VOGONS


Reply 20 of 35, by CoffeeOne

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dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 20:43:
CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-25, 20:16:
I agree with the 2MB for a ET4000W32p, but still gain in DOS will be very small, in benchmarks the throughput will be high, but […]
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dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 19:36:

Also, look for Tseng ET4000W32P cards, as they not only use the 2MB for extra modes in Windows but the interleave improves DOS and Windows performance. Avoid Cirrus Logic GD542x cards with 2MB, due to crappy integrated RAMDAC the second MB can only be used for a few eye-melting interlaced modes. An interesting option are Trident TGUI9440 cards. They are considered slow, but aren't as bad as some other Trident cards and can use 2MB properly.
....

I agree with the 2MB for a ET4000W32p, but still gain in DOS will be very small, in benchmarks the throughput will be high, but no to very little gain in Doom (and others ....)
Fully agree with Cirrus 542x cards, the second MB does not make sense.
But fully disagree with your statement about TGUI9440 cards. 2MB are completely useless, too, at least for my VLB 9440 card.
What is better with 2MB on a Trident 9440 card?
Re: Vesa Local Bus graphics card - upgrade video memory

According to the feature sheet, the TGUI9440-2 / TGUI9440-R should already allow 1024x768@16b or 800x600@24b with 2MB. Can't confirm that from personal experiece, but can confirm that the TGUI9440AGi PCI will use 2MB properly.

That was under Linux. I strongly suspect your bad experiences are more due to poor Win98 support for this 1994 card than the card actually not being able to do it.

My VLB card has a TGUI9440AGi chip to be exact, I just checked my picture.
So either there was a fix in TGUI9440-2 or just the Windows 98SE driver I used was crap. But I remember searching hard for it, so I tend to believe it was the first possibility.
I remember reading that the TGU9440-1 is slightly faster than the TGUI9440AGi, but I only ever had this AGi.

Reply 21 of 35, by CoffeeOne

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dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 20:43:

...., but can confirm that the TGUI9440AGi PCI will use 2MB properly.
That was under Linux. I strongly suspect your bad experiences are more due to poor Win98 support for this 1994 card than the card actually not being able to do it.

Do you still know (or have you written it down?), which refresh rates you could have with your 9440AGi PCI under Linux?
I mean for 800x600 16M col, 1024x768 64k col and 1280x1024 256 colours?
Is there a table somewhere? In theory non interlaced modes should work, the internal RAMDAC seems to have 108MHz.

Reply 22 of 35, by dionb

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CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-25, 21:12:
Do you still know (or have you written it down?), which refresh rates you could have with your 9440AGi PCI under Linux? I mean f […]
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dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 20:43:

...., but can confirm that the TGUI9440AGi PCI will use 2MB properly.
That was under Linux. I strongly suspect your bad experiences are more due to poor Win98 support for this 1994 card than the card actually not being able to do it.

Do you still know (or have you written it down?), which refresh rates you could have with your 9440AGi PCI under Linux?
I mean for 800x600 16M col, 1024x768 64k col and 1280x1024 256 colours?
Is there a table somewhere? In theory non interlaced modes should work, the internal RAMDAC seems to have 108MHz.

Good question, that was a while ago and I don't have the card anymore.

There is this, which indicates mainly nasty interlaced modes on 2MB :'(

The only non-interlaced mode you gain with 2MB is - according to table 1 - 1280x1024x8b@60Hz, which is nice, but not quite as useful as 1024x768x16b@something non interlaced. It looks like the RAMDAC can do max 108MHz.

Reply 23 of 35, by CoffeeOne

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dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 21:24:
Good question, that was a while ago and I don't have the card anymore. […]
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CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-25, 21:12:
Do you still know (or have you written it down?), which refresh rates you could have with your 9440AGi PCI under Linux? I mean f […]
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dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 20:43:

...., but can confirm that the TGUI9440AGi PCI will use 2MB properly.
That was under Linux. I strongly suspect your bad experiences are more due to poor Win98 support for this 1994 card than the card actually not being able to do it.

Do you still know (or have you written it down?), which refresh rates you could have with your 9440AGi PCI under Linux?
I mean for 800x600 16M col, 1024x768 64k col and 1280x1024 256 colours?
Is there a table somewhere? In theory non interlaced modes should work, the internal RAMDAC seems to have 108MHz.

Good question, that was a while ago and I don't have the card anymore.

There is this, which indicates mainly nasty interlaced modes on 2MB :'(

The only non-interlaced mode you gain with 2MB is - according to table 1 - 1280x1024x8b@60Hz, which is nice, but not quite as useful as 1024x768x16b@something non interlaced. It looks like the RAMDAC can do max 108MHz.

Thx!
So one more mode. I need to retest my 9440AGi with 2 MB with 1280x1024, so it should work at 60Hz.
The Am5x86@160 will sweat. 1280x1024 is hard for a 486, but still I am interested.

EDIT:
I wrote
"
The Wintune value is really super low. So the card or the driver really sucks under Windows. Espcially the text scroll test was very slow.
Even when in driver info there was shown 2MB: Max for 800x600: 16bit. 1024x768 16bit is only interlaced and 1280x1024 8 bit is only interlaced, too. Expected, but still disappointing.
"
So unless I find new drivers, re-testing will be useless. 🙁

Reply 24 of 35, by dionb

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CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-25, 21:34:

[...]

So unless I find new drivers, re-testing will be useless. 🙁

Maybe look for some tests under Win3.x? Or Win95.

drivers

Reply 25 of 35, by clb

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CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-25, 21:12:

I mean for 800x600 16M col, 1024x768 64k col and 1280x1024 256 colours?

I don't know if TGUI9440AGi is fundamentally different from TGUI9440 bare. I have this card:

TridentTGUI9440.jpg
Filename
TridentTGUI9440.jpg
File size
1.72 MiB
Views
563 views
File license
Public domain

that boasts the following specs:

WITHOUT UniVBE loaded:

SNOOP.png
Filename
SNOOP.png
File size
283.99 KiB
Views
563 views
File license
Public domain

WITH UniVBE loaded:

SNOOP-univbe.png
Filename
SNOOP-univbe.png
File size
785.57 KiB
Views
563 views
File license
Public domain

Using the UNICENTER tool that comes with UniVBE, which prints the refresh rates of different VESA modes, it gives me the following:

UNICENTER_refresh_rates.png
Filename
UNICENTER_refresh_rates.png
File size
73.21 KiB
Views
563 views
File license
Public domain

I've no idea though if there might be a way to acquire higher refresh rates somehow.

Reply 26 of 35, by clb

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Testing out those modes, I find that 800x600@65 Hz 16bpp works on the VGA input of my ASUS ProArt PA248QV flat panel display, whereas 70Hz and higher no longer sync correctly, but instead give a garbled output:

UNICENTER_800x600@75.jpg
Filename
UNICENTER_800x600@75.jpg
File size
1.31 MiB
Views
552 views
File license
Public domain

In 24bpp world, I get 640x480@65 Hz, which shows up stable:

UNICENTER_640x480@24bpp@65hz.jpg
Filename
UNICENTER_640x480@24bpp@65hz.jpg
File size
1.45 MiB
Views
552 views
File license
Public domain

70 Hz also no longer synced.

In 8bpp mode, I get 1024x768@8bpp@75 Hz stable via CRT Terminator Passthrough mode (i.e. not using VGA):

UNICENTER-1024x768@8bpp_75Hz_passthrough.png
Filename
UNICENTER-1024x768@8bpp_75Hz_passthrough.png
File size
327.52 KiB
Views
552 views
File license
Public domain

Not sure if any of this is relevant or useful, though just thought to share.

Reply 27 of 35, by CoffeeOne

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clb wrote on 2024-01-25, 21:51:
I don't know if TGUI9440AGi is fundamentally different from TGUI9440 bare. I have this card: […]
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CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-25, 21:12:

I mean for 800x600 16M col, 1024x768 64k col and 1280x1024 256 colours?

I don't know if TGUI9440AGi is fundamentally different from TGUI9440 bare. I have this card:

TridentTGUI9440.jpg

that boasts the following specs:

WITHOUT UniVBE loaded:

SNOOP.png

WITH UniVBE loaded:

SNOOP-univbe.png

Using the UNICENTER tool that comes with UniVBE, which prints the refresh rates of different VESA modes, it gives me the following:

UNICENTER_refresh_rates.png

I've no idea though if there might be a way to acquire higher refresh rates somehow.

So you are confirming what I wrote in my old task, am I correct? TGUI9440 with 2MB is useless. The only benefit seems the startup screen with 2048kB, which looks nice.
Also empty RAM sockets look ugly, so better fill it.

Reply 28 of 35, by clb

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Expanding VRAM from 1MB to 2MB has the potential (chip and RAMDAC clock speeds and memory bus latency speed permitting) to unlock the following video modes:
- 1280x1024@256 colors, 1600x1200@256 colors,
- 1024x768@15/16bpp,
- 800x600@24bpp

(in many adapters some or all of these modes come in interlaced mode, if pixel and VRAM clock speeds aren't fast enough)

Looking at the reported video mode tables, the adapter does report supporting 1280x1024@256 colors. Also, I see in the report that the adapter VESA list has a gray [-] on 1024x768@16bpp and 800x600@24bpp which I typically see to mean "the Video BIOS could support these, if you had enough VRAM installed".. but maybe in this case something else is holding it back. In this adapter's case, it looks like expanding to 2MB only has unlocked that 1280x1024@256 colors mode.

Reply 29 of 35, by CoffeeOne

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clb wrote on 2024-01-25, 22:14:
Expanding VRAM from 1MB to 2MB has the potential (chip and RAMDAC clock speeds and memory bus latency speed permitting) to unloc […]
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Expanding VRAM from 1MB to 2MB has the potential (chip and RAMDAC clock speeds and memory bus latency speed permitting) to unlock the following video modes:
- 1280x1024@256 colors, 1600x1200@256 colors,
- 1024x768@15/16bpp,
- 800x600@24bpp

(in many adapters some or all of these modes come in interlaced mode, if pixel and VRAM clock speeds aren't fast enough)

Looking at the reported video mode tables, the adapter does report supporting 1280x1024@256 colors. Also, I see in the report that the adapter VESA list has a gray [-] on 1024x768@16bpp and 800x600@24bpp which I typically see to mean "the Video BIOS could support these, if you had enough VRAM installed".. but maybe in this case something else is holding it back. In this adapter's case, it looks like expanding to 2MB only has unlocked that 1280x1024@256 colors mode.

And? Are you able to somehow get a picture with your card in 1280x1024 256 colours with 60Hz (non interlaced!)?

Reply 30 of 35, by clb

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No such luck I'm afraid. When I try, I am greeted with

1280x1024@8bpp.jpg
Filename
1280x1024@8bpp.jpg
File size
1.63 MiB
Views
499 views
File license
Public domain

and I am not sure what the issue is, whether it is interlacing or otherwise.. or whether the display is at struggle or the card.

I see there is a jumper on the board along with instructions "Noninterlaced/Interlaced", so tried flipping that for good measure, but didn't seem to affect anything.

Reply 31 of 35, by CoffeeOne

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clb wrote on 2024-01-25, 22:31:
No such luck I'm afraid. When I try, I am greeted with […]
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No such luck I'm afraid. When I try, I am greeted with

1280x1024@8bpp.jpg

and I am not sure what the issue is, whether it is interlacing or otherwise.. or whether the display is at struggle or the card.

I see there is a jumper on the board along with instructions "Noninterlaced/Interlaced", so tried flipping that for good measure, but didn't seem to affect anything.

Great, so I could finally convince you to remove the second megabyte.

Reply 32 of 35, by clb

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Uhh, I confused you for the OP, and thought you were seeking advice.

Anyhow, I don't know why but you seem like you are out to prove some point based on some other conversation..(?)

Not sure why I should remove the memory, it would just get lost somewhere and end up in the trash. I'll rather keep it where it is.

Sorry OP for siderailing noise to your thread.

Reply 33 of 35, by CoffeeOne

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clb wrote on 2024-01-25, 22:39:
Uhh, I confused you for the OP, and thought you were seeking advice. […]
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Uhh, I confused you for the OP, and thought you were seeking advice.

Anyhow, I don't know why but you seem like you are out to prove some point based on some other conversation..(?)

Not sure why I should remove the memory, it would just get lost somewhere and end up in the trash. I'll rather keep it where it is.

Sorry OP for siderailing noise to your thread.

@OP I am sorry, too, for spamming your thread.
But I was curious about the claim that upgrading a Trident 9440 to 2 MB is useful. Thx for confirming it is not, it saves a lot of my time.

Reply 34 of 35, by Scythifuge

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A replacement Diamond Stealth Trio64 2mb card arrived, today. The seller showed pics of it working, so I decided to buy it. It has a copyright of 1994 on the card. It worked, straightaway. I don't know if any of the previous S3 chips are considered better with color, speed, and compatibility, but I have a Diamond S3 based card from the era to go alongside my Diamond branded, OPTi based K2Y-Pro16 with an OPTi daughterboard and a Roland MPU-IPC-T, and I am giving up on finding a Diamond branded 56k hardware modem and will use an external modem so I can put a 3com ISA NIC in there, so I am considering this build completed, other than perhaps swapping the CF/IDE drive out for an SD/IDE drive. I have a working 17"CRT since I have had trouble finding a working 19" CRT, but I also have an OSSC and a 4k display with VRR so 70Hz in DOS is no problem. I also scored a practically unused Reveal AT keyboard, and have a PS2 optical mouse. Labtec speakers for the soundcard and a Tandy speaker unit under the monitor to provide sound for the external Roland units (some games were having a difficult time playing FM sounds through the speaker out AND Roland stuff through the Line-In, so the Tandy unit resolves that problem.)

Now I can actually use this 486 for fun and for my projects!