Some basic benchmarks attached. All 3DMark tests are using default settings.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-22, 06:02:

Hi all, just in the process of documenting my retro PC builds and thought I’d share this with you all as this community has been a great help to me getting these built. This is the first of three or four I plan to share, enjoy.

Thats's a very nice rig! Good choice on the parts, you have built a very compatible and high performing Win9x machine.

I use the technical method of ‘unplugging the IDE cable and plugging it back into the other HDD’ to switch between operating systems, ie, I haven’t bothered with a bootloader yet.

As long as each OS is installed on a separate drive, you can select which drive to boot from by using the BIOS boot menu (if the motherboard has one). However, if you ever reinstall one of the operating systems, it may choose to put its boot loader on the primary master drive, regardless of where it was before. A dedicated boot manager like Plop can rectify this by making certain partitions/drives invisible to each other.

Headphones: Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones - I’ve had these bad boys since 2009 and they’re great. I have a baby and a toddler, so headphones are a must. I plan to pair this with a headphone amp

If you get a headphone amp with SPDIF input, there is a simple way to hook that up to any Audigy card, to get cleaner sound. Basically, you need a mono 3.5mm to RCA adapter which you plug into the digital out port of the Audigy. Then, plug a coaxial SPDIF cable into the adapter, and connect the other end to the SPDIF in of the headphone amp. You may also need to enable the "Digital Output Only" setting in the drivers for this to work. Here's an example of me doing that on a SBLive 5.1, but it's pretty much the same for Audigy cards.

Alternatively, if you can find an Audigy 2 ZS front panel, it has a dedicated headphone jack and a volume knob, which makes it very convenient. Sadly, these seem to have become somewhat rare nowadays, at least in my neck of the woods.

I’m messing around with two P4 HT rigs tho due to lack of knowledge mine seem to be either home/office desktops with limited expansion due to between having pci slots and one pci-e x1 slot. So finding cards that fit and work in the 98/xp build is challenging. Tho I have a new untested motherboard that has a combo of x16 x1 and pci so looking forward to tinkering with that still working on getting xp on the sata drive for one of them but my floppy drive is arriving this week so fingers crossed.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-02-22, 07:02:

Thats's a very nice rig! Good choice on the parts, you have built a very compatible and high performing Win9x machine.

Thanks! It was a very enjoyable to put together, and for me a great entry point into the hobby.

As long as each OS is installed on a separate drive, you can select which drive to boot from by using the BIOS boot menu (if the motherboard has one). However, if you ever reinstall one of the operating systems, it may choose to put its boot loader on the primary master drive, regardless of where it was before. A dedicated boot manager like Plop can rectify this by making certain partitions/drives invisible to each other.

Yeah, the motherboard does have a BIOS boot menu so I can give this a go - does it work if one of the HDDs is a slave on the IDE channel? Unfortunately the configuration in this case makes it difficult to have the optical drive as a slave, given the location of the HDDs.

If you get a headphone amp with SPDIF input, there is a simple way to hook that up to any Audigy card, to get cleaner sound. Basically, you need a mono 3.5mm to RCA adapter which you plug into the digital out port of the Audigy. Then, plug a coaxial SPDIF cable into the adapter, and connect the other end to the SPDIF in of the headphone amp. You may also need to enable the "Digital Output Only" setting in the drivers for this to work. Here's an example of me doing that on a SBLive 5.1, but it's pretty much the same for Audigy cards.

Alternatively, if you can find an Audigy 2 ZS front panel, it has a dedicated headphone jack and a volume knob, which makes it very convenient. Sadly, these seem to have become somewhat rare nowadays, at least in my neck of the woods.

That's the plan, I'm eyeing up a Fiio K5 pro which has coaxial and optical in, as well as analog for my older PC. This actually answers a question I had about the digital output on the audigy and live! cards. I had assumed it was as you've described, but had read somewhere (not these forums) that the digital out was intended for creative speakers (which I was sceptical about). I'd also read about using a separate bracket connected to the pins where you connect the front panel (though that was to get optical rather than coaxial out), or just getting the front panel to get SPDIF out. This made me wonder if there was something different/proprietary about that digital out port, but good to confirm it's just a standard coaxial out!

I've seen a few of the Audigy 2 Platinum pro external units locally, but not the front panel (seen a couple of live drives though). Honestly, now that I know it is just a standard digital coaxial, it sounds like it's going to suit my needs really well. Thanks for that!

Martli wrote on 2024-02-22, 09:17:

Yeah, the motherboard does have a BIOS boot menu so I can give this a go - does it work if one of the HDDs is a slave on the IDE channel? Unfortunately the configuration in this case makes it difficult to have the optical drive as a slave, given the location of the HDDs.

I haven't tried that with a hard drive configured as slave, but as long as the boot menu lists the actual disk by name, it should work.

That's the plan, I'm eyeing up a Fiio K5 pro which has coaxial and optical in, as well as analog for my older PC. This actually answers a question I had about the digital output on the audigy and live! cards. I had assumed it was as you've described, but had read somewhere (not these forums) that the digital out was intended for creative speakers (which I was sceptical about).

That is also true, the digital out jack can be used for a variety of tasks. But I think you need a special 3.5mm to mini-din cable for Creative's 5.1 speakers. On the other hand, stereo speakers work just fine with a simple adapter as described above.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-02-22, 09:48:

I haven't tried that with a hard drive configured as slave, but as long as the boot menu lists the actual disk by name, it should work.

I'll give it a crack and report back!

That is also true, the digital out jack can be used for a variety of tasks. But I think you need a special 3.5mm to mini-din cable for Creative's 5.1 speakers. On the other hand, stereo speakers work just fine with a simple adapter as described above.

Great, I can't really go beyond stereo/2.1 in my current setup anyway so sounds perfect!

Very nice build!

In particular, I like how the chosen components are not top of the line, but rather only carefully chosen to just fit the purpose the rig was intended for.

My only "complaint" would be towards the stock cooler on your Abit Siluro Geforce 4 4200TI. I have several of these same type of coolers from various nVidia video cards (mostly failed 8400 GS). I don't want to call them garbage, but rather just often inadequately chosen (by the manufacturer) for cooling the cards they were put onto. While the GF4 4200TI is pretty tame in terms of power consumption (about 20W TDP, tops, IIRC), I would still suggest changing its stock cooler to something better. Note, for example, the stock cooler that MSI used on their 4200TI, as shown in this thread:
GeForce4 Ti 4200 replacement fan?
^ The cooler there has a lot more fins, resulting in much larger surface area (and much lower temperatures for the GPU chip.)

Given the age (and now rarity) of some of this retro hardware, an upgraded cooler should be a good way to prolong its useful life.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-22, 06:02:

GraphicsMy original graphics card was a PNY Geforce 6200 with 256mb of memory. I acquired this for fairly cheap at the start of this build and assumed it was good because it had a ‘6’ in it and 256mb of memory. After a while when I started benchmarking, I realised it wasn’t performing well, likely due to the 64-bit bus and because I was using much newer drivers. It also had fairly poor DOS compatibility so I had to move on (having not yet built my other rigs).

Yeah, those GF6200 cards with TC (Turbo Cache) are pretty poor 3D performers. The 64-bit bus is definitely one of the reasons why, but not the only one.
I can't recall if there were any AGP versions of the 6200 with a 6600(LE) GPU, but I do have one in PCI-E flavor. It essentially unlocks to a 6600LE (8 pixel, 3 vertex shaders) and can overclock nicely with a larger cooler. If there were any for AGP, they should be 128 MB versions and with 128-bit bus.
... though in the case of this build, or any Windows 9x build for that matter, I suppose this is a moot point, since GF 6 series just don't have good performing drivers for Win 9x.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-22, 06:02:

I love these barracuda drives, they’re nice and quick and my particular models are fairly late-era so no issues with bad sectors etc. yet.

Barracuda 7200.7 are my all-time favorite drives. They tend to be very reliable - moreso than many other drives from that era and beyond.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-22, 06:02:

Winamp (winamp winamp) is there because it whips the llama’s ass. Who didn’t use winamp back in the day? For me there’s no better way to enjoy 90s heavy metal, ideally in CD or MP3 format. Too bad I don’t have Napster to go with it. Bonus picture attached of a small selection of my old 80s/90s/200s nostalgia CDs (including a couple of local acts from the 90s/2000s).

Hell yea, WinAmp FTW!
I still install it (version 5.5 usually) on just about every computer I own, and not just the retro PCs (then again, most of my computer fleet can be considered "retro", because the newest I have is 4th gen i7 with Windows 10.)

As for music choices: I never got into 90's heavy metal like Metallica and Slayer, but have been skirting around them with related genres (punk rock, nu metal, and early 2k's post-grunge / alternative). I see you have Offspring - Americana on that rack. That album and Smash are among my top favorite from this genre of music. What's probably more amusing is that I just finished listening to them a little bit before logging onto Vogons today... and perhaps a funny coincidence that I'm doing so from a Pentium 4 Prescott computer nonetheless - a Dell Optiplex 170L , with Windows XP Pro, and also based on an Intel i865 chipset. <- This is actually still one of my daily driver PCs (since 2013, when I got it), despite its age.

Greywolf1 wrote on 2024-02-22, 09:12:

I’m messing around with two P4 HT rigs tho due to lack of knowledge mine seem to be either home/office desktops with limited expansion due to between having pci slots and one pci-e x1 slot. So finding cards that fit and work in the 98/xp build is challenging.

If there is space behind the PCI-E x1 slot, as in, no components to get in the way if you were to fit a full x16 card, then you can take a sharp razor and cut out a notch at the back of the 1x slot to allow it to fit 8x and 16x cards. I've done this on several motherboards, and it works fine. The video cards will just run in 1x PCI-E mode, which should still be OK for most 9x era games. The real challenge will be if the motherboard BIOS actually recognizes the GPU in the 1x slot and defaults to displaying the video output from it. A lot of home/office OEM machines tend to have very limited BIOSes and may not want to play they way you want them with your hardware. But it's still certainly worth a shot.

momaka wrote on 2024-02-25, 10:41:

Very nice build!

In particular, I like how the chosen components are not top of the line, but rather only carefully chosen to just fit the purpose the rig was intended for.

Thanks!

My only "complaint" would be towards the stock cooler on your Abit Siluro Geforce 4 4200TI. I have several of these same type of […]
Show full quote

My only "complaint" would be towards the stock cooler on your Abit Siluro Geforce 4 4200TI. I have several of these same type of coolers from various nVidia video cards (mostly failed 8400 GS). I don't want to call them garbage, but rather just often inadequately chosen (by the manufacturer) for cooling the cards they were put onto. While the GF4 4200TI is pretty tame in terms of power consumption (about 20W TDP, tops, IIRC), I would still suggest changing its stock cooler to something better. Note, for example, the stock cooler that MSI used on their 4200TI, as shown in this thread:
GeForce4 Ti 4200 replacement fan?
^ The cooler there has a lot more fins, resulting in much larger surface area (and much lower temperatures for the GPU chip.)

Given the age (and now rarity) of some of this retro hardware, an upgraded cooler should be a good way to prolong its useful life.

Yeah that's a great idea - good catch. I did a bit of a search after seeing that thread a few days ago and have found a few options, albeit on the pricier side (mostly shipping for me, boooo), but I do plan to keep looking. Lots of stuff from China to filter through as always...

Hell yea, WinAmp FTW!
I still install it (version 5.5 usually) on just about every computer I own, and not just the retro PCs (then again, most of my computer fleet can be considered "retro", because the newest I have is 4th gen i7 with Windows 10.)

As for music choices: I never got into 90's heavy metal like Metallica and Slayer, but have been skirting around them with related genres (punk rock, nu metal, and early 2k's post-grunge / alternative). I see you have Offspring - Americana on that rack. That album and Smash are among my top favorite from this genre of music. What's probably more amusing is that I just finished listening to them a little bit before logging onto Vogons today... and perhaps a funny coincidence that I'm doing so from a Pentium 4 Prescott computer nonetheless - a Dell Optiplex 170L , with Windows XP Pro, and also based on an Intel i865 chipset. <- This is actually still one of my daily driver PCs (since 2013, when I got it), despite its age.

It's just not an early 2000s computer experience without it right? While games were a big part of PCs for me back then, it was also internet forums, instant messaging clients, iRC, and most of that was centred around talking about music. While I can't (and don't really want to) recreate any of that, it's still part of the nostalgia package. Americana was my 'gateway' album back in '99 that lead to many great discoveries in both punk and metal, and I went pretty far down both rabbit holes. Smash is definitely peak Offspring, ixnay is also a great album. Great to see your pentium 4 is still going strong after all these years.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-25, 20:12:

Yeah that's a great idea - good catch. I did a bit of a search after seeing that thread a few days ago and have found a few options, albeit on the pricier side (mostly shipping for me, boooo), but I do plan to keep looking. Lots of stuff from China to filter through as always...

Something like these universal VGA coolers should work pretty well:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393688612418
I've never used one, so personally I cannot attest to how good of a quality their fan would be. But the heatsink itself looks decently made and large enough to handle around 30-40 Watts TDP... which should be plenty for a 4200TI and even a 4400 & 4600TI.

Alternatively, measure out the screw distance on your card and look for some nVidia cards on your local market (dead or alive) that have a cooler that might fit. It doesn't have to be from the same model of video card or even from the same period/era for the heatsink to match. For example, heatsinks with only 2 screw posts with either 55 mm or 80 mm diagonal distance were quite common for lower-end nVidia cards. I've successfully fitted stock XFX 8600 GT coolers (80 mm diagonal distance) on a TI4600 and also a 7300 GT AGP. On the 4600TI, I had to rotate the cooler 180 degrees, but miraculously it fit without needing modifications. For the 7300GT, I had to grind a few notches into the cooler where the crystal was on the video card to make it fit, but nothing too dramatic.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-25, 20:12:

It's just not an early 2000s computer experience without it right?

Interesting, I never though about it this way, probably since I never stopped using WinAmp. But I can definitely see what you mean now if I tried to show someone that's never gone through that era or re-experienced it for a while.

Yup, I also miss that era of internet as well, especially the forum communities - there were just so many!

I've been maintaining/expanding my MP3 library pretty much since then. Don't know why, buy I never got sold onto any of the streaming services (well, probably because I never got into or cared for smartphones). The way everything is going with software nowadays trying to become a pay-for-service rather than a product, I've been starting to hang onto and appreciate older software and hardware even more.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-25, 20:12:

Americana was my 'gateway' album back in '99 that lead to many great discoveries in both punk and metal, and I went pretty far down both rabbit holes. Smash is definitely peak Offspring, ixnay is also a great album.

Cool.
The internet back then was definitely great for that... and still is, to an extent.

For me, the "getaways" were Rise Against, Story of the Year, Lost Prophets, and similar, all of which I "discovered" through Need For Speed Underground and Underground 2.
I've always had a liking for Offspring, but strangely enough never went out to look for their CDs up until recently. In fact, it's been the same for many other artists too. Between 2007 and 2018, I just strayed on my own path with mostly underground genres... and it wasn't until maybe a few years ago that I decided to take a deep dive again to re-discover more 80's, 90's, and early 2000's music that I missed.

Martli wrote on 2024-02-25, 20:12:

Great to see your pentium 4 is still going strong after all these years.

Thanks!
Yes, at this point, I'm still pushing it around just to see how much longer a P4 can be used on the modern web. Answer: probably not much, at least when it comes to entertainment, especially sites with heavy scripting. However, it still holds OK for office, admin, and bookkeeping tasks.
I actually have two of these machines, both of which I acquired 2nd hand around late 2012. Prior to that, I was told they were office machines used as front-desk / front kiosk. So they had lots of hours of service on their clock already (and the amount of dust I cleaned out from them was a good evidence of this.) In early 2013, I re-built the 1st one for my personal use as a main PC... and pretty much never retired it since then. Thanks to 3rd party browsers for old retro machines like MyPal, I've been able to push it for much longer than anticipated. The 2nd Optiplex 170L system has only been brought out recently for me to use as a mirror-image of the 1st, but in a different location. If web system requirements didn't become so bloated as they are today, these would still be perfectly fine machines to use day-to-day for just about anything (apart from HD video streaming, of course.)

Anyways, sorry for all of the off-topic comments.
Vintage/retro builds always get me carried away into the "good ol' times" from back then. 😁