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Pentium 60/66 are DOS Only?

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Reply 20 of 37, by dionb

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AlessandroB wrote on 2024-05-01, 08:13:
dionb wrote on 2024-05-01, 07:55:
AlessandroB wrote on 2024-05-01, 04:06:

the focus of discussion of this post is not on whether it is possible to install win95/win98 or xp on a Pentium60 (which I will certainly try to do out of curiosity) but whether in your opinion it is a machine that expresses its potential at 90% in the field of pure dos

No, as pure DOS runs fine on a much slower machine.

The point many people are making is that RAM, not CPU, is a big limiting factor for a lot of other stuff and that a typical P60 had very little RAM which was more limiting than CPU capabilities themselve (mine came with 8MB, which meant it struggled with MS Office 6 on Windows 3.1 - this I fixed by installing another 2x 4MB at great expense in january 1996)

ok bau for a gaming side, gaming tailored for win95 are too heavy for P60 i think..

in the same way a 486DX4 is considered a pure dos machine (P60 power is close to DX4 i have seen here)

Not quite the same. The - newer - 486DX4 is optimized for 16b code, where the Pentium is much better at 32b code and FPU (even if it in turn pales on both counts against the Pentium Pro). That means that P60 will shine at 32b code in Windows 3.11 environment, things that use the Win32S library, like Civilization 2 and Battle Isle 3. It will also be less crap at Quake, although still not enjoyably playable. Conversely, pure 16b DOS games only using ALU will run better on the DX4. It won't be a huge difference, but there are nuances.

Also, the motherboard chipsets make a lot of difference. A P60 with i430LX from 1993 only supports FP DRAM at low performance, has one (slow) PCI IDE channel built-in and generally was more of a technology enabler than anything else. A 486DX4 from 1995 could have an EDO-supporting Via chipset with two fast IDE channels and generally better performance.

Reply 21 of 37, by Anonymous Coward

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It's funny you compare the i430LX (one of the better Socket4 chipsets, at least in the last revisions) to one of the worst 486 chipsets. Would a 486 with a VIA chipset even benefit from EDO assuming it does more than simply "work" with it?

Personally I wouldn't waste my time with the integrated IDE on either of those platforms.

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Reply 22 of 37, by the3dfxdude

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AlessandroB wrote on 2024-05-01, 04:06:

the focus of discussion of this post is not on whether it is possible to install win95/win98 or xp on a Pentium60 (which I will certainly try to do out of curiosity) but whether in your opinion it is a machine that expresses its potential at 90% in the field of pure dos

Your topic title asks "if P60 is DOS only?" This processor, given plenty of memory (speaking of 16MB) is more capable than just DOS only. We ran 386, 486, and Pentium CPUs, with Win3.1 because that was already out when people were buying those types of machines. But we also ran Win95 when it came out on the same hardware. I don't think any of us really cared about running Win98 or later on something like that. We were well past P60s by when Win98 actually became popular enough. I think my mention of Win95 is because it was still contemporary with early Pentiums (really the expected machine), and also mentioning this is because Win95 is a capable DOS too. You don't have to run DOS 6 and Win95/DOS 7 on the same machine if you don't want to.

In the complete spectrum of DOS, a P60 can run like 99% of all software fine. It may be more like 90% of what you care to run. So as a DOS machine, if you are asking a more general question if it is a capable machine for DOS, the answer is yes most certainly. And stock it with enough memory to run your programs. Unless you want to be more specific on which software you want to run, then we can talk about this a bit more. So this is your choice. This class machine is not DOS only unless you want it to be.

Reply 23 of 37, by AlessandroB

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Thanks for all the answers, I can't explain myself well both because it is difficult with few characters and because English is not my main language. Having more or less one computer for each CPU class 286 386 486 P60 Pentium 75 Pentium2/3 Pentium4, I thought of giving a "default" operating system for each computer (then obviously you experiment and sooner or later I'll try XP on this P60) but I wanted to give it one by default and a few days ago I arrived at this P60 and I was in doubt

Reply 24 of 37, by Disruptor

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To the topic: P60 has the performance of an 486 DX4 100 in integer applications, but it is far ahead when it goes to usage of the floating point unit. It also will have a gap when (integer) applications are compiled in a way that will likely make more usage of the superscalar design of the Pentium architecture. However, it still makes no difference whether you use 16- or 32-bit code.
Please consider that the first Pentium processor was no performance wonder though.

But its successor, the Pentium Pro, will run slower on code that is pure 16 bit (DOS) or contains partially 16 bit code like Windows 9x. The Pentium Pro clearly was designed to run 32 bit code only. This issue had been fixed with the Pentium II.

Reply 25 of 37, by the3dfxdude

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The P60 when it arrived was expensive. This also ended up being the start of the transition period away from DOS. If you were buying one then, you could even have been in the market for Windows NT. But then even Windows 95 was a bit late for it, but was very ideal at the same time, as long as you did not have so early/crippled board. Windows 95 is a decent evolution from DOS if you cared more for the 32-bit graphical environment. But anyway definitely a capable DOS system, no doubt. And capable for other OS besides from Microsoft. There really were so many choices for it which is why the answer becomes difficult. It's really what you want to run.

When the P60 was made it was probably going to come with DOS 6 and Win3.1. It got quickly superseded by better chips. The OS upgrade path is Win95. I'm sure many machines stocked with Win95 were faster pentiums. But even if the early P60 came out before Win95, I consider it Win95 territory. All pentiums really are. So I think the answer is not easy as that was a major transition time.

Reply 26 of 37, by AlessandroB

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I think a "reasoned" answer doesn't exist. If you look at the correct period (my Pentium60 is from 1993) it is strictly DOS+win3.11 and also by a fair margin on win95. Win95 would probably also work well as you said, but having already another computer ranging from P75 to P200 (with the possibility of also installing the overvoltaged P233MMX) I think I'll keep it as the default DOS machine, not because there is a real reason ( also expressed by your considerations) but perhaps because it is more intriguing.

Reply 27 of 37, by douglar

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Some day I'm going to put OS/2 2.1 on the P60 system that I have. Why? I've always consider the socket 4 platform to be kind of slow, full of quirks, and had a limited lifespan, so pairing it with a slow, short lived OS with lots of quirks seems appropriate, no?

Reply 28 of 37, by VivienM

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douglar wrote on 2024-05-01, 20:26:

Some day I'm going to put OS/2 2.1 on the P60 system that I have. Why? I've always consider the socket 4 platform to be kind of slow, full of quirks, and had a limited lifespan, so pairing it with a slow, short lived OS with lots of quirks seems appropriate, no?

Why not OS/2 Warp 3? That seems like the version of OS/2 that had the best shot of succeeding... and then within 6-9 months, it fizzled out and Win95 was the thing.

Reply 29 of 37, by VivienM

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dionb wrote on 2024-05-01, 07:55:

The point many people are making is that RAM, not CPU, is a big limiting factor for a lot of other stuff and that a typical P60 had very little RAM which was more limiting than CPU capabilities themselve (mine came with 8MB, which meant it struggled with MS Office 6 on Windows 3.1 - this I fixed by installing another 2x 4MB at great expense in january 1996)

8MB was great for Office 4.2 (the last 16-bit Office) on Win3.1. Or at least... that's how it felt to me after trying it on a three-month-old 486 with 4 megs of RAM that got upgraded at great expense in April 1995.

It's funny how the world was - many large OEM computers came with MS Works, not elcheapo editions of Office like today, and it wasn't really because of money (I'm sure Microsoft could have cooked up a cheap Office for Home SKU if they wanted to), but rather because of hardware limitations. Lots of basically brand new machines could barely run MS Office... not to mention that Office 4.2 took a big bite out of a 420 meg hard drive, whereas MS Works performed great in 4 megs of RAM.

Reply 30 of 37, by VivienM

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AlessandroB wrote on 2024-05-01, 08:13:

ok bau for a gaming side, gaming tailored for win95 are too heavy for P60 i think..

Depends on your definition of 'tailored for Win95' I guess. I was playing CivII on a 50MHz 486 and it seemed fine... back in the day. Would I go and build/buy a retro 486 system tomorrow to play CivII? Definitely... not.

Keep in mind - your typical computer in 1996 or 1997 was going to be a 486DX2/66 with 8 megs of RAM. Sure, some people had newer hardware, some people had older hardware, but if you shipped a game in 1996 that couldn't run on a 486, that would have been a huge problem for your sales prospects. I don't think most software vendors wanted to declare a 486 obsolete until at least 1997, if not a teeny bit later... especially for gaming when the PC gaming base was much, much younger than today. Kids whose parents spent $2500-3000 on a 486DX2/66 "multimedia PC" in 1994 are not going to throw that machine out in 1996 to buy a Pentium...

Reply 31 of 37, by BitWrangler

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If you bought a P60 to game on in 1993, and your buddy bought a DX2-66 at the same time, he would have been laughing at you for 2 years right up until Descent came out. The only people who could really make use of the Pentium architecture for those couple of years, were power users with CAD and other math heavy workload demands.

DOS and Win 3.1 were the mainstream OS a pentium owner was forced to use for the lack of anything better (while being widely available and compatible, network effect thing) They were not ideal for the pentium, or particularly performant on the pentium, fast 486es looked just as good.... and then, the first signs in 95, the deluge in late 96, fully 32 bit code, pentium optimised code, and "consumer" applications of FPU. A P60 could actually separate itself from fastest 486es on this stuff. However, by 1996 it was by far the slowest Pentium, and it was replaced as the entry level pentium by Pentium 75. 75 and 66 could kind of "trade blows" depending on whether raw, fits in cache, code loop performance, or bus speed and i/o defined the application performance overall. It was kind of the DX50 DX2-66 thing again.

So getting a P60 or P66 in 1993 was a bit like getting an Athlon 64 3000 in 2003, it was a decent performer, but it didn't get to really spread it's wings until a few years later when software caught up... and by that time, was kind of bottom of the barrel for machines with that architecture. I think the DeskPro 386 is in the same boat really too, first of the 386 machines, kinda pointless for a few years but for niche uses.

My P60 runs Windows 95 very smoothly, it is far less herky, jerky, thrashy than on some 486 builds. Feels like Win95 was made for it. Definitely the best OS for a P60/66 IMO. This smoothness, and good behaviour with Office 97, the FPU to be fast enough decoding LempelZiv decompression of Gif heavy webpages, made it a viable office machine until just into the first years of this century.

There was a bit of a subtle break too in the late 90s, where, "pentium required" games, which previously really required clockspeed, and ran proportionately fast on a 486, then began to use pentium features, and would be a literal "slideshow" on fast 486, but would run slowly but surely on P60. You didn't get high FPS, but you got FPS not SPF. I think I was able to run the carmageddon demo on mine for instance.

So a bit of a rollercoaster over the years for a P60 owner, slow slow, faster faster, slow slow in the games dept, then the same delayed a couple of years for office compared to a 486 baseline.... Though really that was true for all Pentium arch that came in a bit later, but being higher clockspeeds it was never a question of whether it was faster than 486, but the how much faster could vary.

But all that said, it's still a problem where to put it in a spectrum of retro systems, it was slow until it was fast, and when it was fast it wasn't that fast, like a P90 was for it's year. Even a POD 83 is a little better. Then if you're taking it to "optimum" 95 early pentium friendly gaming, you kinda want a 1995 graphics card, HDD and CDROM in it. Not just a slightly accelerated win3/cad friendly card from 1993, single speed CD and small and slow HDD. So as far as the greater part of "common" experience goes, it fits ideally in no pigeonhole, and weren't bought in great numbers for the home. Probably though the greatest number of ppl who had them in the home, had them later, they were clearing out at bargain prices refurb, off lease, stale stock, in 1995+. I wouldn't actually take any great pains to acquire one, I have one kind of more by accident.

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Reply 32 of 37, by Jo22

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-05-02, 14:49:

If you bought a P60 to game on in 1993, and your buddy bought a DX2-66 at the same time, he would have been laughing at you for 2 years right up until Descent came out. The only people who could really make use of the Pentium architecture for those couple of years, were power users with CAD and other math heavy workload demands.

Reminds me of my dad. He knew a few architects back then. They had demand for powerful 386/486 PCs.
He installed 16 MB of RAM in all of their PCs, to ensure workflow was never being hindered.
Because, that was the full memory expansion, pretty much.
Such customers didn't care if something did cost 1000 or 2000 more, according to him. These were peanuts to them. A perfectly working PC was much more important.
But that's the main difference between workplace PCs and home computers, I suppose.

Edit: About memory expansion.. Printing companies had a need for lots of RAM, too.
My father told me that he too had 16 MB installed in the local office PCs, to ensure scrolling was smooth.

I'm sorry, that's all I know so far. Back then, software like Ventura Publisher was being in use, still, I think.
Such software had supported EMS, so even up to 32 MB of RAM were technically possible (LIM 4 specification).

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Reply 33 of 37, by Standard Def Steve

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-05-02, 14:49:

If you bought a P60 to game on in 1993, and your buddy bought a DX2-66 at the same time, he would have been laughing at you for 2 years right up until Descent came out. The only people who could really make use of the Pentium architecture for those couple of years, were power users with CAD and other math heavy workload demands.

And power users with CAD and other math heavy aspirations were probably using Alpha or PowerPC machines, because while Pentium float point was good by x86 standards, x86 FP was always in (a sometimes distant) second place until Athlon showed up.

Though, I suppose the potent performance and software compatibility of dual PII WInNT workstations had probably converted most RISC diehards even before Athlon arrived to take the single-CPU floating point crown. 😀

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Reply 34 of 37, by VivienM

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-02, 15:18:
Reminds me of my dad. He knew a few architects back then. They had demand for powerful 386/486 PCs. He installed 16 MB of RAM in […]
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Reminds me of my dad. He knew a few architects back then. They had demand for powerful 386/486 PCs.
He installed 16 MB of RAM in all of their PCs, to ensure workflow was never being hindered.
Because, that was the full memory expansion, pretty much.
Such customers didn't care if something did cost 1000 or 2000 more, according to him. These were peanuts to them. A perfectly working PC was much more important.
But that's the main difference between workplace PCs and home computers, I suppose.

But that's the same thing as US$10,000 Macs in the late Gassee era. Fundamentally, for business, people, not computers, cost money.

Some tasks, e.g. running Photoshop filters, took hours of machine time on late 80s/early 90s machines. If you're paying a graphic designer to sit idle in front of a machine for 4 hours while the machine crunches a task, a $10K computer that lowers that time to 2 hours or a funky $7K accelerator board that gets it down to 1.5 hours gives you great return on your money. Effectively, for a $7-10K outlay that's good for, say, two years, you've potentially doubled a person (whom you are paying a lot more than $5K/year)'s productivity.

On the Mac side of things, at least, things were just wild in the early 1990s with funky accelerators, etc at steep price tags. (Craziest example is probably the Radius Rocket series...) And I presume they sold well enough to keep these vendors in business until the mid-90s.

Eventually, though, you hit diminishing returns. If you're shrinking tasks from 4 hours to 2 hours, a $10K computer every 2 years is a great investment. If you're going from 30 seconds to 15 seconds... well, the business case is much, much less strong.

And that's why a lot fewer specialized performance-enhancing hardware exists today compared to 35 years ago. Some, of course, continues to exist for the tasks that today take hours or days or longer.

For a home machine, well, budget is a lot more important. If you don't have $4000 to spend on a computer, you don't have $4000, regardless of how much better the $4000 computer is compared to the $2000 one.

Reply 35 of 37, by jmarsh

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-05-02, 14:49:

If you bought a P60 to game on in 1993, and your buddy bought a DX2-66 at the same time, he would have been laughing at you for 2 years right up until Descent came out.

Descent didn't use floating point math. It was all integer / fixed point and was "playable" on a 386 (provided you could put up with having the viewport set at its minimum size).

Reply 36 of 37, by Jo22

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VivienM wrote on 2024-05-02, 23:00:
But that's the same thing as US$10,000 Macs in the late Gassee era. Fundamentally, for business, people, not computers, cost mon […]
Show full quote
Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-02, 15:18:
Reminds me of my dad. He knew a few architects back then. They had demand for powerful 386/486 PCs. He installed 16 MB of RAM in […]
Show full quote

Reminds me of my dad. He knew a few architects back then. They had demand for powerful 386/486 PCs.
He installed 16 MB of RAM in all of their PCs, to ensure workflow was never being hindered.
Because, that was the full memory expansion, pretty much.
Such customers didn't care if something did cost 1000 or 2000 more, according to him. These were peanuts to them. A perfectly working PC was much more important.
But that's the main difference between workplace PCs and home computers, I suppose.

But that's the same thing as US$10,000 Macs in the late Gassee era. Fundamentally, for business, people, not computers, cost money.

Some tasks, e.g. running Photoshop filters, took hours of machine time on late 80s/early 90s machines. If you're paying a graphic designer to sit idle in front of a machine for 4 hours while the machine crunches a task, a $10K computer that lowers that time to 2 hours or a funky $7K accelerator board that gets it down to 1.5 hours gives you great return on your money. Effectively, for a $7-10K outlay that's good for, say, two years, you've potentially doubled a person (whom you are paying a lot more than $5K/year)'s productivity.

On the Mac side of things, at least, things were just wild in the early 1990s with funky accelerators, etc at steep price tags. (Craziest example is probably the Radius Rocket series...) And I presume they sold well enough to keep these vendors in business until the mid-90s.

Eventually, though, you hit diminishing returns. If you're shrinking tasks from 4 hours to 2 hours, a $10K computer every 2 years is a great investment. If you're going from 30 seconds to 15 seconds... well, the business case is much, much less strong.

And that's why a lot fewer specialized performance-enhancing hardware exists today compared to 35 years ago. Some, of course, continues to exist for the tasks that today take hours or days or longer.

For a home machine, well, budget is a lot more important. If you don't have $4000 to spend on a computer, you don't have $4000, regardless of how much better the $4000 computer is compared to the $2000 one.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can follow. It could very well be that way, though, not sure.
My father and me didn't learn to think this way, I assume.

He simply had gotten business orders. The architects wanted to have functioning PCs, have functioning tools.

And my father had made an proposal that would ensure that this was going to work. Then they've accepted (or he had to come up with another one).
There was no "if..then" thinking involved, as far as I know.

No thinking about profits or how things relate to each other, financially.
It was pretty straightforward approach, rather.

It simply was about getting the PC(s) to work and make sure they wouldn't make trouble any time soon.

Because, at the time, they mainly wanted to get rid of their old mechanical tools and paper plans and whatnot and instead start to work comfortably on a PC workplace.
This made editing drawings and sharing plans (via network, modem etc) much much easier than before.

The rest, such as financial planning, was up to the architect or the architect's bureau, not my father.

That being said, this was here in Europe in the early 90s. People didn't talk so much about money openly.
Mentality was different, too, maybe. People were more down to earth, I guess.

And I was very young at this time. The workplace of architects was no "playground" so I couldn't accompany my father, even if I wanted to.

Edit: It also was a matter of trust, at some point, I suppose.
In such fields, you can't let a random person/company have access to the offices.
I mean, you technically can, but.. There are confidential plans about construction projects and such.

So it's no like in the states, were the cheapest company "wins" a contract through sheer competition or something.
Such things were very individual, rather, to my understanding. At least were my father was working back then.

Speaking of, my father was lucky that he was already being known by some business partners at the time,
which had recommended him further to certain architects.

To be fair, he did spend a lot of work there. Sometimes had to be available during night times, to fix things.

He remembers that especially one local printing company often had trouble with the older computers at the time (not originally installed by my dad, btw).
The issue had to do with foils, he said, I vaguely remember. These foils were like masters for the printer machines.

I think he already had a car phone by this time. And an early GSM cell phone.
Either a Motorola MicroTAC or an Hagenuk phone (MT-2000, the old model with the triangle antenna and Tetris).
Or did he get this one later? Hm. He also had an MT-900, which is still in the house.

Edit: Typos fixed.
Edit: Edited, formatting fixed.

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Reply 37 of 37, by BitWrangler

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jmarsh wrote on 2024-05-02, 23:18:
BitWrangler wrote on 2024-05-02, 14:49:

If you bought a P60 to game on in 1993, and your buddy bought a DX2-66 at the same time, he would have been laughing at you for 2 years right up until Descent came out.

Descent didn't use floating point math. It was all integer / fixed point and was "playable" on a 386 (provided you could put up with having the viewport set at its minimum size).

Yeah it was something the dual integer pipelines could really get their teeth into though.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.