Shponglefan wrote on 2024-05-22, 20:13:

Took delivery of this AGP Sapphire Radeon 3850 HD this week. Really excited for this card, since it's the fastest 8x AGP card I know of.

Planning to use this in my next iteration of an "all-in-one" Pentium 4 retro build. My previous build tops out at early 2000s XP. With this card, I'm hoping to include Vista and possibly Windows 7, and extend the useful gaming range into the late 2000s.

Saphhire Radeon HD 3850.jpg

The 1Gb 4670 and the 3850 512Mb pretty much go toe to toe is a lot of real benchmarks, I put them both at the top since neither has a real edge over the other, both are great cards that get CPU bound since there is no CPU that can fully use either card over the AGP bus.

I do like the 4670 a bit more mostly due to the improvements in the core that lead to it running a bit cooler and quieter, the extra Vram is also nice if I want to push higher resolution and details a bit.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-05-22, 20:09:

Living in Canada, shipping costs are not universal across the country.

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-22, 21:24:

shipping prices in the US are nowhere near universal

I didn't know that, I thought shipping rates apply to the entire country. I often see "free shipping to lower 48" so I figured that shipping costs on smaller items are universal. I was wrong.
But it doesn't mean that prices are insanely different in the general area, does it?

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-22, 21:24:

Gold scrappers and "recycling" companies are the main things hurting the availability of rare old parts here.

People at recycling stations dig out anything retro here and it goes straight to auction sites. 🤣 There is a literal war between these guys. I'm not complaining though because it means more options for us. These guys never test anything so prices stay low even though it's a big lottery.

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-22, 21:24:

Eh, if you just check once a month, then sure... you're leaving it entirely to chance.

Agreed, it's a full time job to keep track of everything, something most people with a family don't have. I once set up alerts on Ebay and my favorite auction site and it spammed my inbox so much I had to turn it off. Local auction sites are excellent though (we have 3) for finding treasures without paying the Ebay tax.
That was the point of my original post, people need to think outside the box and look around to find those deals, especially people who live in less wealthy countries.

Mandrew wrote on 2024-05-23, 05:08:

I didn't know that, I thought shipping rates apply to the entire country. I often see "free shipping to lower 48" so I figured that shipping costs on smaller items are universal. I was wrong.
But it doesn't mean that prices are insanely different in the general area, does it?

Sorry, not sure exactly what you mean by the general area. Most commerce here isn't separated by any kind of state or other borders these days, so things like that are highly variable depending on distance or other factors. A small item might be $7 to ship to someone fairly close or $20+ to ship across the country (could be 2000 miles or more), but it goes up significantly with weight and size. It also depends on the shipping carrier and shipping option being used.

Regarding the "free shipping to lower 48" thing, that is mainly because the price to ship goes up significantly when you have to ship to Hawaii or Alaska, and there are often limitations on what can be shipped via air so they can't always apply the same shipping options or make the same guarantees as to how long it will take. To put it in perspective, Maine is ~2400 miles from California, but ~5000 miles from Hawaii, so it definitely costs more to ship there.

Mandrew wrote on 2024-05-23, 05:08:

Agreed, it's a full time job to keep track of everything, something most people with a family don't have. I once set up alerts on Ebay and my favorite auction site and it spammed my inbox so much I had to turn it off. Local auction sites are excellent though (we have 3) for finding treasures without paying the Ebay tax.
That was the point of my original post, people need to think outside the box and look around to find those deals, especially people who live in less wealthy countries.

Sadly, there are very few options left in the US that are actually popular enough to be worth looking at regularly for retro parts. I think there are far more options for people who live near urban areas, but sites\apps like OfferUp have near-zero listings of any kind within 40 miles of me because there is just no one using things like that around here.

Craigslist was big years ago so in the rural areas where trends lag behind it is still used from time to time, but it has been years since I have found any computer stuff on there. There used to be an online classified site based specifically in my state, but it closed up a while ago.

That pretty much leaves Facebook Marketplace for local (in person) purchases, and it is so indescribably HORRIBLE trying to find anything on there that it can be challenging to even locate one item in the search results that actually fits ANY of my search criteria, let alone all of them. It is also equally bad, possibly worse, for searching the entire country to find things that could be shipped.

In general, ebay's search engine is very good compared to the algorithm based advertising garbage that passes as a search engine on most sites (Amazon, Facebook, etc.). Once in a while some weird stuff happens and an item shows up that was recently sold (clicking the listing confirms it is unavailable), or an item that was just listed may not appear right away for everyone, but overall if I type something into the search box (especially using quotes) I will find what I'm looking for if it's available, or I will find nothing if it isn't. If ebay ever changes to the Facebook\Amazon way of doing things, I'll probably be done both buying and selling there.

Anyway, it is always interesting to discuss just how different things are in different parts of the world and even different parts of the same country with regard to finding old computer stuff. I get more than a little jealous when I hear of anyone who is able to drive or walk a short distance to a place that constantly gets old electronics\computers and they are allowed to pick through and buy things. Absolutely nothing like this exists within 4-5 hours drive of where I live, and the closest ones are probably not going to let anything go without looking it up on ebay first and asking way more than I'd want to pay after driving all that way.

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:36:

Ah, you got that Cancun FX! Nice! […]
Show full quote

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:14:

What could these be for? PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg […]
Show full quote

What could these be for?
PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg

Bought this for a very reasonable / great price.
PXL_20240523_031113502~2.jpg

Ah, you got that Cancun FX! Nice!

I had my eye on it, but things have been a little tight lately so I wasn't up to paying the asking price and that marketplace doesn't allow offers much below the listed price. I am curious what you paid for it in the end. 😀

... and AGP risers have me curious. 😁

The Cancun FX was $126 + shipping. + lame fees so almost $160 total.

I can only imagine what it would have gone for if it was on eBay, especially a factory sealed one like this.

I've got to figure out a case for the system that will use an AGP riser. That will probably happen after work tomorrow and require some modding.

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 06:52:

The Cancun FX was $126 + shipping. + lame fees so almost $160 total. […]
Show full quote

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:36:

Ah, you got that Cancun FX! Nice! […]
Show full quote

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:14:

What could these be for? PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg […]
Show full quote

What could these be for?
PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg

Bought this for a very reasonable / great price.
PXL_20240523_031113502~2.jpg

Ah, you got that Cancun FX! Nice!

I had my eye on it, but things have been a little tight lately so I wasn't up to paying the asking price and that marketplace doesn't allow offers much below the listed price. I am curious what you paid for it in the end. 😀

... and AGP risers have me curious. 😁

The Cancun FX was $126 + shipping. + lame fees so almost $160 total.

I can only imagine what it would have gone for if it was on eBay, especially a factory sealed one like this.

I've got to figure out a case for the system that will use an AGP riser. That will probably happen after work tomorrow and require some modding.

Certainly not a bad price all things considered... in that condition it would definitely go for a lot more on ebay. Still, people have been funny lately. Prices are all over the place. A complete in-box Sound Blaster Pro MCA just sold for ~$760, which sounds like a lot, but for how rare they are I'd have honestly expected it to go higher. I have also seen other things that are ridiculously rare just sitting there with moderate to high prices and no one taking them for weeks or months. It seems like interest in a lot of more obscure things is waning a bit, and only the most "popular" retro items are really getting much attention now, and the prices of those is going through the roof (mainly high end 3dfx cards).

I had actually been watching that CancunFX for several weeks and just couldn't commit to spending that much myself. I was real close to sending an offer a few times, but I haven't had quite enough cash coming in to make it feel like a good idea.. and the fees have really spoiled a lot of deals there lately.

Also, if I ever get a pile of money to spend I would like to place a big order with Serdaco, which would mostly fill my midi daughterboard "needs". 😁

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:14:

What could these be for? PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg […]
Show full quote

What could these be for?
PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg

Bought this for a very reasonable / great price.
PXL_20240523_031113502~2.jpg

Do you plan to open the CancunFX box? I own a YucatanFX so I was kind of curious about what the original box contains 😁

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:44:

The 1Gb 4670 and the 3850 512Mb pretty much go toe to toe is a lot of real benchmarks, I put them both at the top since neither has a real edge over the other, both are great cards that get CPU bound since there is no CPU that can fully use either card over the AGP bus.

What if they were installed on an ASRock 775i65G R3.0 and paired with a QX6800 (the fastest CPU available on a MB with AGP I could think of)? Would the bottleneck on the CPU or the AGP interface?

I rummaged through some of our old stuff and hey, look what I've found 😀)

Mandrew wrote on 2024-05-23, 05:08:

I once set up alerts on Ebay and my favorite auction site and it spammed my inbox so much I had to turn it off. Local auction sites are excellent though (we have 3) for finding treasures without paying the Ebay tax.

Heh yeah, got a local classified site, that constantly wants to tell me "Lots of new listings" (unspecific to my interests) and "You could sell your stuff" and I'm like, no shit, I GET THE CONCEPT... enough already with basically the same emails you've sent me 1000 times since I registered.

Got some local online house/general/returns/"antique" auctions here, and they are a bit of a pain in the arse to keep tabs on. First off, irregular schedules, they go when they've got enough stuff. Secondly, very lackadaisical listing practices, even if you want a table, will it actually say table on the listing text so you can find the damn thing? eh, it's a 30:70 shot... so yeah exact descriptions of anything computer related going through are too much to hope for, even keywords like computer aren't much use, might just be electronics or electrical, and damned if they don't also list DVD movies and CDs in electronics. So yeah, once in a while, you actually find a live auction, and accidentally catch something by eyeball in the thumbnails, so not super reliable source of .... anything really.

dormcat wrote on 2024-05-23, 12:37:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:44:

The 1Gb 4670 and the 3850 512Mb pretty much go toe to toe is a lot of real benchmarks, I put them both at the top since neither has a real edge over the other, both are great cards that get CPU bound since there is no CPU that can fully use either card over the AGP bus.

What if they were installed on an ASRock 775i65G R3.0 and paired with a QX6800 (the fastest CPU available on a MB with AGP I could think of)? Would the bottleneck on the CPU or the AGP interface?

For these cards likely the CPU, even with the CPU overclocked these two GPUs would still be waiting on the CPU to feed them data quickly enough, its pretty hard to bottleneck the AGP 8X bus with any CPU built for it. AGP 8x has the same bandwidth as PCIe 8x or roughly 2.1GB a second .. not even the mighty QX6800 can shovel data fast enough to bottleneck that.

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-23, 07:49:

Do you plan to open the CancunFX box? I own a YucatanFX so I was kind of curious about what the original box contains 😁

here you go 😁

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 15:11:

dormcat wrote on 2024-05-23, 12:37:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:44:

The 1Gb 4670 and the 3850 512Mb pretty much go toe to toe is a lot of real benchmarks, I put them both at the top since neither has a real edge over the other, both are great cards that get CPU bound since there is no CPU that can fully use either card over the AGP bus.

What if they were installed on an ASRock 775i65G R3.0 and paired with a QX6800 (the fastest CPU available on a MB with AGP I could think of)? Would the bottleneck on the CPU or the AGP interface?

For these cards likely the CPU, even with the CPU overclocked these two GPUs would still be waiting on the CPU to feed them data quickly enough, its pretty hard to bottleneck the AGP 8X bus with any CPU built for it. AGP 8x has the same bandwidth as PCIe 8x or roughly 2.1GB a second .. not even the mighty QX6800 can shovel data fast enough to bottleneck that.

I don't think it's accurate to make sweeping generalizations about bottlenecks. Performance is always dependent on the software and settings first, then the hardware. If you're trying to play a graphically intensive game at a high resolution or with anti-aliasing on an HD 3850 + QX6800, the CPU will not be the bottleneck. If you're trying to play Quake II at 1024x768, then sure, the CPU will probably be the limit. Or, if you're trying to run something that is notorious for making poor use of CPU resources, then yes, the CPU will be the bottleneck in certain situations (an Elder Scrolls game in a city for example). In general though, the HD3850 is not an overly powerful card in relation to a fast Core2 Duo or Quad. It may be newer, but depending on the game it tends to swing about 15-20% faster or slower than an 8800GT, and usually the 8800GTX outpaces it by a pretty significant margin. Those were the high end cards contemporary to the QX6800.

I would love to see some benchmarks that cover this specific setup though! I have an HD3850 and a couple of HD4650 AGP cards, but I don't have a Socket 775 AGP board myself. It would also be interesting to see different CPUs dropped in to see scaling in different situations, as well as some PCI-E GPUs to compare them.

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-23, 15:46:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 15:11:

dormcat wrote on 2024-05-23, 12:37:

What if they were installed on an ASRock 775i65G R3.0 and paired with a QX6800 (the fastest CPU available on a MB with AGP I could think of)? Would the bottleneck on the CPU or the AGP interface?

For these cards likely the CPU, even with the CPU overclocked these two GPUs would still be waiting on the CPU to feed them data quickly enough, its pretty hard to bottleneck the AGP 8X bus with any CPU built for it. AGP 8x has the same bandwidth as PCIe 8x or roughly 2.1GB a second .. not even the mighty QX6800 can shovel data fast enough to bottleneck that.

I don't think it's accurate to make sweeping generalizations about bottlenecks. Performance is always dependent on the software and settings first, then the hardware. If you're trying to play a graphically intensive game at a high resolution or with anti-aliasing on an HD 3850 + QX6800, the CPU will not be the bottleneck. If you're trying to play Quake II at 1024x768, then sure, the CPU will probably be the limit. Or, if you're trying to run something that is notorious for making poor use of CPU resources (any Elder Scrolls game), then yes, the CPU will be the bottleneck. In general though, the HD3850 is not an overly powerful card in relation to a good Core2 Duo or Quad. It may be newer, but depending on the game it tends to swing about 15-20% faster or slower than an 8800GT, and usually the 8800GTX outpaces it by a pretty significant margin. Those were the high end cards contemporary to the QX6800.

I would love to see some benchmarks that cover this specific setup though! I have an HD3850 and a couple of HD4650 AGP cards, but I don't have a Socket 775 AGP board myself. It would also be interesting to see different CPUs dropped in to see scaling in different situations, as well as some PCI-E GPUs to compare them.

I'm not wrong here the AGP 8X bus will never be a bottleneck, its very unlikely that any CPU GPU combination using that bus will ever be able to fill the 2.1GB a second bandwidth available to it for it to become the bottle neck. Since I was asked a question about the AGP 8x bus being the bottleneck my answer was focused on that, the reality is that there isn't a CPU on that bus that could saturate it. Its one of the biggest reasons these cards really seem rather silly for AGP cards, any game that could take full advantage of them would require a better CPU to do so. Moving to PCIe and a E8600 for instance, but that's outside of the question here as they are AGP cards.

Benchmarks for both these cards that I have seen pretty much confirm this, feel free to go look them up yourself they are an interesting read.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-05-23, 00:45:

Hanamichi wrote on 2024-05-22, 23:54:

I think the wide coverage system with the HD3850 is cool. However keeping reasonably potent W98 gpu alongside is tricky needing something like a PCI R9100 as a secondary vga.

I do have a few PCI cards (including Voodoo3 and FX5500) as a secondary GPU for Win9x and DOS support. Also thinking of tossing in a Voodoo2 and PowerVR for good measure. 😁

They'll be lots of testing to do to see how feasible this system is.

Yeah sounds good, I actually really like a PCI S3 Savage 4 for DOS and Unreal compatibility but not a lot of oomph outside those uses

I actually just got a SAGP 865 478 board finally to complete my P4 ISA build. Getting worried the interest in P4s is rising and the Korean seller was running low on stock 😂 (Find the eBay TaoBao sellers very unrealiable for SBC stuff)

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 06:52:

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:36:

Ah, you got that Cancun FX! Nice! […]
Show full quote

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:14:

What could these be for? PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg […]
Show full quote

What could these be for?
PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg

Bought this for a very reasonable / great price.
PXL_20240523_031113502~2.jpg

Ah, you got that Cancun FX! Nice!

I had my eye on it, but things have been a little tight lately so I wasn't up to paying the asking price and that marketplace doesn't allow offers much below the listed price. I am curious what you paid for it in the end. 😀

... and AGP risers have me curious. 😁

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:14:

What could these be for?
PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg

i7 -> PCIe -> Albatron Atop -> AGP Riser -> FX5900 Ultra

I have the same build but got sidetracked 🤣
I also got those risers from the HK moddiy shop

Two issues to overcome - the strap will be PCX FX5900 128 and some work to get a good compatible driver set for early PCX cards

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:44:

The 1Gb 4670 and the 3850 512Mb pretty much go toe to toe is a lot of real benchmarks, I put them both at the top since neither has a real edge over the other, both are great cards that get CPU bound since there is no CPU that can fully use either card over the AGP bus.

I do like the 4670 a bit more mostly due to the improvements in the core that lead to it running a bit cooler and quieter, the extra Vram is also nice if I want to push higher resolution and details a bit.

Good to know that about the 4670. When I was originally looking up benchmarks, the 3850 appeared slightly in the lead so I opted to get one when it was available.

If I do get ahold of a 4670, I'll have to see how they compare. Quieter and cooler would be a nice benefit.

Hanamichi wrote on 2024-05-23, 16:21:

Yeah sounds good, I actually really like a PCI S3 Savage 4 for DOS and Unreal compatibility but not a lot of oomph outside those uses

Got one of those too, but still haven't found a build for it yet. As you say, it's got a narrow range of practical use.

I actually just got a SAGP 865 478 board finally to complete my P4 ISA build. Getting worried the interest in P4s is rising and the Korean seller was running low on stock 😂 (Find the eBay TaoBao sellers very unrealiable for SBC stuff)

Sounds interesting! Will you be posting a thread on it?

Always love to see more P4 / ISA based builds.

Hanamichi wrote on 2024-05-23, 16:21:

Yeah sounds good, I actually really like a PCI S3 Savage 4 for DOS and Unreal compatibility but not a lot of oomph outside those […]
Show full quote

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-05-23, 00:45:

Hanamichi wrote on 2024-05-22, 23:54:

I think the wide coverage system with the HD3850 is cool. However keeping reasonably potent W98 gpu alongside is tricky needing something like a PCI R9100 as a secondary vga.

I do have a few PCI cards (including Voodoo3 and FX5500) as a secondary GPU for Win9x and DOS support. Also thinking of tossing in a Voodoo2 and PowerVR for good measure. 😁

They'll be lots of testing to do to see how feasible this system is.

Yeah sounds good, I actually really like a PCI S3 Savage 4 for DOS and Unreal compatibility but not a lot of oomph outside those uses

I actually just got a SAGP 865 478 board finally to complete my P4 ISA build. Getting worried the interest in P4s is rising and the Korean seller was running low on stock 😂 (Find the eBay TaoBao sellers very unrealiable for SBC stuff)

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 06:52:

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:36:

Ah, you got that Cancun FX! Nice!

I had my eye on it, but things have been a little tight lately so I wasn't up to paying the asking price and that marketplace doesn't allow offers much below the listed price. I am curious what you paid for it in the end. 😀

... and AGP risers have me curious. 😁

cyclone3d wrote on 2024-05-23, 03:14:

What could these be for?
PXL_20240523_030828660~2.jpg

i7 -> PCIe -> Albatron Atop -> AGP Riser -> FX5900 Ultra

I have the same build but got sidetracked 🤣
I also got those risers from the HK moddiy shop

Two issues to overcome - the strap will be PCX FX5900 128 and some work to get a good compatible driver set for early PCX cards

Nah, not using an Albatron Atop though it would be cool to get one of those boards.

I have a PCX 5900 I can use if I want to make a more modern and stupid fast CPU GeForce FX build which will probably happen.

keropi wrote on 2024-05-23, 15:37:

here you go :D […]
Show full quote

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-23, 07:49:

Do you plan to open the CancunFX box? I own a YucatanFX so I was kind of curious about what the original box contains 😁

here you go 😁

Thank you! Are these scanned/imaged by chance?

ildonaldo wrote on 2024-05-23, 14:04:

I rummaged through some of our old stuff and hey, look what I've found 😀)

IMG_20240523_155750 (Benutzerdefiniert).jpg

Cute. But now I have the music for that Japanese 'Mouse PC' advert in my head.

YouTube link if you want to punish yourself.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 16:04:

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-05-23, 15:46:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-23, 15:11:

For these cards likely the CPU, even with the CPU overclocked these two GPUs would still be waiting on the CPU to feed them data quickly enough, its pretty hard to bottleneck the AGP 8X bus with any CPU built for it. AGP 8x has the same bandwidth as PCIe 8x or roughly 2.1GB a second .. not even the mighty QX6800 can shovel data fast enough to bottleneck that.

I don't think it's accurate to make sweeping generalizations about bottlenecks. Performance is always dependent on the software and settings first, then the hardware. If you're trying to play a graphically intensive game at a high resolution or with anti-aliasing on an HD 3850 + QX6800, the CPU will not be the bottleneck. If you're trying to play Quake II at 1024x768, then sure, the CPU will probably be the limit. Or, if you're trying to run something that is notorious for making poor use of CPU resources (any Elder Scrolls game), then yes, the CPU will be the bottleneck. In general though, the HD3850 is not an overly powerful card in relation to a good Core2 Duo or Quad. It may be newer, but depending on the game it tends to swing about 15-20% faster or slower than an 8800GT, and usually the 8800GTX outpaces it by a pretty significant margin. Those were the high end cards contemporary to the QX6800.

I would love to see some benchmarks that cover this specific setup though! I have an HD3850 and a couple of HD4650 AGP cards, but I don't have a Socket 775 AGP board myself. It would also be interesting to see different CPUs dropped in to see scaling in different situations, as well as some PCI-E GPUs to compare them.

I'm not wrong here the AGP 8X bus will never be a bottleneck, its very unlikely that any CPU GPU combination using that bus will ever be able to fill the 2.1GB a second bandwidth available to it for it to become the bottle neck. Since I was asked a question about the AGP 8x bus being the bottleneck my answer was focused on that, the reality is that there isn't a CPU on that bus that could saturate it. Its one of the biggest reasons these cards really seem rather silly for AGP cards, any game that could take full advantage of them would require a better CPU to do so. Moving to PCIe and a E8600 for instance, but that's outside of the question here as they are AGP cards.

Benchmarks for both these cards that I have seen pretty much confirm this, feel free to go look them up yourself they are an interesting read.

Okay, I think there must have been a misunderstanding. I wasn't talking about the AGP bus bottlenecks in my reply because I was referring to this statement:

For these cards likely the CPU, even with the CPU overclocked these two GPUs would still be waiting on the CPU to feed them data quickly enough

... in saying this, it sounds like you're saying that even an overclocked QX6800 would be the bottleneck on these GPU (period). But you were actually just saying that the GPU and CPU would be free to "talk" as quickly as they wanted because the AGP 8x bus isn't a bottleneck. That is a perfectly reasonable assessment, I just didn't get that out of that particular statement when I read it, which is why I didn't comment on AGP bottlenecks at all.

I think we're on the same page now. 😁