how small you need the motherboard? the duron stuff are cheap now , they pile up everywhere. win98 supports ok up to LGA775 Pentium 4 single core's. (they won't use the second core of c2d so... ether amd or intel some bios'es have possibility to disable multicore).

Both of my retro machines use an M-ATX board.

Since you mentioned Win98 a bunch - for my Win98/XP rig, I use an Asus P4P800-VM (S478) with a P4 3.0c (or 2.0a depending what config I feel like). It's got a 4x/8x slot in it and paired with either a GF4 Ti4200 or an Ati x850 Pro depending on config. For Win98SE compatibility, it runs like a charm - zero issues due to the 865PE chipset. Onboard LAN is an intel pro100 so decent enough, sound is hot garbage though so I'd be prepared to shell out for a sound card of some sort. Caps are known to leak (as with many boards of this era due to the 'plague') but easy to replace if you have the knowledge. One thing I do like about this board, it has 2 SATA 1 ports and is able to run it in 'IDE compatibility mode' which works decently well in 98, so you can use (SOME) modern drives without needing a cheap converter. Be aware that many of the newest drives are dropping support for SATA 1.

For a 98SE highly compatible rig, I would highly recommend this board with:
- GPU wise, a GF4 Ti card or 9800 Pro (both can be found with a reasonable price and has tons of performance). With a higher clocked S478 CPU and a 2002-2003 era GPU like that, you'll be able to run just about everything that 98SE has to offer and even quite a bit beyond. GF4 will give you better support for pre DX5/DX5 titles while 9700/9800 Pro will give you more performance, especially on the higher end.
- CPUs are dirt cheap everywhere so take your pick with how fast you want to go. I initially had a 2.0A which I find more compatible and more 'in tune' with 98, but later on got a 3.0c which works out far better even with the HT on (Win98 doesnt make use of it but I keep it on anyways for XP).
- RAM is also dirt cheap. 512mb max for 98se but you can get more if you use rloew's PATCHMEM. I use 2GB in my system as I'm dual booting with XP. To make it work with 98, install 98se as normal, when it crashes after first boot - start back into a boot disk with PATCHMEM on it. Copy it to the C drive root, run it, then reboot and it will continue on as normal.
- For sound, I went with an Audigy 2 ZS installing the VXD drivers which works pretty well. There are a lot of decent PCI options though with SB Live (non OEM) or an A3D card.
- For storage, take your pick. A 120GB SSD will work just fine (providing it has SATA1 support) and runs without patching needed. I just opted for a newer fast HD (320GB) and partitioned off 80gb for 98 and the rest for XP. It's fast enough that damn near everything is instantaneous anyways and no worries about TRIM. Any drive past 2004-2005 will be super fast for 98 anyways.
- For a power supply, I would pick a modern one with at least 130 watts on the combined 5v + 3.3v rails at minimum. Even with the P4 CPU header, many things like your video card and drives still heavily use those rails.

If you decide on an Athlon XP system instead, you should be aware of it's extremely high 5v + 3.3v requirements which makes sourcing a good working power supply very difficult. Athlon and Pentium 3 are in a similar boat although not as bad. For this reason, I usually recommend Pentium 4 for building a 'new' 98SE rig since you can use modern supplies with them.

As a note - for the DOS/Win95 rig, I use an Asus P5-99VM (SS7). It doesn't have AGP but it's 'only' paired with a 200MMX. Has a S3 Trio64V2/DX and a Voodoo 1. For Win98SE compatibility, I did try this once with a K6-2+ 550 but due to not having an AGP slot - gaming performance was pretty limited. However, for DOS it doesn't matter any and early Win95 (pre DX5 stuff) it runs pretty great. You get all the modern conveniences like ATX layout/power support, no dallas/varta battery bullshit, all while being able to drop down to early Pentium performance and even beyond with utilities like SETMUL. Does come with a SIS530 video integrated (connected via AGP) which is ok for DOS compatibility and a Creative AudioPCI for onboard sound (some boards omit this). Both can be completely disabled via jumper so it doesn't take any resources.

Hope this helps!

Very useful, thanks!

That board looks good and thanks for reminding me about that website, I'll start digging through it. Looks like it would be useful to find boards with universal AGP even if I can't silence that voice in my head that tells me I need to have a Voodoo card.

Oh yeah, and actually I realized I haven't even checked, but I guess there are glide wrappers that work in Windows 98? If yes, did you try any with the GF4? How's the performance?

There are plenty mATX boards with a agp slot (to many) , I think it would be easier to post what models are in your area/reach/budget and then we can help you decide.

sfg wrote on 2023-03-15, 10:21:

Anyway, first thing is that I'd like a microATX motherboard with AGP. If it has an AGP slot that supports something like a Voodoo 3 card, that would be a bonus, but I'm fine with glide wrappers as well. In terms of performance, of course the faster the better, but I want to use Windows 98 so prefer compatibility with Win9x games over speed, so I'd need a recommendation for a GPU (and sound card, I guess) that's suitable for that. Also need some suggestions for suitable PSUs.

I realize that microATX limits the choices so don't hesitate to recommend ATX boards as well.

I'd say your best bet would be a Socket 370 MB (that comes with either Tualatin or at least Coppermine P3) with an universal AGP slot (for Voodoo3). However, many early mATX boards with S370 were built for low-end office computers with intergrated graphics (after all S370 was designed for Celeron first before retro-adapted by P3) and might not have an independent AGP slot at all. Like you said, there were far more options in contemporary ATX boards than mATX boards.

bogdanpaulb wrote on 2023-03-15, 23:05:

There are plenty mATX boards with a agp slot (to many) , I think it would be easier to post what models are in your area/reach/budget and then we can help you decide.

There's a catch: Many mATX boards with AGP (like my Gigabyte GA-K8VM800M and Asus K8V-MX) were newer boards with 8X slots (1.5V keyed) and could only accept Voodoo4 4500 (the very last Voodoo card highly sought after by retro communities) or early Voodoo with PCI interface. Voodoo5 5500 and all Voodoo3 need either an early 3.3V AGP 2X or an universal slot.

I do agree that it would be easier if sfg is willing to add more info on budget and availability; after all if sfg is willing to spend US$200 or more then no other issue is too bit to solve. 🤑

sfg wrote on 2023-03-15, 22:36:

Very useful, thanks!

That board looks good and thanks for reminding me about that website, I'll start digging through it. Looks like it would be useful to find boards with universal AGP even if I can't silence that voice in my head that tells me I need to have a Voodoo card.

Oh yeah, and actually I realized I haven't even checked, but I guess there are glide wrappers that work in Windows 98? If yes, did you try any with the GF4? How's the performance?

Lots of wrappers, they're mostly game/hardware specific though. I don't really use glide wrappers much, all my games either support D3D decently well or the older ones I use with a V1 in another rig. I think most use either zeckensacks or dgvoodoo. The GF4 Tis if I remember right were very compatible with them in general.

There's a number of them in a repository here.

Absolutely nothing wrong with a voodoo though, they're just rather pricey these days and you do have to worry about AGP keying/voltage as posted above.

You mean $200 in total or just for the motherboard?

I don't think I have a certain budget in mind, just looking at the options.
Got to say that the Asus P4P800-VM recommended by gen_angry above seems a bit expensive and not easy to find, at least in Europe. GeForce 4 Ti also looks quite expensive and I even see broken ones at kind of ridiculous prices. But besides me being surprised by the prices, it's fine, it's a mid-life crisis "project", I don't mind throwing some money at it.

Still digging through theretroweb.com at the moment, and yeah, looks like microATX boards with universal AGP are almost impossible to find to buy. Guess I'll either give that up or go for ATX. Just to be sure, though, if it says on theretroweb.com that it has an universal AGP slot then I can take it that it will support a Voodoo 3?

Jetway P4MDPT (I have one). It's (still) cheap, reliable, compatible, and pretty fast for Windows 98SE/ME (tops out at 3.06/533MHz Pentium 4). It works great with whatever Voodoo card I throw at it. Via chipset, Universal AGP, USB 2.0, and 3 PCI slots. It also has onboard audio and video, not that I use either regularly, but the D-sub port has been handy for troubleshooting.

I see a few floating around the UK and the rest of Europe.

I've attached the specs for your perusal.

Would something like this PSU be suitable?
Has 150W on the 5 and 3.3 rails. Looks like a lot of the Corsair PSUs do. Anything else should I look for? Max load maybe?

Someone might correct me, but I think a lot of Pentium 4 motherboards with SIS chipsets have universal AGP. This one in particular is pretty common.

The trick is that people often installed these motherboards in full ATX cases, so you might want to check for old office computers in your area.

Of course S370 mATX motherboards with universal AGP are even more common and you might even be able to find one with an ISA slot in case DOS compatibility ever interests you.

The ASRock 775i65G is a really nice mATX board with AGP. It might also be easier/cheaper to find than a more sought after Asus.

Theres also an HP OEM version of that ASUS board, I have one I pulled out of an HP media center desktop. Wasn't aware it was rare until reading this.

I'll see if I can find the HP OEM model number, if its like most of HPs ASUS collaborations you can simply flash the BIOs over to retail. I'd expect the OEM version to be cheaper since OEM boards are usually seen as worthless.

sfg wrote on 2023-03-16, 00:08:

GeForce 4 Ti also looks quite expensive and I even see broken ones at kind of ridiculous prices.

Got mine for US$5 at an e-waste recycler. 😉 It really depends on where you live and how important Glide is to you.

mrzmaster wrote on 2023-03-16, 20:44:

The ASRock 775i65G is a really nice mATX board with AGP. It might also be easier/cheaper to find than a more sought after Asus.

Well, if universal AGP is not needed than there are tons of MB to choose from. 775i65G is one of the best board for a hybrid system spanning Win9x, WinXP, and even a bit of Win7+.

Right, so now I'm looking at going for a Pentium III instead. I was thinking it would be better for DOS compatibility and after all, most of the Windows games I want to play are probably not newer than the PIII times. I found this board which looks interesting: ASUS P2B-S
Would 133 FSB CPUs work on this board? 100 FSB ones seem harder to find.

And I thought I'd like to maybe get an MT-32 as well and I found this: http://www.pcmidi.eu/pcmidi.html
However, the help section for that card mentions issues with IRQ2 on Pentium 1 and newer boards and even some 486 boards, if the games don't allow IRQ selection.
Is there any chance I'd get a free IRQ2 on the ASUS P2B-S or a similar board or is it just not possible?
Are there a lot of games that don't allow manual IRQ selection? Can it be forced somehow if they don't allow it?
Any other suggestions to get an MT-32 going on properly with motherboards of that period?

Thank you!

sfg wrote on 2023-03-28, 00:02:

Right, so now I'm looking at going for a Pentium III instead. I was thinking it would be better for DOS compatibility and after […]
Show full quote

Right, so now I'm looking at going for a Pentium III instead. I was thinking it would be better for DOS compatibility and after all, most of the Windows games I want to play are probably not newer than the PIII times. I found this board which looks interesting: ASUS P2B-S
Would 133 FSB CPUs work on this board? 100 FSB ones seem harder to find.

And I thought I'd like to maybe get an MT-32 as well and I found this: http://www.pcmidi.eu/pcmidi.html
However, the help section for that card mentions issues with IRQ2 on Pentium 1 and newer boards and even some 486 boards, if the games don't allow IRQ selection.
Is there any chance I'd get a free IRQ2 on the ASUS P2B-S or a similar board or is it just not possible?
Are there a lot of games that don't allow manual IRQ selection? Can it be forced somehow if they don't allow it?
Any other suggestions to get an MT-32 going on properly with motherboards of that period?

Thank you!

Probably not but I can't tell you 100% for sure. Typically 100FSB boards don't like to go past that but chips should be able to run at 100FSB mode anyways (up to a point, so no Tualatins). For that board - you can find the QVL, a set of very old drivers, and manuals from Asus here.

IRQ selection on later boards can usually be freed up via the BIOS. It's typically that menu where it says 'PnP OS Yes/No' and you can reserve IRQ options for legacy ISA cards (so PnP doesn't attempt to use them). For earlier systems, many of them (I cant say all but many) worked by slot order - the earlier cards in the stack got the first pick of resource ranges. Looking at the images of the card, there seems to be a resource selection jumper on the bottom left corner and the manual says that you can change it.

Anyways - pure 'DOS compatibility' is mostly VESA 1.2/2.0 support for later stuff (good chart on compatibility with various cards)and an ISA sound card due to how sound 'drivers' back then worked. PCI sound cards ran into many issues ranging from requiring a decent chunk of memory (or at least running with Windows in the background) to outright not working at all. If you aren't using a Creative card, at least basic Sound Blaster support card is a must. Past Pentium MMX 200mhz or so, you also start to run into some 'Runtime error 1' issues for many games/apps but there are patches available with various degrees of success. If you aren't trying to run speed-sensitive games (which with a P3 or even a P2, all of them will be too fast), you can really run DOS games on much faster machines. I've ran DOS 6.22 on my old 6700K for shits and it worked just fine albeit without sound and having to use a S3 Trio in the sole PCI slot for VESA support. Really, if you want a DOS rig that 'works with nearly everything' like Phil's (and my) 200MMX build where you can drop the speed way down by a utility - you're better off building one for DOS itself. Otherwise, if you try to do 'one for both' you end up kneecapping yourself with later 98 games as they start to require a lot more horsepower or run into compatibility issues with the speed and sound.

Starting to see why we build multiple rigs, eh?

Maybe a good idea is to list out all the games that you're interested in?

If you think a 478 board or a GF4TI is hard to find, good luck finding a mATX P3 board with AGP and ISA (for the midi card). In terms of a 'ALL in one build' this shoud be one of the good ones: you can just get a mATX Amd 754 board with a Via chipset, a 3000+/3100+ Sempron (it can be down clocked to 1000mhz and disable cache bringing it to a ~486 level), video GF4Ti/FX5XXX ultra/FX5XXX 128 bit/GF4MX and for sound the onboard audio should work with SBEMU or you can get a ESS Solo 1 that will work with the Via chipset of the board in TDMA mode (mind the pci slots, you have to find 'the right one' because of resource sharing). Depending of the route you choose on going for video and sound this should be very cheap, allow to experiment and really decide if you need something else.

I gave up on the mATX thing. I want more slots to stick things in.
Thanks for the "all in one build" suggestion. I'll look into it. But as I said, I'm not necessarily looking to get the cheapest thing possible. Consider that I'm thinking of things like Voodoos and MT-32s. 😀 Even started looking into getting a Vortex 2 card.

But getting back to a P4 build, anyone see anything bad about this board? I can easily find on ebay and very cheap.
Doesn't have a 3.3v AGP slot, but I figured that maybe if I want to play around with Voodoo I could either get a Voodoo 2 or leave that for some other build later.

sfg wrote on 2023-03-30, 00:53:

I gave up on the mATX thing. I want more slots to stick things in. Thanks for the "all in one build" suggestion. I'll look into […]
Show full quote

I gave up on the mATX thing. I want more slots to stick things in.
Thanks for the "all in one build" suggestion. I'll look into it. But as I said, I'm not necessarily looking to get the cheapest thing possible. Consider that I'm thinking of things like Voodoos and MT-32s. 😀 Even started looking into getting a Vortex 2 card.

But getting back to a P4 build, anyone see anything bad about this board? I can easily find on ebay and very cheap.
Doesn't have a 3.3v AGP slot, but I figured that maybe if I want to play around with Voodoo I could either get a Voodoo 2 or leave that for some other build later.

I acquired a very similar Gigabyte board and it had a number of failing capacitors that had to be replaced, so be on the lookout for that.

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