDR 64MB for $31. Those R6 Radeons are also getting quite rare.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:20:

Right, how do I prevent that from happening? […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 03:42:

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. […]
Show full quote

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 03:36:

Bought a Radeon 9700 Pro AIW for $42.

Not exactly PLEASED at that price, but the 9700 Pro for whatever reason seems to be an increasingly rare card, the last few that sold went for $80+.

On a side note, why is one of the most famous GPUs ever, that sold like hotcakes, so damned hard to find? I have a Dell 9700 Pro around here somewhere, but its missing multiple caps and SMD components (and strangely has a legit factory sticker labeling it as an X800 Pro) and I've never gotten around to repairing it.

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. 9800 series is a little better as ATI partially corrected the earlier 9700 poor shim design.

by shim im referring to the metal shim they added around the GPU die, the 9700 pro version would eventually warp and lift up which naturally caused the heat sink to lose contact with the die, this eventually would eventually kill the GPU. ATI corrected it partially for the 9800 PRO which did help but the 9800 pro has other issues which kill it first.

https://www.frostytech.com/articles/1288/

This article goes a little into what the issue is when it was first picked up by users, ATI never fixed it for the 9700 Pro.

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

Seems using a thermal pad instead of thermal paste would theoretically eliminate the issue yes?

Also pulled the trigger on a Radeon DDR 64MB for $31. Those R6 Radeons are also getting quite rare.

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even removing it and replacing the entire cooler, pretty sure that using a thermal pad wont solve it as its the shim itself that warps and this wont be solved by a thermal pad.

You can try googling it to see what others have done but IIRC there is no 100% method aside from removing/modifying the shim.

It was a shitty design which ATI quickly modified but never fully fixed till later revisions.

I'm in the same boat as I have both a working 9700 Pro and a 9800XT, the 9700 Pro I'm hesitant to put into use for the reason above and the 9800XT I'm worried itll simply be dead next time I try using it.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:24:

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:20:

Right, how do I prevent that from happening? […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 03:42:

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. […]
Show full quote

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. 9800 series is a little better as ATI partially corrected the earlier 9700 poor shim design.

by shim im referring to the metal shim they added around the GPU die, the 9700 pro version would eventually warp and lift up which naturally caused the heat sink to lose contact with the die, this eventually would eventually kill the GPU. ATI corrected it partially for the 9800 PRO which did help but the 9800 pro has other issues which kill it first.

https://www.frostytech.com/articles/1288/

This article goes a little into what the issue is when it was first picked up by users, ATI never fixed it for the 9700 Pro.

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

Seems using a thermal pad instead of thermal paste would theoretically eliminate the issue yes?

Also pulled the trigger on a Radeon DDR 64MB for $31. Those R6 Radeons are also getting quite rare.

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even removing it and replacing the entire cooler, pretty sure that using a thermal pad wont solve it as its the shim itself that warps and this wont be solved by a thermal pad.

You can try googling it to see what others have done but IIRC there is no 100% method aside from removing/modifying the shim.

If the shim is warping theoretical a thermal pad that is of greater thickness would stay in contact with the cooler even as it is slowly forced upwards by the shim.

Basically this is what I was thinking. The possible problem would be too much thickness and it could be too much force on the GPU die from the compressed pad.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:32:

If the shim is warping theoretical a thermal pad that is of greater thickness would stay in contact with the cooler even as it i […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:24:

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:20:

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

Seems using a thermal pad instead of thermal paste would theoretically eliminate the issue yes?

Also pulled the trigger on a Radeon DDR 64MB for $31. Those R6 Radeons are also getting quite rare.

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even removing it and replacing the entire cooler, pretty sure that using a thermal pad wont solve it as its the shim itself that warps and this wont be solved by a thermal pad.

You can try googling it to see what others have done but IIRC there is no 100% method aside from removing/modifying the shim.

If the shim is warping theoretical a thermal pad that is of greater thickness would stay in contact with the cooler even as it is slowly forced upwards by the shim.

Basically this is what I was thinking. The possible problem would be too much thickness and it could be too much force on the GPU die from the compressed pad.

Shim.PNG

A combination of grinding down the shim a little and a thermal pad may work pretty well, keeping it level and at the right contact pressure with the Die might become an issue, replacing the cooler with a more suitable one (Such as a Zalmann type) could help with keeping the right pressure.

Personally I hate the thought of having to physically modify the shim, would take a steady pair of hands to do it safely.

My motivating factor here for modification is, how often am I going to use these cards and will I be using them enough for the heating issues to start causing issues, back in the day people used to overclock and stress the hell out of these cards. I cant see that being something anyone would be doing now especially people who know how fragile these cards are getting. So your fix might be all that's needed if they are only getting occasional use.

Seemed to me like they were selling the 9700 Pro for like 9 months and the 9800 variants for 3 years. Rarely see 9500s either. Commonest of that lot is the 9550

Thermal pads really suck at thermal transfer. They are ok-ish for things that don't get that hot but for GPU cores I would not dream of it unless I didn't care if the FPU does or not.

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:47:

Seemed to me like they were selling the 9700 Pro for like 9 months and the 9800 variants for 3 years. Rarely see 9500s either. Commonest of that lot is the 9550

Yeah .. they dropped the 9700 Pro pretty fast when the shim issues hit, and then they had six million variants of the 9800 which IIRC was rebadged with a PLX PCIe bridge for the early X300/X700 series.

Bought this lot of 3x "K6-2 300" CPUs.

Had been wanting to get a K6-300 for a while.. and two different versions popped up in one listing.

Date codes are weeks 12, 37 and 40 of 1998, right?

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:38:

A combination of grinding down the shim a little and a thermal pad may work pretty well, keeping it level and at the right conta […]
Show full quote

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:32:

If the shim is warping theoretical a thermal pad that is of greater thickness would stay in contact with the cooler even as it i […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:24:

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even removing it and replacing the entire cooler, pretty sure that using a thermal pad wont solve it as its the shim itself that warps and this wont be solved by a thermal pad.

You can try googling it to see what others have done but IIRC there is no 100% method aside from removing/modifying the shim.

If the shim is warping theoretical a thermal pad that is of greater thickness would stay in contact with the cooler even as it is slowly forced upwards by the shim.

Basically this is what I was thinking. The possible problem would be too much thickness and it could be too much force on the GPU die from the compressed pad.

Shim.PNG

A combination of grinding down the shim a little and a thermal pad may work pretty well, keeping it level and at the right contact pressure with the Die might become an issue, replacing the cooler with a more suitable one (Such as a Zalmann type) could help with keeping the right pressure.

Personally I hate the thought of having to physically modify the shim, would take a steady pair of hands to do it safely.

My motivating factor here for modification is, how often am I going to use these cards and will I be using them enough for the heating issues to start causing issues, back in the day people used to overclock and stress the hell out of these cards. I cant see that being something anyone would be doing now especially people who know how fragile these cards are getting. So your fix might be all that's needed if they are only getting occasional use.

I don't plan to use it on a regular basis, thats for sure as fuck. So much of my neat hardware is so exceedingly rare and expensive that I don't want to use it regularly because heating and cooling cycles mean death. It kinda sucks honestly.

I'll probably see what RivaTuner says the temps are like underload and go from there.

EDIT: Also in response to the other convo, sure as shit X700 is 9800 Pro masquerading as a X-hundreds series card.

cyclone3d wrote on 2023-03-04, 05:56:

Date codes are weeks 12, 37 and 40 of 1998, right?

Yes, that's right. Not super rare, but I don't see them very often any more.

debs3759 wrote on 2023-03-04, 06:20:

cyclone3d wrote on 2023-03-04, 05:56:

Date codes are weeks 12, 37 and 40 of 1998, right?

Yes, that's right. Not super rare, but I don't see them very often any more.

I have a feeling a lot of them that haven't made it to collections are heading to the "Other" collectors for the minuscule amount of gold they have in them.

Im doing my bit, I trawl the gold recycler listing for old CPUs and grab a few of the rare ones I see that are still in a savable condition and that are not listed for stupid amounts.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:24:

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even remov […]
Show full quote

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:20:

Right, how do I prevent that from happening? […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 03:42:

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. […]
Show full quote

9700 Pros are notorious for dying due to the terrible shim design ATI used, its why they are rare and working ones even more so. 9800 series is a little better as ATI partially corrected the earlier 9700 poor shim design.

by shim im referring to the metal shim they added around the GPU die, the 9700 pro version would eventually warp and lift up which naturally caused the heat sink to lose contact with the die, this eventually would eventually kill the GPU. ATI corrected it partially for the 9800 PRO which did help but the 9800 pro has other issues which kill it first.

https://www.frostytech.com/articles/1288/

This article goes a little into what the issue is when it was first picked up by users, ATI never fixed it for the 9700 Pro.

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

Seems using a thermal pad instead of thermal paste would theoretically eliminate the issue yes?

Also pulled the trigger on a Radeon DDR 64MB for $31. Those R6 Radeons are also getting quite rare.

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even removing it and replacing the entire cooler, pretty sure that using a thermal pad wont solve it as its the shim itself that warps and this wont be solved by a thermal pad.

You can try googling it to see what others have done but IIRC there is no 100% method aside from removing/modifying the shim.

It was a shitty design which ATI quickly modified but never fully fixed till later revisions.

I'm in the same boat as I have both a working 9700 Pro and a 9800XT, the 9700 Pro I'm hesitant to put into use for the reason above and the 9800XT I'm worried itll simply be dead next time I try using it.

You're making me worry about my 9800XT all of a sudden. 😀 I assumed the issues didn't extend to that one because it's got the big heatsink/fan clamped down on everything. I guess it wasn't a good enough solution?

danieljm wrote on 2023-03-04, 07:41:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:24:

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even remov […]
Show full quote

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:20:

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

Seems using a thermal pad instead of thermal paste would theoretically eliminate the issue yes?

Also pulled the trigger on a Radeon DDR 64MB for $31. Those R6 Radeons are also getting quite rare.

Well there are a few methods ... some of which are destructive but solve the issue, such as grinding down the shim or even removing it and replacing the entire cooler, pretty sure that using a thermal pad wont solve it as its the shim itself that warps and this wont be solved by a thermal pad.

You can try googling it to see what others have done but IIRC there is no 100% method aside from removing/modifying the shim.

It was a shitty design which ATI quickly modified but never fully fixed till later revisions.

I'm in the same boat as I have both a working 9700 Pro and a 9800XT, the 9700 Pro I'm hesitant to put into use for the reason above and the 9800XT I'm worried itll simply be dead next time I try using it.

You're making me worry about my 9800XT all of a sudden. 😀 I assumed the issues didn't extend to that one because it's got the big heatsink/fan clamped down on everything. I guess it wasn't a good enough solution?

ATI did partially fix the shim problem enough that the later 9800 series cards were mostly unaffected by it (Assuming the fab didnt cheap out on the heatsink clamp). .the bigger cooler and heat sink clamp was part of the fix along with changes to the metal shim, but the 9800 Pro / XT can be affected by bad caps, which you wont know till you power it up. I have had a number of DOA 9800Pro/XT cards from ebay and every time it was the VRM caps that had failed, if your card is working them its worth just looking over the caps occasionally just to check their health.

Im just glad I finally got a fully working 9800XT but still knowing that at any time the caps can go is rather worrying, I might just recap it next time I pull it out of storage.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:20:

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

I added added a fine metal piece between the die and the cooler.

Cut with an angle grinder at the correct size (roughly). From a metal sheet less than 1mm in thickness.

Then polished on increasingly fine sandpaper until i see no defects.

A bit of thermal paste on both sides. Add the original cooler on top and you're good to go.

I did the same to two of my 7800 GTX 256 because after changing the pads on memory chips, the cooler had bad contact with the die.

The 9700 pro dont' have a thermal probe (at least mine shows none on gpu-z) but the 7800GTX did. And i lost between 15 an 20C° in full load. So yes, the contact with the die was not great and this definitely make a difference.

acl wrote on 2023-03-04, 09:18:

I added added a fine metal piece between the die and the cooler. […]
Show full quote

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:20:

Right, how do I prevent that from happening?

I added added a fine metal piece between the die and the cooler.

Cut with an angle grinder at the correct size (roughly). From a metal sheet less than 1mm in thickness.

Then polished on increasingly fine sandpaper until i see no defects.

A bit of thermal paste on both sides. Add the original cooler on top and you're good to go.

I did the same to two of my 7800 GTX 256 because after changing the pads on memory chips, the cooler had bad contact with the die.

The 9700 pro dont' have a thermal probe (at least mine shows none on gpu-z) but the 7800GTX did. And i lost between 15 an 20C° in full load. So yes, the contact with the die was not great and this definitely make a difference.

This sounds like a great idea, I also wonder if a 9800XT cooler could be modded to fit the 9700Pro, I suspect ATI may have changed too much to do that but even a way to clamp the cooler heat sink down a little firmer would help a lot.

I would be more concerned about removing original yellow paste which can pull the gpu die with it. 9800 Pro coolers were updated to make contact with the die better. There's a ~0.2 - 0.5mm thick square shim machined over the die. Early 9700pros don't have this.

A thin metal plate and thermal paste between is a good fix. Just repasting the card with thick, quality paste is good enough too since original yellow cement is more of an insulator than a paste 😁

Got this old external scsi bay, the hdd works fine, full of old sharewares, games, magazines cover disks and so on.

The power supply on the other hand, a bit suspicious, dare i trigger the end of the world with it? 😒