VOGONS


First post, by SGM

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I built a couple of simple SSD style hard drives from SD cards (with IDE adapters), but I read that CF cards are more reliable for that.
Do you have any suggestions, any experience with CF cards? Obviously it doesn't need to be crazy fast for an old Win9x/DOS computer, its reliability is priority. I found a convenient CF card adapter with a back panel bracket so it's extra useful when we want to transfer files easily between machines (USB doesn't exist on the old one).

Pentium MMX 200 (at 166MHz), 64Mb, 2Gb (CF), AWE32, S3 Virge DX/GX, 14" CRT, Win95.
Pentium 3 at 700MHz, 384Mb, 16Gb (CF), AWE64, Radeon 9200, white 15" LCD, Win98SE.
Toshiba 320CDS: Pentium MMX 233, 32Mb, 2Gb (CF), slow LCD, Win95.

Reply 1 of 14, by MarmotaArmy

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I guess the answer is on how much will you use it. Casual use , any cf card. Heavy use , get a industrial grade. I bought a 8GB Transcend CF 220I for my Pentium 233 and another one for my K6-2+ systems. Good experience so far but I don't use them everyday so maybe It was overkill.

Here are the specs, you can get them on ebay :
https://www.transcend-info.com/embedded/produ … ry-cards/cf220i

Note: it's better to enter the CHS values manually in the BIOS.

Reply 2 of 14, by Shponglefan

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I tend to use one of three brands:

Cisco Industrial
Sandisk (standard red/blue label consumer cards)
Verbatim (standard cards)

These have all been reliable for me.

The only issues I've had with one of the Verbatim cards has been a result of using it as my main testbench. It's been subjected to a lot of crashes and reboots as a result of hardware/driver testing. Occasionally the file system has been messed up, but that's been a result of specific use of the card, not the card itself.

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 3 of 14, by SGM

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I found this "industrial" one at a local online store so I'll give it a try. 😀
"Transcend CompactFlash (CF) CF170 Industrial - Flash memory card, - 16GB - 170x"

Another one "TRANSCEND CFCard 32GB 133x" is much cheaper and 2x larger capacity, but it's not "industrial".

Pentium MMX 200 (at 166MHz), 64Mb, 2Gb (CF), AWE32, S3 Virge DX/GX, 14" CRT, Win95.
Pentium 3 at 700MHz, 384Mb, 16Gb (CF), AWE64, Radeon 9200, white 15" LCD, Win98SE.
Toshiba 320CDS: Pentium MMX 233, 32Mb, 2Gb (CF), slow LCD, Win95.

Reply 4 of 14, by douglar

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SGM wrote on 2024-05-29, 05:08:

Another one "TRANSCEND CFCard 32GB 133x" is much cheaper and 2x larger capacity, but it's not "industrial".

"industrial" is sort of a marketing term. Ideally, it would mean:

  • Defaults to "True IDE mode" and supports CHS addressing
  • Reports itself as a fixed disk, not ATAPI removable media (only Win2K & XP check for this )
  • Has firmware tuned for low latency random access patterns used on computers
  • Has wear leveling with plenty of "over provisioning" for a longer life span, less write amplification

My experience with the Transcend 133x models is that they work fine for DOS & Win95, but the firmware seems to be optimized for high-throughput, not low latency. They managed > 60MB/s transfers, but the file access latency was >~0.75ms. My experience with 2GB industrial CF's had throughput around 30MB/s with access times ~0.35ms when operating at UDMA6 transfer modes.

Throughput is often ultimately limited by the number of flash chips in the CF, so the larger capacity cards are likely to have better throughput when you compare devices from the same product line. A CF with one flash chip is going to be at a disadvantage compared to a 2 chip or 4 chip design, all else being the same. The downside with getting larger CF's is that if your computer has BIOS or storage device drivers older than 1997, your system may act unpredictably when storage > 8.4GB is attached.

Additionally, most CF's are also throughput limited on PC's because they don't support multi-sectors transfers in True IDE mode, while a mechanical drives >= 1996 or a Sata SSD usually will support block modes > 1. This is rarely noticeable with operating systems <= Win98se where most of the files are small. Might be more of a concern as you move into Win XP and newer.

Reply 5 of 14, by SGM

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That was a nice and thorough response. 😀

As far as I'm concerned, I'm only planning to have MS-DOS 6.22, Win95 and Win98SE on my vintage PC's, no 2000, XP, or anything NT-like.

It should still be somewhat faster, more reliable and quieter (!) than those 1 to 4 Gb HDD's of the mid/late 90's, also considering their old age. Currently using an SD-based "hard drive", and it's so nicely quiet and fast, even though I often miss that real HDD reading/writing sound, but I don't miss their constant spin noise.

Pentium MMX 200 (at 166MHz), 64Mb, 2Gb (CF), AWE32, S3 Virge DX/GX, 14" CRT, Win95.
Pentium 3 at 700MHz, 384Mb, 16Gb (CF), AWE64, Radeon 9200, white 15" LCD, Win98SE.
Toshiba 320CDS: Pentium MMX 233, 32Mb, 2Gb (CF), slow LCD, Win95.

Reply 6 of 14, by Cosmic

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I also have had good luck with Cisco and Transcend Industrial CF cards. I've only ever had one die on me and that was the result of reading the whole card with "dd" through a cheap USB to CF adapter, so I can't recommend doing that. 😁

If you have a spare bay in your main PC it can be super handy to install a CF card reader directly into your PC, or at least use a good quality USB to CF adapter. This makes copying files to and from the cards very easy and hassle free.

UMC UM8498: DX2-66 SX955 WB | 32MB FPM | GD5426 VLB | Win3.1/95
MVP3: 600MHz K6-III+ | 256MB SDRAM | MX440 AGP | 98SE/NT4
440BX: 1300MHz P!!!-S SL5XL | 384MB ECC Reg | Quadro FX500 AGP | XP SP3

Reply 7 of 14, by douglar

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My favorite part about CF adapters is that they are easy to use for "sneaker net". Small enough to be convenient, large enough that they don't get lost in the couch.

I like to buy these adapters for cheap from China:

The attachment images (1).png is no longer available

And attach them to these to make front panel adapters:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5248654
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5248656

The Startech adapters are very nice if you want to pay a few more $$.

Reply 8 of 14, by chiveicrook

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Since you are happy with SD cards, I'd just continue using them. Just choose A1 rated cards or optionally industrial A1 cards. A1 cards are optimized for random access and "application use". A1 SD cards are rated for minimum 1500/500 read/write IOPS.
Only the very best CF cards can beat that and at their price point it's just better to buy SSDs and use them with SATA->ATA adapters.

Reply 9 of 14, by douglar

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chiveicrook wrote on 2024-05-29, 19:14:

Since you are happy with SD cards, I'd just continue using them. Just choose A1 rated cards or optionally industrial A1 cards. A1 cards are optimized for random access and "application use". A1 SD cards are rated for minimum 1500/500 read/write IOPS.
Only the very best CF cards can beat that and at their price point it's just better to buy SSDs and use them with SATA->ATA adapters.

Using A1 rated SD cards isn't going to hurt and they might be more reliable, but if you use them with an FC1307 based SD-IDE Bridge, don't expect much as far as extra performance. A Sintechi bridge can only access SD cards at "High Speed" mode, or 25MB/s max. So using ATA protocols faster than UDMA2 or using high end SD devices will improve your latency a bit, the SD will ultimately be constrained to perform about the same as the last gen of industrial CF's & 40 Pin DOMS that have recent firmware > 2014. CF's older than that tend to be much slower, but then ,the same is true for SD cards as well.

https://goughlui.com/2019/02/03/tested-generi … dapter-sd35vc0/

Reply 10 of 14, by waterbeesje

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CF are native IDE so the lack of the translation from SD to IDE makes it more reliable.
Next, for DOS id use any CF or SD. Chances you'll burn them are slim. When you'll use windows, there will be a lot of swapping typically, so there's lots of wear and tear on your device. That's where industrial stuff comes in. It simply won't burn out as fast as consumer grade stuff.

I have a bunch of pre used Cisco and Transcend industrial CF and no failure yet. Had 3 or 4 consumer grade CF (Transcend and another I can't recall atm) fail, probably due to the swapping.

Stuck at 10MHz...

Reply 11 of 14, by SGM

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waterbeesje wrote on 2024-05-29, 21:20:

When you'll use windows, there will be a lot of swapping typically, so there's lots of wear and tear on your device.

Even if we manually set the paging file to be smaller? I have read that it's not recommended to entirely disable it, even if there's plenty of RAM to go around.
Just an idea to try to minimize hard disk usage by Windows 9x.

Pentium MMX 200 (at 166MHz), 64Mb, 2Gb (CF), AWE32, S3 Virge DX/GX, 14" CRT, Win95.
Pentium 3 at 700MHz, 384Mb, 16Gb (CF), AWE64, Radeon 9200, white 15" LCD, Win98SE.
Toshiba 320CDS: Pentium MMX 233, 32Mb, 2Gb (CF), slow LCD, Win95.

Reply 12 of 14, by MadMac_5

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waterbeesje wrote on 2024-05-29, 21:20:

CF are native IDE so the lack of the translation from SD to IDE makes it more reliable.
Next, for DOS id use any CF or SD. Chances you'll burn them are slim. When you'll use windows, there will be a lot of swapping typically, so there's lots of wear and tear on your device. That's where industrial stuff comes in. It simply won't burn out as fast as consumer grade stuff.

I have a bunch of pre used Cisco and Transcend industrial CF and no failure yet. Had 3 or 4 consumer grade CF (Transcend and another I can't recall atm) fail, probably due to the swapping.

For Windows 9X, you'll only swap if you run out of physical memory, so stuffing in 512 MB of RAM tends to help. Windows XP was a bit more aggressive about using the pagefile for inactive applications, but I don't remember its exact behaviour. Windows Vista excessively swaps to the hard drive, which is one reason why so many people hated it when it came bundled on cheap laptops with slow hard drives and nowhere near enough RAM. From what I recall Windows 7 and 8 are less aggressive about swapping, but that may also be because RAM got a lot less expensive between 2006 and 2009 and we just didn't notice it as much until people need to install a Windows Update and the slow mechanical hard drives rear their ugly heads.

Reply 13 of 14, by douglar

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SGM wrote on 2024-05-30, 04:18:
waterbeesje wrote on 2024-05-29, 21:20:

When you'll use windows, there will be a lot of swapping typically, so there's lots of wear and tear on your device.

Even if we manually set the paging file to be smaller? I have read that it's not recommended to entirely disable it, even if there's plenty of RAM to go around.
Just an idea to try to minimize hard disk usage by Windows 9x.

Edit the system.ini and add ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1 to the 386enh section.

By default, the default swapfile usage in Win98 does a lot of "pre-paging" in the background, where it is constantly writing out the pages that it would swap out if it had to swap pages in the near future. That can help performance when you have < 32MB ram and a slow disk. It's not that helpful when you have >= 32MB of memory. ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1 stops that background swapfile chatter and extends the life of your SSD.

Reply 14 of 14, by jasa1063

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Shponglefan wrote on 2024-05-28, 15:55:
I tend to use one of three brands: […]
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I tend to use one of three brands:

Cisco Industrial
Sandisk (standard red/blue label consumer cards)
Verbatim (standard cards)

These have all been reliable for me.

The only issues I've had with one of the Verbatim cards has been a result of using it as my main testbench. It's been subjected to a lot of crashes and reboots as a result of hardware/driver testing. Occasionally the file system has been messed up, but that's been a result of specific use of the card, not the card itself.

I can also vouch for SanDisk & Verbatim cards listed. I use SanDisk for all my XT Class computers and Verbatim for all my 286 and above computers. All have been reliable with no issues.