Demolition-Man wrote on 2024-06-23, 08:30:

Duke3D causes problems with MIDI and effects above 11KHz.

i think this is considered more of a hardware deficiency rather than a bug, and at least it can be worked around by dropping mixing rate as you said. but the question is also to what extent the sound driver authors are to blame, and to what extent they even tested said drivers. other than build games, i can't even think of another DOS game offhand that will even allow you to set CD-quality SFX output while playing MIDI so there is that. and yes, using two cards is still the best way to work around this, use a cheap vibra or something for MPU-401 perhaps, because those things are pretty flawed otherwise.

Demolition-Man wrote on 2024-06-23, 08:30:

When the usual suspects talk about the Creative sound cards (DSP 4.16) being completely bug-free in their videos, they are only referring to the hanging note bug. Correctly?
The stuttering bug affects all SB16/AWE32/SB32/AWE64?

Correct, being bug-free usually refers to the hanging note bug. The MPU-401 stuttering bug affects every real SB16-based sound cards.

How do you get bug-free MIDI in conjunction with a SB32 Creative card? The only solution is a second sound card as a MIDI carrier?

There are only two ways to mitigate this bug:

• Add a secondary ISA sound card for MPU-401 duties or digitized sounds.
• For AWE/SB32 sound cards: Use the EMU8K for MIDI music and/or MPU-401 emulation. Said emulation is useful if running DOS games within a Windows 9x environment as it offers you the option to use SF2 SoundFonts. In DOS, the emulation is limited to AWEUTIL but at least there is DOS32AWE for DOS games using the DOS/4GW extender.

But now my question to you: What do you do if you have an SB32 and want to use AWEUTIL? Does this work in conjunction with UNISOUND?

AWEUTIL isn't needed if you are just initializing the sound card. If you are going to use it for MPU-401 emulation in DOS, then AWEUTIL works after the sound card is initialized.

Can you also use another sound card as a MIDI carrier with an AWE32/SB32, with the original drivers or UNISOUND? Or both?

Yes, another sound card can be used with an AWE/SB32 without problems as long as there aren't any conflicts with the resources.

Can you operate a joystick and MIDI at the same time via the game port? As far as I know, this is possible.

This is possible due to the gameport having redundant pins for joysticks/gamepads.

Sorry was busy, thx for the answers!
The sad part, my new daughterboard (fortunately a cheap one) got lost in tranport by mail.

I also dont know, if i have the space for a second sound card in this machine, but i`ll give it a try.

I`m aware of the possibilities of DOS32AWE, and soundfonts in WIndows, but both have their limitations.
A cheap daughterboard usually does the trick for all midi things.

Awesome that this could work with unisound and with a AWE32/SB32 card.

I have to look for another daugherboard and a sound card that accepts the resource settings from unisound. If that doesn't fit or doesn't work, the only option is the external MPU-401 solution on the SB32.

Demolition-Man wrote on 2024-06-23, 08:30:

Hi, that can be cleared up quickly. When the usual suspects talk about the Creative sound cards (DSP 4.16) being completely bug […]
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Hi,
that can be cleared up quickly. When the usual suspects talk about the Creative sound cards (DSP 4.16) being completely bug-free in their videos, they are only referring to the hanging note bug. Correctly?
The stuttering bug affects all SB16/AWE32/SB32/AWE64?

Duke3D causes problems with MIDI and effects above 11KHz. TIE Fighter (CD) literally stops (intro) when you operate a daughterboard on Creative sound cards. DOTT becomes speed sensitive with General MIDI in combination with a Creative card and so on.

How do you get bug-free MIDI in conjunction with a SB32 Creative card? The only solution is a second sound card as a MIDI carrier?
I have a setup like this, with an SB16 and an Aztech card. It works well with UNISOUND, and solves all of the problems mentioned above, but leads to other bugs. For example, a new variant of a hanging note bug.^^

But now my question to you: What do you do if you have an SB32 and want to use AWEUTIL? Does this work in conjunction with UNISOUND? Can you also use another sound card as a MIDI carrier with an AWE32/SB32, with the original drivers or UNISOUND? Or both?

Nevertheless, I still have a question about the setup with the CHiLL and Phil adapter. Can you operate a joystick and MIDI at the same time via the game port? As far as I know, this is possible. But what options are there to split the game port? Simple Y adapters generally do not work, and the Y splitter from serdashop is sold out. Here in Germany there doesn't seem to be anything else like this to buy, and I can't make it myself.

Thanks and regards!

There is no "bug free" Sound Blaster, I had like 10 of them and they all were bugged, even when it doesn't have hanging note bug, it still has other bugs you mentioned. I gave up, just use some ESS cards like ES1688, ES1868 or the best - ES1869, these cards are really completely bug-free and have even better compatiblity with games than SB16. You don't need SB16 compatiblity, most of games run in SB Pro mode anyway.

I think if you want an SB16 in the computer while avoiding all the SB16 issues you need a 2 card setup. The second card takes over MPU401 and single cycle DMA games. My sidecard of choice is PicoGUS.

Pidalin_CZ wrote on 2025-12-18, 02:08:

There is no "bug free" Sound Blaster, I had like 10 of them and they all were bugged, even when it doesn't have hanging note bug, it still has other bugs you mentioned. I gave up, just use some ESS cards like ES1688, ES1868 or the best - ES1869, these cards are really completely bug-free and have even better compatiblity with games than SB16. You don't need SB16 compatiblity, most of games run in SB Pro mode anyway.

And how exactly is ES1869 better than ES1868?

Pidalin_CZ wrote on 2025-12-18, 02:08:

There is no "bug free" Sound Blaster, I had like 10 of them and they all were bugged, even when it doesn't have hanging note bug, it still has other bugs you mentioned. I gave up, just use some ESS cards like ES1688, ES1868 or the best - ES1869, these cards are really completely bug-free and have even better compatiblity with games than SB16. You don't need SB16 compatiblity, most of games run in SB Pro mode anyway.

Same, I have several Creative cards, SB 2 PRO, several SB16 and even a AWE64 Gold.
Would love to use them as they are way more historic and better looking, but gave up.

My ugly CMI8330 does everything perfectly, including SB PRO, SB16, and MIDI bug free.

georgel wrote on 2025-12-18, 17:16:

Pidalin_CZ wrote on 2025-12-18, 02:08:

There is no "bug free" Sound Blaster, I had like 10 of them and they all were bugged, even when it doesn't have hanging note bug, it still has other bugs you mentioned. I gave up, just use some ESS cards like ES1688, ES1868 or the best - ES1869, these cards are really completely bug-free and have even better compatiblity with games than SB16. You don't need SB16 compatiblity, most of games run in SB Pro mode anyway.

And how exactly is ES1869 better than ES1868?

ES1868 and ES1869 chips have the same pinout and you can replace them, it's pretty much the same chip, only difference (and that can be very usefull) is that ES1869 has a significantly better balanced volume levels for each thing like FM music, wavetable, PCM etc....it's all much better balanced, no blasting OPL music and silent effects like with ES1868. Ofcourse you can adjust it by software, but some dos games use their own drivers and completely ignore it and on some cards it just doesn't work at all, so ES1869 makes it easier, it's already perfect from the factory.

Pino wrote on 2025-12-18, 19:32:

Same, I have several Creative cards, SB 2 PRO, several SB16 and even a AWE64 Gold. Would love to use them as they are way more h […]
Show full quote

Pidalin_CZ wrote on 2025-12-18, 02:08:

There is no "bug free" Sound Blaster, I had like 10 of them and they all were bugged, even when it doesn't have hanging note bug, it still has other bugs you mentioned. I gave up, just use some ESS cards like ES1688, ES1868 or the best - ES1869, these cards are really completely bug-free and have even better compatiblity with games than SB16. You don't need SB16 compatiblity, most of games run in SB Pro mode anyway.

Same, I have several Creative cards, SB 2 PRO, several SB16 and even a AWE64 Gold.
Would love to use them as they are way more historic and better looking, but gave up.

My ugly CMI8330 does everything perfectly, including SB PRO, SB16, and MIDI bug free.

CMI8330 has a pretty bad Adblib emulation, if you want to use it for dos gaming, this can be important, but if you don't know how exactly those soundtracks should sound, maybe you won't even notice. The best thing about ESS cards is that their ESFM emulation sounds exactly 1:1 as a real Yamaha OPL3 even then real yamaha chip is not there. Later Creative cards also don't have real Yamaha chip, but their CQM OPL emulation is similar to CMI8330, not literally great, it can be annoying in some games.

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken, it's common knowledge here that CMI cards have a 1:1 OPL3 FM.

You can go check this thread: Sound Blaster 16 Clones

ESFM while really good and even more capable than Yamaha OPL3 in some areas is not a 1:1 clone.

Yeah, CMI8330 has an accurate OPL3 core in it, I have not found a single game that sounded different from the Yamaha's chips.

Pidalin_CZ wrote on 2025-12-19, 17:19:

georgel wrote on 2025-12-18, 17:16:

Pidalin_CZ wrote on 2025-12-18, 02:08:

There is no "bug free" Sound Blaster, I had like 10 of them and they all were bugged, even when it doesn't have hanging note bug, it still has other bugs you mentioned. I gave up, just use some ESS cards like ES1688, ES1868 or the best - ES1869, these cards are really completely bug-free and have even better compatiblity with games than SB16. You don't need SB16 compatiblity, most of games run in SB Pro mode anyway.

And how exactly is ES1869 better than ES1868?

ES1868 and ES1869 chips have the same pinout and you can replace them, it's pretty much the same chip, only difference (and that can be very usefull) is that ES1869 has a significantly better balanced volume levels for each thing like FM music, wavetable, PCM etc....it's all much better balanced, no blasting OPL music and silent effects like with ES1868. Ofcourse you can adjust it by software, but some dos games use their own drivers and completely ignore it and on some cards it just doesn't work at all, so ES1869 makes it easier, it's already perfect from the factory.

Is it your subjective perception, or you can prove that with facts from an ESS datasheet?

georgel wrote on 2025-12-23, 22:28:

Pidalin_CZ wrote on 2025-12-19, 17:19:

georgel wrote on 2025-12-18, 17:16:

And how exactly is ES1869 better than ES1868?

ES1868 and ES1869 chips have the same pinout and you can replace them, it's pretty much the same chip, only difference (and that can be very usefull) is that ES1869 has a significantly better balanced volume levels for each thing like FM music, wavetable, PCM etc....it's all much better balanced, no blasting OPL music and silent effects like with ES1868. Ofcourse you can adjust it by software, but some dos games use their own drivers and completely ignore it and on some cards it just doesn't work at all, so ES1869 makes it easier, it's already perfect from the factory.

Is it your sbjective perception, or you can prove that with facts from an ESS datasheet?

I cannot confirm such consistent differences regarding volume levels. The only real differences I can confirm (and also can be found in datasheets) are ES1869 supports 48 kHz sampling rate natively, 3D spatial audio, and full duplex stereo playback and recording at the same time.

Thank tou, Falcosoft. That question of mine was rhetoric.