HanSolo wrote on 2023-10-03, 18:54:

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-10-03, 14:11:

286 was EGA territory, nothing requiring VGA and more than 1MB would be playable with one exception being Windows.

I think I played many games on my 286 back then that supported VGA, so for me that was always the beginning of the VGA-era. But the 286 covered a pretty long time span

+1

According to my books, VGA compatible cards hit the market in February 1988.

Considering the age of the 80286 (1982) and AT (1984),
they saw a whole range of standards come and go.

Though after 1987, a new star was born - VGA.
It was sought after equally among all users, including XT users.
That's why 8-Bit ISA VGAs were produced in notable numbers, I assume.

Though video game players mainly had an interest in mode 13h or MCGA, respectively, I suppose.

What's also notable, VGA was designed as an integrated circuit that could ease production of graphics cards.
The industry adopted VGA and turned it into an open standard, like it happened with Hercules compatibles. It was "cheap" in other words.

EGA, by comparison, was never really meant to be mainstream. It was highly complex and rather professional. Required a special monitor, when it was introduced.
EGA was like a prototype to VGA, maybe.

If we're looking at it from a technical point of view, then EGA and VGA share a lot of similarities.
CGA and Hercules are quite different to them, by contrast (EGA has very basic/artificial CGA support).
However, CGA and MCGA (mode 13h) are similar to each other again (esp. memory; edit: it's directly accessible, for example, I mean).

This is very interesting. Because mode 13h differs a lot from the other VGA modes.
It's as if MCGA was something alien that was integrated into VGA. Like an earlier standard, like CGA.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-10-03, 18:54:

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-10-03, 14:11:

286 was EGA territory, nothing requiring VGA and more than 1MB would be playable with one exception being Windows.

I think I played many games on my 286 back then that supported VGA, so for me that was always the beginning of the VGA-era. But the 286 covered a pretty long time span

requiring VGA means game written strictly for VGA, no EGA/CGA modes available & more than 1MB means game wont run with just 1MB
How does something like Sam & Max: Hit the Road run on 286?

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-10-03, 20:29:

HanSolo wrote on 2023-10-03, 18:54:

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-10-03, 14:11:

286 was EGA territory, nothing requiring VGA and more than 1MB would be playable with one exception being Windows.

I think I played many games on my 286 back then that supported VGA, so for me that was always the beginning of the VGA-era. But the 286 covered a pretty long time span

requiring VGA means game written strictly for VGA, no EGA/CGA modes available & more than 1MB means game wont run with just 1MB
How does something like Sam & Max: Hit the Road run on 286?

How does Rise of the Dragon or Heart of China run on EGA?
As I said, 286 covers a long time span. So 286 is not 'EGA territorty' but EGA was part of 286 territory. For the OP's question, what graphics card makes sense to install in a 286, it's irrelevant if there are games that require VGA. There are many 286-games that are best played on VGA and you have EGA compatibility, so that's the best choise for a universal 286 system.

My first PC was a 286-16 with VGA. I can assure you that there are many, many games out there that are perfectly playable on such a combination. And no, I am not talking about older EGA titles.

Our first computer was a 12MHz 286 that we upgraded to a VGA graphics card. I remember playing games like KQ5 and SQ4 on it in VGA graphics.

There are also 286 processors that ran up to 25MHz, overlapping 386 computers in terms of performance. So a 286 class system is viable for VGA gaming in that late 80s and early 90s era.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-10-03, 21:09:

How does Rise of the Dragon or Heart of China run on EGA?

Both have minimal requirements of 8088 with 640KB of ram. We are in a thread named "Is there any reason to install more than 1 MB RAM on a 286 PC?"
Are there any non Windows VGA games requiring more than 1MB that will run acceptably on 286? I mentioned Sam & Max: Hit the Road because that is one of those rare games with VGA/>1MB and 286 requirements.

The OP also asked about the graphics card. You said "286 was EGA territory" which to me sounded like you voted for EGA instead of VGA. I was pointing out that a 286 has to be paired with a VGA card. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant with that?

Novell NetWare 2.2 would benefit from 4 meg ram, in case you like running old server softwares.

Zerthimon wrote on 2023-10-04, 19:18:

Novell NetWare 2.2 would benefit from 4 meg ram, in case you like running old server softwares.

Interesting! Thx

Just the 1mb question? Sure:

A disk cache
A ramdrive
To load an alternative shell into xms (e.g. something like 4dos)

I can't recall game requirements off the top of my head, but there are bound to be some. Wing Commander is one that comes to mind. How about Wolfenstein 3d? I know it detects extra memory (both xms and Ems) at start... but what it does with it I do not know.

My first PC was an Epson EL2 (286 computer) with custom 2MB memory module, VGA display, and a 20MB hard drive. It came with Windows 3.1 .

I was able to get another SIMM (memory) module to get 4MB, and also upgraded to a 40MB hard drive. I'm pretty sure that Windows could see the extra RAM, although being so long ago I could be wrong.

You could use HIMEM.SYS to load DOS high. This was because of a quirk in the design of the 286 which let the first 60k of extended memory be available to 16-bit programs. By doing so you freed up some memory for hungry DOS games. This means there is a very good reason to have more than 1MB in your 286 computer.

That 286 is long gone but I still have the special SIMMs. Unfortunately the hard drive can't be detected by the bios in newer computers.

megatron-uk wrote on 2023-10-04, 22:20:

Just the 1mb question? Sure: […]
Show full quote

Just the 1mb question? Sure:

A disk cache
A ramdrive
To load an alternative shell into xms (e.g. something like 4dos)

I can't recall game requirements off the top of my head, but there are bound to be some. Wing Commander is one that comes to mind. How about Wolfenstein 3d? I know it detects extra memory (both xms and Ems) at start... but what it does with it I do not know.

Yes indeed that was my doubt. So, those programs (ramdrive, smartdrv, etc.) do can 'see' above 1 MB even on 16 Bit machines like 286s! Thanks!!

Robbbert wrote on 2023-10-05, 02:15:

My first PC was an Epson EL2 (286 computer) with custom 2MB memory module, VGA display, and a 20MB hard drive. It came with Wind […]
Show full quote

My first PC was an Epson EL2 (286 computer) with custom 2MB memory module, VGA display, and a 20MB hard drive. It came with Windows 3.1 .

I was able to get another SIMM (memory) module to get 4MB, and also upgraded to a 40MB hard drive. I'm pretty sure that Windows could see the extra RAM, although being so long ago I could be wrong.

You could use HIMEM.SYS to load DOS high. This was because of a quirk in the design of the 286 which let the first 60k of extended memory be available to 16-bit programs. By doing so you freed up some memory for hungry DOS games. This means there is a very good reason to have more than 1MB in your 286 computer.

That 286 is long gone but I still have the special SIMMs. Unfortunately the hard drive can't be detected by the bios in newer computers.

Wow! Quite some nice upgrades for those times and systems! Your 286 rocked!!

xcopy on later DOS uses EMS or XMS too I think for speedup

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-10-05, 15:33:

xcopy on later DOS uses EMS or XMS too I think for speedup

Oh wow!
I didn't know that. Now the question is: But can it do that even on 16 bit CPUs like 286s ?

Robbbert wrote on 2023-10-05, 02:15:

You could use HIMEM.SYS to load DOS high. This was because of a quirk in the design of the 286 which let the first 60k of extended memory be available to 16-bit programs. By doing so you freed up some memory for hungry DOS games. This means there is a very good reason to have more than 1MB in your 286 computer.

Indeed (the first 64kiB-16B to be precise) but when 1MiB was the norm it would have been insane to waste 384k - so many (most?) 286 boards could relocate that (640k-1024k) area right above the 1MiB limit and this dos=high "trick" worked with 1M 286s just fine, still leaving 320k XMS at your disposal. Which proved enough to cache a .d64 image and speed up copying to a 1541 drive quite a bit. No, the 1541 was still slow but at least it didn't have to constantly stop-start while writing the image...

Yet I DO have 286 boards with 4M and the like, for shits and giggles and some can simulate EMS too.

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-10-03, 21:58:

HanSolo wrote on 2023-10-03, 21:09:

How does Rise of the Dragon or Heart of China run on EGA?

Both have minimal requirements of 8088 with 640KB of ram. We are in a thread named "Is there any reason to install more than 1 MB RAM on a 286 PC?"
Are there any non Windows VGA games requiring more than 1MB that will run acceptably on 286? I mentioned Sam & Max: Hit the Road because that is one of those rare games with VGA/>1MB and 286 requirements.

I think that at least Rise of the Dragon was sold as 256c MCGA version and a more rare EGA version.
The EGA version seems to run on Hercules/CGA and VGA/MCGA monochrome (mode 11h).

However, the EGA version is really ugly and very slow. On my XT w/ 4,77 MHz V20, it took about a minute until the splash screen was visible.

Edit: "Ugly" in the other video modes (not EGA), I mean. It's barely being recognizable there.

The menus in-game reacted wit one second delay, sometimes not registering keyboard presses.
Often, the keyboard would "go wild" and select random things.

Personally, back in the day, I perhaps would have had rather recommended XT users to play the Amiga version here, on a cheap A500.

Or get an used 80286 PC with 10 Mhz onwards. And any VGA card.

That's something that was easily possible, because 286 PCs were being sorted
out in the early 90s, in parts due to the increasing importance of 32-Bit architecture.

That's when they got a second life as entry-class PCs, being fine for running MS-DOS and MS Windows, still.

And that's also why memory expansion on a 286 is more important than on a 386/486, maybe.

On MS-Windows 3.x in 386 Enhanced-Mode, you can substitute real memory by virtual memory - if the CPU is an 80386 or higher.
It's slow, but it works as long as the hard-disk capacity allows for it.

On an 80286, MS-Windows 3.x in Standard-Mode does not support virtual memory, programs won't run or stop to run if physical memory is being exhausted.

So good luck writing a report about a school trip for school with lots of pictures in it.
I did that in the 90s, with analogue photos I scanned using a Mustek handy scanner.

Or let's think about writing a longer letter in MS-Works 2.
1 MB won't do it. 2MB may. 3 MB and up allow for a normal workflow.

And if someone thinks that's "overkill", please have a look at the Atari STs from the 1980s. 🙂
The Atari Mega's were sold in 1987 in 2 and 4 MB configuration, years before Windows 3.x even existed.
And they did use a basic Motorola 68000, the equivalent of an 80186 (roughly).

Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-05, 17:19:

I think that at least Rise of the Dragon was sold as 256c MCGA version and a more rare EGA version. The EGA version seems to run […]
Show full quote

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-10-03, 21:58:

HanSolo wrote on 2023-10-03, 21:09:

How does Rise of the Dragon or Heart of China run on EGA?

Both have minimal requirements of 8088 with 640KB of ram. We are in a thread named "Is there any reason to install more than 1 MB RAM on a 286 PC?"
Are there any non Windows VGA games requiring more than 1MB that will run acceptably on 286? I mentioned Sam & Max: Hit the Road because that is one of those rare games with VGA/>1MB and 286 requirements.

I think that at least Rise of the Dragon was sold as 256c MCGA version and a more rare EGA version.
The EGA version seems to run on Hercules/CGA and VGA/MCGA monochrome (mode 11h).

However, the EGA version is really ugly and very slow. On my XT w/ 4,77 MHz V20, it took about a minute until the splash screen was visible.

Edit: "Ugly" in the other video modes (not EGA), I mean. It's barely being recognizable there.

The menus in-game reacted wit one second delay, sometimes not registering keyboard presses.
Often, the keyboard would "go wild" and select random things.

Personally, back in the day, I perhaps would have had rather recommended XT users to play the Amiga version here, on a cheap A500.

Or get an used 80286 PC with 10 Mhz onwards. And any VGA card.

That's something that was easily possible, because 286 PCs were being sorted
out in the early 90s, in parts due to the increasing importance of 32-Bit architecture.

That's when they got a second life as entry-class PCs, being fine for running MS-DOS and MS Windows, still.

And that's also why memory expansion on a 286 is more important than on a 386/486, maybe.

On MS-Windows 3.x in 386 Enhanced-Mode, you can substitute real memory by virtual memory - if the CPU is an 80386 or higher.
It's slow, but it works as long as the hard-disk capacity allows for it.

On an 80286, MS-Windows 3.x in Standard-Mode does not support virtual memory, programs won't run or stop to run if physical memory is being exhausted.

So good luck writing a report about a school trip for school with lots of pictures in it.
I did that in the 90s, with analogue photos I scanned using a Mustek handy scanner.

Or let's think about writing a longer letter in MS-Works 2.
1 MB won't do it. 2MB may. 3 MB and up allow for a normal workflow.

And if someone thinks that's "overkill", please have a look at the Atari STs from the 1980s. 🙂
The Atari Mega's were sold in 1987 in 2 and 4 MB configuration, years before Windows 3.x even existed.
And they did use a basic Motorola 68000, the equivalent of an 80186 (roughly).

Lots of info!

alvaro84 wrote on 2023-10-05, 16:41:

Robbbert wrote on 2023-10-05, 02:15:

You could use HIMEM.SYS to load DOS high. This was because of a quirk in the design of the 286 which let the first 60k of extended memory be available to 16-bit programs. By doing so you freed up some memory for hungry DOS games. This means there is a very good reason to have more than 1MB in your 286 computer.

Indeed (the first 64kiB-16B to be precise) but when 1MiB was the norm it would have been insane to waste 384k - so many (most?) 286 boards could relocate that (640k-1024k) area right above the 1MiB limit and this dos=high "trick" worked with 1M 286s just fine, still leaving 320k XMS at your disposal. Which proved enough to cache a .d64 image and speed up copying to a 1541 drive quite a bit. No, the 1541 was still slow but at least it didn't have to constantly stop-start while writing the image...

Yet I DO have 286 boards with 4M and the like, for shits and giggles and some can simulate EMS too.

Oh whoa you just solved my mystery! I always wondered how could my 1 MB RAM 286 allow me to do DOS=HIGH and free up some conventional memory, if it only had 1024 KB of RAM! It was a trick!!!

Another way to look at is, if the computer has the slots for extra memory, there must be a way to use it, so put in as much RAM as you can.

After all, the slots wouldn't be there if they didn't do anything.

Robbbert wrote on 2023-10-05, 22:25:

After all, the slots wouldn't be there if they didn't do anything.

"Creating demand for RAM modules" is also "doing something" 😉