The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-11, 00:54:

Alienware looks very compelling for such small size.

EDIT: Then again, looks like it's hella noisy and/or may have overheating issues (quick glance in the search confirms it).

I don't think they all have those issues. The original one with the GTX 860m (a laptop version of the 750 Ti) and Haswell i3 should run reasonably cool, even if upgraded to an i5 4590T. The later R2 model with a GTX 960 probably has a lot more trouble staying cool with 2x-3x the TDP of the 860M.

Don't get me wrong though... it's still a big proprietary chunk of plastic with very few replaceable parts, so not my ideal system by any means.

If someone wants a project though, a fairly late compact PC designed for gaming with hardware that should (in theory) work in Windows XP is pretty unique.

Personally, if I wanted an overpowered XP machine on the cheap I wouldn't obsess over trying to shave inches off of the case at the expense of performance and parts availability, so I'd opt for a PC that uses mostly standard full-height parts (for example, an Optiplex 9020 MT) and throw a normal sized PSU and graphics card in it. A GTX 970 can be had for so little these days it's crazy.

How small is small?

An HP 8300 Pro can run XP but doesnt have a traditional video card slot only the mobile GPU slot, which means you will be searching for a cooler for a year and a day to work with a GTX 285 or what ever was best in that slot.

There is a desktop case version of that called an Elite 8300.
I have one that has an i7-3770 and a GTX 750Ti.

Or would that be to big?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-11, 03:24:

How small is small? […]
Show full quote

How small is small?

An HP 8300 Pro can run XP but doesnt have a traditional video card slot only the mobile GPU slot, which means you will be searching for a cooler for a year and a day to work with a GTX 285 or what ever was best in that slot.

There is a desktop case version of that called an Elite 8300.
I have one that has an i7-3770 and a GTX 750Ti.

Or would that be to big?

Those are very similar to Dell's Optiplex lineup (comparable to the 9010 series), but I'm not a fan of the proprietary power supply form factor on the tower versions of HP's Elite systems. In my area the Dells are a bit more common so I have lot more experience with them and have had more replacement parts available for them. I'm guessing since you've got a GTX 750 Ti installed, it must be a tower, not an actual desktop right? Since those need low profile cards. Unless you managed to find a low profile 750 Ti that would squeeze in there.

The SFF desktop variants are similar in size to the Optiplex SFF systems.

In my opinion, even the towers would qualify as small PCs, but I am not that picky about space.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-10, 21:30:

Looking at HP offerings, it looks like T730 (not mentioned on parkytowers) fits the bill. SoC in that client is practically A10-7800/A10-7850K, but underclocked. Dual channel DDR3-2133 with Kaveri GPU which should have XP drivers. Same size as T620 Plus too. Absolute beast of a thin client.

The oldest OS it supports is Windows 7 64bit, isn't it? Speaking of power supply, is it possible to swap it for a more powerful one?

The oldest OS it supports is Windows 7 64bit, isn't it?

Officially - yes. But like I mentioned, it's practically A10 Kaveri APU, which has Windows XP support.

VivienM wrote on 2024-05-22, 21:32:

I gather that the consensus around here is that nForce is not where you want to go for a retro system.

There are a lot of different Nforce chipsets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_N … nForce_chipsets

Personally, I'm very fond of Nforce 1 & Nforce 2 for socket A builds. These chipsets often went into higher end offerings that used quality parts. The UDMA support in the BIOS was a feature I valued. I copied a lot of files under DOS. The Dolby 5.1 support on the models that have SoundStorm audio is still rare feature. Nforce 2 was one of the first chipsets with built in USB2.0, which has value in an SFF build. So if you are doing a SFF Socket A build, I'd definitely do an Nforce build w/ SoundStorm. I used to have a silver shuttle cube build that I used as a media PC that was very serviceable. I'll look for the model number today.

Nforce 3 was nice but the northbridge needed active cooling. The life span of an Nforce3 motherboard was often limited by the life span of the chipset fan. Probably not good for SFF.

The Nforce 61x0 series soured me on the brand. Soundstorm was long gone. USB 2.0 was no longer a stand-out feature. I no longer used DOS to copy large batches of files. The chipset was used on too many low end boards with low end capacitors. Too many boards because worthless because of inexplicably burned out USB controllers. But if you find a good one that didn't suffer an early death, maybe it could make a good SFF computer. You would likely still need a discreet VGA card. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1879/8

Edit: The silver shuttle cube I used back in the day was the Shuttle XPC SN41G2
https://global.shuttle.com/products/productsSpec?pn=SN41G2
Phil's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KacDDjeGKE

Did a quick test on T620 Plus thin client Radeon HD8400E in F.E.A.R., as a perfect Windows XP benchmark, and performance hovers somewhere around GeForce 8600GT, although drops more heavily with anti-aliasing, which is not surprising with single channel DDR3-1600 shared with the CPU. In other words it can only provide 50-60fps experience (with 20-30 fps during slomo in heavy firefights) in 1024x768 without quality options.

I happen to be finishing an XP oriented mini PC, I only needed to decide on the graphics card, I had already bought a cheap option that could work well, a Firepro W2100, but thanks to this thread, I just bought a Quadro K620, on paper the K620 should be more than enough for what I consider to be the XP era, games that only use DX8/9. For me, games that can use DX10/11 already belong to Win7.
I'm using the case and power supply of an Acer Aspire X1800, which is the smallest I have that can still mount a 5.25" optical drive and can mount two or maybe three 2.5’ hard disks.
Asrock H61M-VG3 ITX (has full official support for XP on the Asrock website).
Xeon E3 1230 v2. (Ivy Bridge)
8gb DDR3 1600, dual channel
I can't wait to see how the K620 performs, because the rest of the components are already more than enough for XP.
Currently, I have an HD 5470 which is not enough for many games even though the resolutions I want to play at are what I consider usual for the time, I'm not looking to play a DX8/9 game at 1920x1080.

Quadro K620 hovers around GTX 260 performance, which is enough to play F.E.A.R. on 1920x1200 with 4x AA / 8x AF (100+ fps average).

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-06-11, 04:46:

Those are very similar to Dell's Optiplex lineup (comparable to the 9010 series), but I'm not a fan of the proprietary power sup […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-11, 03:24:

How small is small? […]
Show full quote

How small is small?

An HP 8300 Pro can run XP but doesnt have a traditional video card slot only the mobile GPU slot, which means you will be searching for a cooler for a year and a day to work with a GTX 285 or what ever was best in that slot.

There is a desktop case version of that called an Elite 8300.
I have one that has an i7-3770 and a GTX 750Ti.

Or would that be to big?

Those are very similar to Dell's Optiplex lineup (comparable to the 9010 series), but I'm not a fan of the proprietary power supply form factor on the tower versions of HP's Elite systems. In my area the Dells are a bit more common so I have lot more experience with them and have had more replacement parts available for them. I'm guessing since you've got a GTX 750 Ti installed, it must be a tower, not an actual desktop right? Since those need low profile cards. Unless you managed to find a low profile 750 Ti that would squeeze in there.

The SFF desktop variants are similar in size to the Optiplex SFF systems.

In my opinion, even the towers would qualify as small PCs, but I am not that picky about space.

Its a low profile 750Ti... I have a couple of them. Theyre quite nice.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-12, 02:21:

Quadro K620 hovers around GTX 260 performance, which is enough to play F.E.A.R. on 1920x1200 with 4x AA / 8x AF (100+ fps average).

If it is as you say, it will be a great option for my objectives, and for those of the person who started this thread, because the K620 are quite cheap for their performance, ‘theoretically’, we'll see what happens with DX8/9 games.
I'm a bit worried that there are no official drivers for the K620 and XP, I'll have to modify the driver inf for a GT 745 which I think is the closest to the K620.
Although there is something floating around the internet that seems to be ready.
I just hope it doesn't get lost along the way.

Hoping wrote on 2024-06-12, 09:03:

If it is as you say, it will be a great option for my objectives, and for those of the person who started this thread, because the K620 are quite cheap for their performance, ‘theoretically’, we'll see what happens with DX8/9 games.

On the second thought, I'm probably a bit too optimistic about it. While the chip itself is reasonably fast, DDR3 128-bit memory bus will severely limit the performance of quality modes. K620 has only half of the GTS 450 memory bandwidth and that card is roughly 9800GTX/GTS 250 speed. So I suspect that, realistically, K620 will score slightly above 9800GTX level of performance, even with all architecture improvements, i.e. first generation of high-end DX10 GPUs.

HP Z230 SFF with an E3-1225 V3 and a GTX 750Ti?

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-06-11, 04:46:

Those are very similar to Dell's Optiplex lineup (comparable to the 9010 series), but I'm not a fan of the proprietary power sup […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-11, 03:24:

How small is small? […]
Show full quote

How small is small?

An HP 8300 Pro can run XP but doesnt have a traditional video card slot only the mobile GPU slot, which means you will be searching for a cooler for a year and a day to work with a GTX 285 or what ever was best in that slot.

There is a desktop case version of that called an Elite 8300.
I have one that has an i7-3770 and a GTX 750Ti.

Or would that be to big?

Those are very similar to Dell's Optiplex lineup (comparable to the 9010 series), but I'm not a fan of the proprietary power supply form factor on the tower versions of HP's Elite systems. In my area the Dells are a bit more common so I have lot more experience with them and have had more replacement parts available for them. I'm guessing since you've got a GTX 750 Ti installed, it must be a tower, not an actual desktop right? Since those need low profile cards. Unless you managed to find a low profile 750 Ti that would squeeze in there.

The SFF desktop variants are similar in size to the Optiplex SFF systems.

In my opinion, even the towers would qualify as small PCs, but I am not that picky about space.

Yeah I can understand the proprietary PSU putting you off right up until you see just how many of them there are on ebay and how little they go for on there.
It makes it a mute point in my opinion.

Its a SFF PC desktop case I have.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-12, 10:25:

On the second thought, I'm probably a bit too optimistic about it. While the chip itself is reasonably fast, DDR3 128-bit memory bus will severely limit the performance of quality modes. K620 has only half of the GTS 450 memory bandwidth and that card is roughly 9800GTX/GTS 250 speed. So I suspect that, realistically, K620 will score slightly above 9800GTX level of performance, even with all architecture improvements, i.e. first generation of high-end DX10 GPUs.

Even so, if it was comparable to a GTS 250, I'm still happy, in XP there is no official DX10 support, unofficially, you can install it, but when I tried it, I had a lot of backwards compatibility problems, so, for me it's out of the question. In fact, a 32bit Windows 7 has given me less problems than XP with DX10.
The resolutions I use in XP, are 1024x768 and 1280x1024 mostly, some games from the end of the DX9 era are interesting in 1600x900.
For me the real start of widescreen resolutions in games is DX10/11, i.e. Win7.
At the moment I'm very grateful to the user who mentioned the K620, because the GTX 750 is totally out of the question for me, they ask too much money for the performance it offers. I already have a GTX 760 on a 32-bit Windows 7, which in the end is very compatible with all XP-era software. And the 760 cost me much less than what they're asking for a low-profile GTX 750.

Hoping wrote on 2024-06-12, 11:36:

Even so, if it was comparable to a GTS 250, I'm still happy, in XP there is no official DX10 support, unofficially, you can inst […]
Show full quote

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-12, 10:25:

On the second thought, I'm probably a bit too optimistic about it. While the chip itself is reasonably fast, DDR3 128-bit memory bus will severely limit the performance of quality modes. K620 has only half of the GTS 450 memory bandwidth and that card is roughly 9800GTX/GTS 250 speed. So I suspect that, realistically, K620 will score slightly above 9800GTX level of performance, even with all architecture improvements, i.e. first generation of high-end DX10 GPUs.

Even so, if it was comparable to a GTS 250, I'm still happy, in XP there is no official DX10 support, unofficially, you can install it, but when I tried it, I had a lot of backwards compatibility problems, so, for me it's out of the question. In fact, a 32bit Windows 7 has given me less problems than XP with DX10.
The resolutions I use in XP, are 1024x768 and 1280x1024 mostly, some games from the end of the DX9 era are interesting in 1600x900.
For me the real start of widescreen resolutions in games is DX10/11, i.e. Win7.
At the moment I'm very grateful to the user who mentioned the K620, because the GTX 750 is totally out of the question for me, they ask too much money for the performance it offers. I already have a GTX 760 on a 32-bit Windows 7, which in the end is very compatible with all XP-era software. And the 760 cost me much less than what they're asking for a low-profile GTX 750.

The latest GTX750Ti I bought was £35 delivered...
There is another on ebay now for £55+shipping.

An HP Z230 with an E3-1225 V3 Xeon is on there for £68.99 inc shipping.

If thats to much I have little to nothing more to say to help...

Will the HP T620 Plus thin client run XP?

I dont have a T620 Plus to try, only a T630 and T730

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-12, 10:25:

Hoping wrote on 2024-06-12, 09:03:

If it is as you say, it will be a great option for my objectives, and for those of the person who started this thread, because the K620 are quite cheap for their performance, ‘theoretically’, we'll see what happens with DX8/9 games.

On the second thought, I'm probably a bit too optimistic about it. While the chip itself is reasonably fast, DDR3 128-bit memory bus will severely limit the performance of quality modes. K620 has only half of the GTS 450 memory bandwidth and that card is roughly 9800GTX/GTS 250 speed. So I suspect that, realistically, K620 will score slightly above 9800GTX level of performance, even with all architecture improvements, i.e. first generation of high-end DX10 GPUs.

Maxwell is significantly more bandwidth efficient, even compared to Kepler, so a GTS 250 is ancient technology in comparison. That said, I would love to see actual benchmarks comparing these cards!

A good example of Maxwell's advantages would be how the K620 beats the HD7750 pretty easily, despite the HD7750 having more than twice the bandwidth and being only one generation older.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-12, 10:30:

HP Z230 SFF with an E3-1225 V3 and a GTX 750Ti? […]
Show full quote

HP Z230 SFF with an E3-1225 V3 and a GTX 750Ti?

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-06-11, 04:46:

Those are very similar to Dell's Optiplex lineup (comparable to the 9010 series), but I'm not a fan of the proprietary power sup […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-11, 03:24:

How small is small? […]
Show full quote

How small is small?

An HP 8300 Pro can run XP but doesnt have a traditional video card slot only the mobile GPU slot, which means you will be searching for a cooler for a year and a day to work with a GTX 285 or what ever was best in that slot.

There is a desktop case version of that called an Elite 8300.
I have one that has an i7-3770 and a GTX 750Ti.

Or would that be to big?

Those are very similar to Dell's Optiplex lineup (comparable to the 9010 series), but I'm not a fan of the proprietary power supply form factor on the tower versions of HP's Elite systems. In my area the Dells are a bit more common so I have lot more experience with them and have had more replacement parts available for them. I'm guessing since you've got a GTX 750 Ti installed, it must be a tower, not an actual desktop right? Since those need low profile cards. Unless you managed to find a low profile 750 Ti that would squeeze in there.

The SFF desktop variants are similar in size to the Optiplex SFF systems.

In my opinion, even the towers would qualify as small PCs, but I am not that picky about space.

Yeah I can understand the proprietary PSU putting you off right up until you see just how many of them there are on ebay and how little they go for on there.
It makes it a mute point in my opinion.

Its a SFF PC desktop case I have.

I was just referring to the power supplies in the mid tower style because I didn't think you could fit a 750 ti into one of their sff models. Similar mid Tower systems from Dell and Lenovo take standard power supplies, so there are a ton of different options for GPUs you can use in those computers.

Fitting one into an SFF desktop is pretty sweet though. Can you send a picture of the model of HP 8300 you have?

Nevermind! Just saw your post saying it was a low profile card. That makes a lot more sense. 😅 Sorry.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-12, 16:39:

The latest GTX750Ti I bought was £35 delivered...
There is another on ebay now for £55+shipping.

Have you considered a Quadro K1200 or K2200?

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-06-12, 16:42:

Maxwell is significantly more bandwidth efficient, even compared to Kepler, so a GTS 250 is ancient technology in comparison. That said, I would love to see actual benchmarks comparing these cards!

Anand still has a GTS450 vs GTX750ti. The GTS 450 had about 40% the frame rate of a 750TI at 1080 and had slightly worse thermals and power draw.
https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1134?vs=1130

At the time, the 250 had more bandwidth while 450 had better clock speed, but when looking back 13 years, the GTS 250 and GTS 450 look very similar when using a 1080 monitor, although the 250 still has worse thermals and power draw than the 450.

Archive of Toms GPU Performance Hierarchy 2019. The GTS 250 and GTS 450 were 4 tiers below the 750Ti.
https://archive.ph/6yvHx

And of course, there is the TLDR benchmark which has the GTS 250 ~= GTS 450, and both are listed at ~40% of a 750TI.
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia- … 250/2187vsm7741

Edit - fixed some typos and made other things more clear

douglar wrote on 2024-06-12, 18:29:

Have you considered a Quadro K1200 or K2200? […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-12, 16:39:

The latest GTX750Ti I bought was £35 delivered...
There is another on ebay now for £55+shipping.

Have you considered a Quadro K1200 or K2200?

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-06-12, 16:42:

Maxwell is significantly more bandwidth efficient, even compared to Kepler, so a GTS 250 is ancient technology in comparison. That said, I would love to see actual benchmarks comparing these cards!

Anand still has a GTS450 vs GTX750ti. The GTS 450 had about 40% the frame rate of a 750TI at 1080 and had slightly worse thermals and power draw.
https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1134?vs=1130

At the time, the 250 had more bandwidth while 450 had better clock speed, but when looking back 13 years, the GTS 250 and GTS 450 look very similar when using a 1080 monitor, although the 250 still has worse thermals and power draw than the 450.

Archive of Toms GPU Performance Hierarchy 2019. The GTS 250 and GTS 450 were 4 tiers below the 750Ti.
https://archive.ph/6yvHx

And of course, there is the TLDR benchmark which has the GTS 250 ~= GTS 450, and both are listed at ~40% of a 750TI.
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia- … 250/2187vsm7741

Edit - fixed some typos and made other things more clear

No because the GTX 750Ti performs about 29% faster then the K1200.
But those 4 DP outputs are an attraction.
K2200 isnt low profile so wont fit and because of that cant be considered.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-12, 16:39:

I dont have a T620 Plus to try, only a T630 and T730

Have you tried installing on T730? Despite a higher number in the name, T730 was actually released way before T630. It has an APU from early 2014.

douglar wrote on 2024-06-12, 18:29:

Anand still has a GTS450 vs GTX750ti. The GTS 450 had about 40% the frame rate of a 750TI at 1080 and had slightly worse thermals and power draw.
https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1134?vs=1130

And K620 is almost gutted by half in everything, when compared to 750 Ti.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-12, 19:12:

Have you tried installing on T730? Despite a higher number in the name, T730 was actually released way before T630. It has an AP […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-12, 16:39:

I dont have a T620 Plus to try, only a T630 and T730

Have you tried installing on T730? Despite a higher number in the name, T730 was actually released way before T630. It has an APU from early 2014.

douglar wrote on 2024-06-12, 18:29:

Anand still has a GTS450 vs GTX750ti. The GTS 450 had about 40% the frame rate of a 750TI at 1080 and had slightly worse thermals and power draw.
https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1134?vs=1130

And K620 is almost gutted by half in everything, when compared to 750 Ti.

No I havent tried to install XP onto my T730s I bought the first one to run multiple monitors but then I found that it couldnt use its 4 DP outputs and an addin video card (NVS 510) too so I had to get a second T730 to get 8 outputs.

Most of my computers have a very specific use... Its rare I try some lab work on them when I get it working unless I get something else to replace it and end up keeping it for lab work.