asdf53 wrote on 2024-02-25, 08:53:

I'm trying to get table fog enabled on my Radeon 8500 LE under Windows 98, but I'm having no luck so far. I tried drivers from 2001-2003, also followed the guide from this thread where someone had enabled it on his Radeon 8500 using Rage3D tweak, but it did nothing for me.

Try uninstalling your current drivers and then install Catalyst 6.2. After that, apply this registry tweak. That worked for me on a Radeon 9250, which is relatively close to your 8500 in terms of architecture.

Under Windows 98, table fog doesn't work on Radeons by default, but it can be enabled with a registry setting. Can someone confirm this?

This is generally correct, but in some games like Shadows of the Empire, table fog will not work on Radeon cards under Win9x even with the registry tweaks applied. It's an unreliable fix.

Under Windows XP, it works out of the box with newer drivers

Correct. You just need Catalyst 7.11 or newer. However, note that those drivers aren't compatible with some older Radeon cards.

And here's the DirectX 6 SDK that contains the dxview.exe to check if 8-bit paletted textures are supported. You don't need to install the SDK, use 7zip to extract "bin\DXUtil\dxview.exe" from the installer archive.

I found that to be an unreliable testing method. On some cards, it would report a feature as supported (likely due to driver fakery) but in actual games it wouldn't work. Use the Final Fantasy 8 demo for a quick and easy test of paletted textures.

Thanks a lot for your help. I got excited for a moment because my registry WFog entry was set to "1" instead of "0", but sadly that didn't help. I tried Catalyst 4.3 and 6.2, tried the same card that you used (I also have a Radeon 9250), made sure that the registry is purged from all the ATI entries before installing the drivers, but it just refuses to display the fog.

Now that you mention that Shadows of the Empire won't work no matter what, I'm starting to believe this could also be true for the Thief 2 demo. These are the only games I've tried so far, so I will now try another test game from this thread, preferrably one that doesn't require a big download or a savegame.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-02-25, 10:04:

Now that you mention that Shadows of the Empire won't work no matter what, I'm starting to believe this could also be true for the Thief 2 demo. These are the only games I've tried so far, so I will now try another test game from this thread, preferrably one that doesn't require a big download or a savegame.

I never tested the Thief 2 demo with this, but the full game (patched to version 1.18) does display the fog on my Radeon 9250 with that registry tweak.

Note that even if this tweak is successful, the fog rendering on Radeon cards will look different (worse) than on 3DFX/Nvidia/Matrox cards under Win9x. The only way to get perfectly accurate table fog on Radeon cards is to use WinXP and Catalyst 7.11 or newer.

P.S.

Be sure to use the retail CD version of Thief 2 for this test, as the GOG/Steam releases come with some fan made fixes pre-applied, which skews the testing results.

I only had the game on Steam (for anyone curious, the Steam version wouldn't even launch on Windows 98), so I had to download the retail version which took some time. The suspicions were confirmed: The fog is working in the retail version with the registry settings, but it doesn't in the demo. You'd think that if they share the same engine, the fog would either work in both or not at all, strange. I had an idea that the ATI driver might apply the fog based on the game's executable name, so I tried renaming "thief2demo.exe" to "thief2.exe", but that didn't work. I also tried the 1nsane demo and it had no fog.

That's quite disappointing overall. I could live with the fog effect not being perfect, but so far it seems to be not working in a lot of games. But in any case, thanks a lot for your helpful reply and the Thief savegame. At least I know that everything now works as it should.

One interesting thing left to try is: Will the fog work in the Thief2 demo using Windows XP and the newer drivers? I'm really curious if that fixes it. I might try that in the following days and post the result here.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-02-25, 13:55:

One interesting thing left to try is: Will the fog work in the Thief2 demo using Windows XP and the newer drivers? I'm really curious if that fixes it. I might try that in the following days and post the result here.

Table fog provided by Catalyst 7.11 works fine in Shadows of the Empire (and looks correct) so I'm guessing it might work for the Thief 2 demo as well. Unless the demo was hardcoded to only display fog on known compatible cards at the time of its release.

BTW, I remember not being able to install Catalyst 7.11 on my Radeon 9250. The card was unsupported on the account of being too old. Newer Radeons like my 9550 and X800 worked fine with those drivers.

I found out that 1NSANE (2000) does not appear to use table fog. I have tested it with Nvidia cards and toggled table fog on and off with a registry setting. This had no effect, the fog always shows, suggesting that the game does not seem to use table fog at all. I have also tested two Radeon cards, a 8500 (RV200) and a 9600 (RV300). The Radeon 9600 shows fog, the Radeon 8500 doesn't, regardless of the registry settings.

Edit: What I said above only goes for the demo version of 1NSANE. It turns out that the retail version of the game does use table fog, and the Nvidia fog setting does have an effect. No difference on ATI, though. Here's how it looks like with the retail version:

Note to self, never again use demo versions of games to test if table fog is working.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 09:30:

I found out that 1NSANE (2000) does not appear to use table fog. Some Radeon cards will indeed not display the fog, but this seems to be a rendering error that is specific to the card model and possibly the driver version. I have tested a Radeon 8500 (RV200) and a Radeon 9600 (RV300) with Catalyst 6.2 and the table fog registry setting enabled. The Radeon 8500 does not show fog, but the Radeon 9600 does.

For testing table fog use, it's always best to leave the drivers at the default settings. No registry tweaks, or any third party utilities should be used.

I have also tested it with Nvidia cards and toggled the fog on and off with a registry setting. This had no effect, the fog always shows, futher suggesting that the game does not seem to use table fog at all.

I found that to be an unreliable method. Newer Nvidia cards (starting from the original GeForce and up) have native ways of displaying table fog and don't need to rely on emulation like the TNT and Riva cards. You can read about that here. Relevant bit:

1The RIVA 128, RIVA128ZX and the RIVA TNT all emulate table fog using vertex based fog. The GeForce 256 supports table fog in hardware.

The only reliable way to test is to use a graphics card which doesn't support table fog in hardware and see if there's a difference. Ideally, you would use more than one of those cards for the test. For example, if the fog shows up on a Voodoo 3 and a GeForce 2, but doesn't display on a Radeon, an S3 UniChrome and a Permedia 2, there's a decent chance that it's table fog.

I think that this Nvidia driver setting for table fog is actually a good way to test it, because if we rely on using different card models, it's impossible to determine if the presence or absence of fog is due to hardware support or rendering errors particular to that card. For example we have now this:

Geforce: Supports fog, shows fog in Insane
Radeon: Does not support fog, shows fog in Insane
Kyro: Supports fog, shows no fog in Insane
Rendition Verite: Does not support fog, no fog in Insane

That's completely random, it's impossible to come to a conclusion from that.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 10:29:

I think that this Nvidia driver setting for table fog is actually a good way to test it, because if we rely on using different card models, it's impossible to determine if the presence or absence of fog is due to hardware support or rendering errors particular to that card.

That's fine if you use a TNT or Riva card, since they have no table fog support in hardware. In that case, the fog emulation toggle in the drivers/registry will actually have the desired effect. But if you use a GeForce and up, turning off table fog emulation it will likely just cause a fallback to hardware support.

Radeon: Does not support fog, shows fog in Insane
Kyro: Supports fog, shows no fog in Insane

Radeon doesn't show fog in Insane by default, only with the tweak. At least that's how it was during my tests. The Kyro thing is weird though, but those cards had some quirky drivers, so maybe that played a role.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-03-05, 10:40:

That's fine if you use a TNT or Riva card, since they have no table fog support in hardware. In that case, the fog emulation toggle in the drivers/registry will actually have the desired effect. But if you use a GeForce and up, turning off table fog emulation it will likely just cause a fallback to hardware support.

I believe this Nvidia driver switch is called "Disable Table Fog emulation" in PowerStrip, I don't know the name of the actual registry key. But despite it referring to just table fog "emulation", this switch completely shut off table fog on Geforce cards for me, even if they support it in hardware.

I haven't tested a lot of games yet, though: Thief 2, Thief 2 demo, SotE, 1NSANE. Should at least add a couple more. I've also tested Hidden & Dangerous (a 1999 tactical shooter with lots of foggy environments), but that doesn't seem to use table fog.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 11:05:

I believe this Nvidia driver switch is called "Disable Table Fog emulation" in PowerStrip, I don't know the name of the actual registry key. But despite it referring to just table fog "emulation", this switch completely shut off table fog on Geforce cards for me, even if they support it in hardware.

That setting exists in the Nvidia driver panel as well (assuming it's the same thing). I have a TNT2 card so I can take a look how toggling this affects Insane.

I haven't tested a lot of games yet, though: Thief 2, Thief 2 demo, SotE, 1NSANE. Should at least add a couple more. I've also tested Hidden & Dangerous (a 1999 tactical shooter with lots of foggy environments), but that doesn't seem to use table fog.

Just checking, did you use the retail version of Insane with the latest official patch applied? If not, that might explain some of the differences. In particular, GOG is infamous for integrating fan made fixes into their releases, without mentioning that anywhere. I haven't checked their Insane release, but their Thief 2 version definitively includes fan made stuff like T2Fix.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-03-05, 11:11:

Just checking, did you use the retail version of Insane with the latest official patch? If not, that might explain some of the differences. In particular, GOG is infamous for integrating fan made fixes into their releases, without mentioning that anywhere. I haven't checked their Insane release, but their Thief 2 version definitively includes fan made stuff like TFix.

I had initially tested the demo version, but after the strange results I went on to confirm it using your setup (retail version + patch). I did not bother testing the GOG version as many of their releases do not work properly on Windows 9x, and as mentioned who knows what patches are already integrated.

I have also tested the Radeons again using stock settings (I had only tested with the table fog enabled registry keys). I deleted all ATI registry keys and reinstalled the driver, but the result is the same.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 11:45:

I had initially tested the demo version, but after the strange results I went on to confirm it using your setup (retail version + patch). I did not bother testing the GOG version as many of their releases do not work properly on Windows 9x, and as mentioned who knows what patches are already integrated.

For reference, here's how I've tested, including game version, graphics cards and driver versions.

I have also tested the Radeons again using stock settings (I had only tested with the table fog enabled registry keys). I deleted all ATI registry keys and reinstalled the driver, but the result is the same.

You mean you get fog in Insane on a Radeon without any tweaks at all? This doesn't match my results. When I test, I always do a clean install (or rather restore the installation from a backup image) with all driver settings at their defaults.

BTW, I've just now done a test on my TNT2 using driver version 12.41 and here's the result:

I toggled the setting directly from the Nvidia driver panel:

As can be seen, turning table fog emulation off does have an effect on the game. Not the one I expected, but still.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-02-25, 13:55:

One interesting thing left to try is: Will the fog work in the Thief2 demo using Windows XP and the newer drivers? I'm really curious if that fixes it. I might try that in the following days and post the result here.

Coming back to this: Yes, the fog in Thief 2 demo works using Catalyst 7.11. This game is unusual because it doesn't have fog on many cards that do otherwise support fog (S3 Savage4, Kyro, Riva 128), so one might assume that the game had hardcoded support for a handful of known cards (TNT2, Voodoo 3). That seems to be not true.

I then wondered if you could force install Cataylst 7.11 on older, unsupported R200 cards (Radeon 8500, 9250) by adding their PCI ID to the driver's .inf file. With this hack, the 9250 boots into Windows and can play OpenGL games, but sadly Direct3D games would not launch. The 8500 is even worse, the desktop keeps going black and games would not launch either.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-03-05, 12:08:

You mean you get fog in Insane on a Radeon without any tweaks at all? This doesn't match my results. When I test, I always do a clean install (or rather restore the installation from a backup image) with all driver settings at their defaults.

Yes, with a Radeon 9600. You were using a Radeon 9250, right? The Radeon 9250 is a R200 card, for me those never have fog in the game, no matter what settings, while the R300 cards (Radeon 9600, 9700) always have the fog, again no matter the registry settings.

BTW, I've just now done a test on my TNT2 using driver version 12.41 and here's the result:

That's really interesting! I hadn't tested this setting with my TNT yet, I'll be sure to test it myself and see how the games react to it. What about these other types of fog called "Vertex Fog", "Z-Fog"? Could it be that the game is using these, and that's why the TNT reacts to the fog switch differently?

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 12:18:

Coming back to this: Yes, the fog in Thief 2 demo works using Catalyst 7.11. This game is unusual because it doesn't have fog on many cards that do otherwise support fog (S3 Savage4, Kyro, Riva 128)

S3 Savage 4 does support table fog, but it renders it differently (much more faint) than 3DFX or Nvidia cards. Screenshots can be found here.

If you haven't already done so, I suggest checking the references of the Vogons wiki page. They will take you to the relevant forum posts with screenshots and other details. In case of the Savage 4, another reference links to its datasheet which also lists table fog support.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 12:18:

Yes, with a Radeon 9600. You were using a Radeon 9250, right? The Radeon 9250 is a R200 card, for me those never have fog in the game, no matter what settings, while the R300 cards (Radeon 9600, 9700) always have the fog, again no matter the registry settings.

Yeah, I've tested Insane on a 9250. As for other games, I've tested some on a 9550 and others on an X800 card and the result was always the same for me. No table fog on Radeons by default, can be enabled via registry tweak in certain titles only.

That's really interesting! I hadn't tested this setting with my TNT yet, I'll be sure to test it myself and see how the games react to it. What about these other types of fog called "Vertex Fog", "Z-Fog"? Could it be that the game is using these, and that's why the TNT reacts to the fog switch differently?

I mean, if it doesn't use table fog, disabling the setting on the TNT2 shouldn't do anything, but it does. Maybe the game has some sort of fallback to different fog types on unsupported cards.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-03-05, 12:41:

I mean, if it doesn't use table fog, disabling the setting on the TNT2 shouldn't do anything, but it does. Maybe the game has some sort of fallback to different fog types on unsupported cards.

Let's assume the game uses Vertex fog. The TNT can only do vertex fog, and when the driver switch disables it, it's gone. But the Geforce can do vertex and table fog, and on it, this switch works differently, it disables only the table fog, but leaves the vertex fog enabled and still working. It's just speculation but that is what I could imagine.

Regarding the Savage4, I really meant just the demo of Thief 2. It works fine on the retail version. The demo fog is the only thing that didn't work on my Savage4. It's the same behavior with the Kyro and the Radeon + registry tweak.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 13:00:

Let's assume the game uses Vertex fog. The TNT can only do vertex fog, and when the driver switch disables it, it's gone. But the Geforce can do vertex and table fog, and on it, this switch works differently, it disables only the table fog, but leaves the vertex fog enabled and still working. It's just speculation but that is what I could imagine.

It's possible, but I don't think disabling table fog in the driver should also disable vertex fog. The setting is designated for table fog emulation only.

BTW, I just checked Insane on my X800 and the fog does render on it. Catalyst 6.2 under Win98SE, no registry tweaks. So either ATi made some improvements with their later cards (as I've speculated here) or the game uses a different type of fog. Or maybe it has a fallback mode which somehow works on later Radeons, but not on older ones.

We could try games that use some type of fog, but NOT table fog. And then disable the table fog driver setting on the TNT. If it produces similar glitches, it would likely mean that this setting also affects vertex fog.

Okay, so after some more testing: The Nvidia table fog switch has no effect on the demo version of Insane, but it does on the retail version. I had installed driver 12.41 as you did to compare the behavior of a TNT and a Geforce with disabled table fog emulation, both produced the same glitch in Insane. So my theory of the cards reacting differently was wrong. But that also got me thinking, why did that switch suddenly have an effect on the Geforce when it previously didn't? Could it be that the demo and retail version of Insane behave differently on Nvidia cards? This was the only thing that I didn't test, and that was of course it. So my initial post is wrong, turning table fog off / on in the driver does indeed make a difference on Geforce cards.

This leaves some questions: Why does the game have fog on Radeons with table fog disabled? And why is it glitching out on Nvidia cards with no fog, in other games, the fog simply turns on and off with no obvious glitches.

Edit: I have also tested the retail version of Insane with a Kyro and the fog does work, it didn't in the demo. With that anomaly also debunked, I'd say this is a strong case that the retail version of the game does in fact use table fog.

asdf53 wrote on 2024-03-05, 13:30:

Why does the game have fog on Radeons with table fog disabled?

The game may have some kind of fallback for fog rendering if table fog is unavailable. The patch 2 changelog mentions both Radeons and fog in separate entries, but nothing that links them together. It's possible that the developers made some adjustments under the hood. Either that, or ATi changed some things on their later cards. Still weird how the fog doesn't work on a Radeon 9250 but does work on an X800 even if both cards are using the same driver.

BTW, I tested the Nvidia table fog toggle in Unreal Tournament GOTY with vertex fog turned on in the advanced options. Still with the TNT2 and 12.41 drivers. No change in fog rendering whether the toggle is on or off.

The map is DM-Fetid and the advanced game options look like this:

So it looks like the table fog toggle in the Nvidia driver panel has no effect on vertex fog.