yes! the C15 is a nice car, mine have 596.789km and still run fine, very few problems, and because is from 1985 almost dont pay any taxes

theelf wrote on 2024-06-05, 08:33:

yes! the C15 is a nice car, mine have 596.789km and still run fine, very few problems, and because is from 1985 almost dont pay any taxes

any tips on making the motor and mechanics last that long ! it has covered a very long distance, i guess its well made and has had regular maintenance, replacement parts and so forth.

all this time you kept it going you didn't create "demand" for another car to be made, so its good for the world too! (as well as being cooler as it gets older and rarer 😀 )

My 2021 LC500.
i wasn't supposed to own it this long, it was meant to be exchanged in order for me to work on some other equally important things, but something must have happened along the way and i got stuck.

Repo Man11 wrote on 2024-06-02, 20:31:

I once had a Suzuki motorcycle do this repeatedly - quit on the highway only for me to come back later and it would start right up. The failing component was one of the crank trigger ignitors which would only fail when the engine was hot. That bike was a 1984 model, and it had several electronic component failures like that while I owned it. The 2001 Suzuki Bandit 1200 I had was much better in that regard as I put many miles on it and none of the electronic ignition components failed.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-03, 03:23:

Yah, crank sensors, knock sensors, coil packs are primary suspects for cutting out while hot, notable mentions for injector drivers when applicable.

I gotta get back to the self inflicted knuckle wounds scene, got an alternator coming for the Versa Note, gotta see what that does for it. I wanted to be retired from doing my own wrenching but I'm up to a count of three "Nissan Master Tech" screwups and so also now two things in the past I'm really suspicious of too, so guess I'll have to be my own mechanic again.

Who knows, maybe the official service personnel would have found something if I took it to VW, though my general impression with mechanics is that they don't give a damn once the car is too old. I didn't get a cent for it when I left it at the dealership, apparently because of that little bit of rust that has persisted through many years.

It also had a permanently lit up CHECK light, when I "inherited" it from family member 5 years earlier, it was said it's nothing important, mechanic must have just cleared error codes every year it had to be taken to yearly mandatory technical inspection. The next day, the light would be back.

Another quirk, I assume due to age, if you had ventilation on and hit the brake, petrol smell came into the cabin.

Before I got it, we still had a car workshop right at home, maybe some of these issues, at least the rust could be taken care of, but you know what they say about blacksmith's mare.

So ended up with a more up-to-date model, better acceleration, better brakes, goes further with same amount of petrol, much quieter; nobody hears me anymore when I get home, also better when it comes to listening to something that's not an engine noise; and a working AC, the AC in old car was broken for years, maybe if I got it fixed it first year, it would still be worth it, but living without it wasn't as bad as I would've thought.

gerry wrote on 2024-06-05, 18:39:

theelf wrote on 2024-06-05, 08:33:

yes! the C15 is a nice car, mine have 596.789km and still run fine, very few problems, and because is from 1985 almost dont pay any taxes

any tips on making the motor and mechanics last that long ! it has covered a very long distance, i guess its well made and has had regular maintenance, replacement parts and so forth.

all this time you kept it going you didn't create "demand" for another car to be made, so its good for the world too! (as well as being cooler as it gets older and rarer 😀 )

I hate cars, hate drive, is worst thing i need to do every day, but sadly i need to do for work. I do minimal maintenance, i have a friend is mechanic and he check 1-2 times year, change oil, filters etc lucky me the C15 is not complex, no power steering, very basic electric system, distribution chain (no belt), and cheap as hell parts. I can buy whatever i need in a junk yard for cents exept tires

Anyways, i dont do long trips, just working near my town, 100-200km every day maximum

My babies

I can see me getting a BMW in a year or two, there's some nice diesel X3 and X5 about to fall off the luxo barge 10 year price cliff, aided by their gas engine siblings blowing up when owners forget to put high octane gas in. Then I've got about 2 or 3 years before everyone goes "Hey, looks like the diesels aren't dying off so quick" and the price bobs back up a bit again. That's if the same logic doesn't also apply to the Cayenne diesel, it would be a hoot getting that, the un-Porsche, and having a "My Other Car is a Kia" bumper sticker on it.

I drive one of these. ('07 Mazda 3)

The alternate vehicle, is one of these. ('07 Ford Explorer)

the latter, I got at an impound lot on a salvage title for 1000$. Its.... a bit beat up. But drives. Cant beat the price. I've gotten more than my money's worth out of it.

Yeah, let's raise a glass to cars you get more than your money's worth out of.

Like my old Ford Escort, what a trooper, bought it with 220,000ish km on for $500, put 250,000km on top of that... yes I spent a lot on parts over 10 years, but nothing you wouldn't expect for mileage, guesstimate of $5000 in repair costs all in, $500 a year say. It's final year though, it had got to a state where the only parts you could pick up in a hurry, i.e. not wait 2 weeks, were chinesium that had 90 day warranty and lasted like 91 days to the hour. Then the transmission got too shagged out, and there was nasty structural rust, and electrical had been patched up so many times it needed a whole new harness, so I had to call it a day, very sadly.

Before accepting that the Escort was terminal though, it's EOL care got super draining, especially at the crappy parts point where I was doing the same jobs every few months. So I went with a brand new car.... The 2015 Versa Note.... what a stinker..... I must be $30,000 in the hole on that for only 170,000 km, plus an additional $3500 in warranty work, and "I dun my resurch" in the first place where one of the big auto sites, not sure if it was Edmunds or someone said it was gonna be the lowest TCO, Total Cost of Ownership... and I only would have saved about $2000 in gas vs what I was getting in the Escort over that time. ... Though actually it had been my plan to trade it in in 2020, but then we got to 2020 annnnd yeah, 2020.

Anywayssss, long live the beaters!

However, I have a ton of medical problems which means I ain't energetic enough to do a lot of my own work now. It's hard to find a mechanic like theelf seems to have that will appreciate an older vehicle and give it their best. Especially at those times when it has a value of $500 and you need a $1000 repair, because many think you'll bail on them. Even if they do it, they might be doing it in a hurry, slapdash because they think they're gonna lose the labour. I know one guy who is great, but he's 25 miles out of town in the middle of nowhere, which is a problem to get to with a car that needs fixing.... also you can't jump on a bus to get home. Also he's kinda slow, like do I take 2 weeks picking at it, or do I leave it there for 2 weeks.

Huge desire to go back to beaters though. At least for one car out of two. In former times though, I've had a problem with 2 cars where one gets all the attention and repair money and the other sits, and sits, then becomes a "project"... but wondering if I can avoid that now, due to improved personal economic circumstances, and get the beater looked after quicker... or not... wifey wants the Versa Note to be the 2nd car, I want a bigger 2nd. Like I said above, something more of a "tow pig" which is why I was getting all interested in diesels that might be cheap and get the fuel mileage my Escort was getting.

Apropos of that, I am quite tempted by a 2nd gen Ford Escape hybrid that showed up cheap and tatty about an hour away. Those drivetrains have done half a million miles in taxis. Packs are rebuildable. Got the same everything that tows 3500lb in the V6, but Ford limit them to 1000lb because the electric motor provides reverse, so you could burn that up backing 3500lb up a slope. Just wondering whether to gamble on making a mental note never to do that, and there's a bunch of workarounds to avoid having to do that. (Winch on trailer back bumper, maneuvering hitch on FRONT of Escape, electric trailer "self parking" system, powered hitch dolly....) .... so pondering the move of, buying the Escape, getting some patch panels put on for cheap, tidying it up myself.... .... annnnd the summer's gone 🤣

Edit: gah... math is a bitch... just ran numbers, I've got the Town and Country Van still, that has the tow kit for 3500lb... it's been sitting, it's a bit rusty, needs about $1500 mechanical and $1000 in prettying up... I got 20mpg in it... IF I did as much as 10,000 a year in it, which is a little doubtful, my 5yr gas costs would be approx $9000 ish presuming prices are averagely the same. Whereas getting a 30mpg vehicle, I would spend $6000 on gas... So that's like a $3000 margin.... If I'm looking at vehicles at $5000, and they also prolly need $1000 spending to bring them up to snuff, (Escape mentioned more like same as I paid for it on initial repairs, but ending in same ballpark) then I'm $3000 worse off. To break even I need to find a 30mpg tow vehicle for under $3000 that can be driven without work, presuming rolling repairs and maintenance on similar age vehicles will be about the same over 5 years. I feel like an asshole driving something that does 20mpg though. But on the other hand, costs are pretty much embodied energy and scrapping this and getting slightly newer vehicle is "fractional" new vehicle purchase... and given the state of new vehicles and their lack of longevity, that seems to be twice as bad as they were in the 90s and noughties. I guess I might just have to fix this up and grimace while I fill the tank and try to remember this reasoning...

EditII: there's another 1000 hit in taxes, registering, taking a $200 hit in insurance for the rewriting, and other paperwork too... damn I can pimp this ride and still break even.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-06, 03:44:

I can see me getting a BMW in a year or two, there's some nice diesel X3 and X5 about to fall off the luxo barge 10 year price cliff, aided by their gas engine siblings blowing up when owners forget to put high octane gas in. Then I've got about 2 or 3 years before everyone goes "Hey, looks like the diesels aren't dying off so quick" and the price bobs back up a bit again. That's if the same logic doesn't also apply to the Cayenne diesel, it would be a hoot getting that, the un-Porsche, and having a "My Other Car is a Kia" bumper sticker on it.

You wont regret buying BMW.
I had a 740i for a while and that was amazing, and the 640d is just sublime.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-06, 14:26:

Especially at those times when it has a value of $500 and you need a $1000 repair,

nice post and just wanted to add this - cars often get abandoned when the repair costs more than the car - but that doesn't make sense to me if you already own it.

i understand that buying a $500 car needing $1000 repairs means spending $1500 but repairing a car you own for $1000 give two options: repair it for $1000 or buy a car for $1000 (an old car needing serious repair probably won't sell)

$1000 is unlikely to get you a car as good as your own just after you spend $1000 on it

i think part of it is the fear that it will cost a lot every year - but that isnt usually the case, and even if you keep it going for 5 more years at a total of $3000 repairs at least you are spreading the cost over those years

at this level the resale value of old cars is usually low, so a slightly newer one isn't going to hold its low value much more than the older even lower value

gerry wrote on 2024-06-07, 10:10:

nice post and just wanted to add this - cars often get abandoned when the repair costs more than the car - but that doesn't make […]
Show full quote

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-06, 14:26:

Especially at those times when it has a value of $500 and you need a $1000 repair,

nice post and just wanted to add this - cars often get abandoned when the repair costs more than the car - but that doesn't make sense to me if you already own it.

i understand that buying a $500 car needing $1000 repairs means spending $1500 but repairing a car you own for $1000 give two options: repair it for $1000 or buy a car for $1000 (an old car needing serious repair probably won't sell)

$1000 is unlikely to get you a car as good as your own just after you spend $1000 on it

i think part of it is the fear that it will cost a lot every year - but that isnt usually the case, and even if you keep it going for 5 more years at a total of $3000 repairs at least you are spreading the cost over those years

at this level the resale value of old cars is usually low, so a slightly newer one isn't going to hold its low value much more than the older even lower value

In the scope of:

I can spend 1000$ on a car that is on its last legs, and held together by god's love and duct tape-- OR, I can spend 1000$ on a new beater, that is in better shape, recoup 500$ of that by selling the old beater, and will cost me less to maintain for a few more years.

It makes fantastically more sense to ditch the 500$ value klunker.

As the adoption of electric vehicles improves though, I keep hoping for aftermarket 3rd party conversion kits to become things. (Similar to GreaseCar kits for diesel engine vehicles, so they can run on frenchfry grease, etc.)

Gutting the whole engine + Transmission + Half the drive chain, and retaining the brakes, and the lower half of the drive train, and the vehicle's frame and body, could allow that vehicle new life for much longer, assuming the rest is still in good condition, and would remove a lot of stuff that needs servicing.

Sadly, I keep getting disappointed by the status of that market. LiFePo batteries are getting less expensive, and have suitable durability and density (at least for light duty)-- but still, nobody selling suitable replacement assemblies designed to replace old fuel tanks, nor aftermarket direct drive motors with proper engine mounts.

Maybe in another decade...

What to do when its no longer worth it is a timeless classic question we ask ouselves.
Ive found when you get down to brass tacks its about that particular person can afford it. It really is that simple, and they are usually the owner of such a vehicle because they cant so the question answers itself. However sometimes you get people who own old cars and theyre just not worth it in money but the car is much loved and they can afford it so they do fix it.

If youre at the point where you are asking such questions then it begs the question should be really be thinking about owning a car, because the cost of a car isnt in the buying of it, but the running costs every year too.

The idea of an electric car sounds good up until you try and get rid of it.
I dont know of a single IC engined car that would cost you money when you get rid of it once its kaputt.
The first battery cars are now coming to the end of their lives and they are costing the owners money because you have to pay to recycle the battery properly. And thats a lot of battery.

gerry wrote on 2024-06-07, 10:10:

nice post and just wanted to add this - cars often get abandoned when the repair costs more than the car - but that doesn't make […]
Show full quote

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-06, 14:26:

Especially at those times when it has a value of $500 and you need a $1000 repair,

nice post and just wanted to add this - cars often get abandoned when the repair costs more than the car - but that doesn't make sense to me if you already own it.

i understand that buying a $500 car needing $1000 repairs means spending $1500 but repairing a car you own for $1000 give two options: repair it for $1000 or buy a car for $1000 (an old car needing serious repair probably won't sell)

$1000 is unlikely to get you a car as good as your own just after you spend $1000 on it

i think part of it is the fear that it will cost a lot every year - but that isnt usually the case, and even if you keep it going for 5 more years at a total of $3000 repairs at least you are spreading the cost over those years

at this level the resale value of old cars is usually low, so a slightly newer one isn't going to hold its low value much more than the older even lower value

Yah, particularly I never scrimp on new brakes all round and a decent set of tires, you get a very safe car for ~5 years. In fact I like buying cars that are getting "dumped" for needing this. One thing I don't like seeing though, is overheated brakes, if the brakes are bad because of that, I'll pass on the vehicle, because often it's because of riding the brakes and the transmission will have effectively double the miles on it from extra strain.

After last post, I remembered another economic factor for this Chrysler T&C... it's absurdly cheap on insurance... guess it's an old people car... it is thousands of bucks cheaper to run over a few years because of that. IDK if it's the same in other areas, some lucky bastards have very low insurance costs over all, but at local prices the difference is significant. i.e. something you'd think is middle of the road boring enough is typically 25% higher, something mildly spicy 50% higher, and "steal me please, I'm high horsepower, low safety rating, and preferred by hotheaded youths" is double. So yeah, our Kia Rio, 25% higher than this.

But yeah, some ppl are a bit dumb with the car value vs repair, many parts are just "due" at 10 plus years old, starter, alternator, radiator, exhaust... and I can't believe when ppl go, "I've just spend $2000 on starter, alternator, radiator, exhaust on my 12 year old car, and NOW it needs tires, gah, I'm done, I'm gonna get a 9 year old car instead." ... so giving up on a vehicle that's now probably very good for a bunch of years and resetting the "needs the 10 year parts soon" clock, idiocy. Great cars to find to buy though, "last straw" cars I call them, all fresh parts but for the one last thing that made it "not worth it".

wierd_w wrote on 2024-06-07, 10:19:

In the scope of: […]
Show full quote

gerry wrote on 2024-06-07, 10:10:

nice post and just wanted to add this - cars often get abandoned when the repair costs more than the car - but that doesn't make […]
Show full quote

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-06, 14:26:

Especially at those times when it has a value of $500 and you need a $1000 repair,

nice post and just wanted to add this - cars often get abandoned when the repair costs more than the car - but that doesn't make sense to me if you already own it.

i understand that buying a $500 car needing $1000 repairs means spending $1500 but repairing a car you own for $1000 give two options: repair it for $1000 or buy a car for $1000 (an old car needing serious repair probably won't sell)

$1000 is unlikely to get you a car as good as your own just after you spend $1000 on it

i think part of it is the fear that it will cost a lot every year - but that isnt usually the case, and even if you keep it going for 5 more years at a total of $3000 repairs at least you are spreading the cost over those years

at this level the resale value of old cars is usually low, so a slightly newer one isn't going to hold its low value much more than the older even lower value

In the scope of:

I can spend 1000$ on a car that is on its last legs, and held together by god's love and duct tape-- OR, I can spend 1000$ on a new beater, that is in better shape, recoup 500$ of that by selling the old beater, and will cost me less to maintain for a few more years.

It makes fantastically more sense to ditch the 500$ value klunker.

Yeah, maybe some areas that's more viable, I used to be like that through the 90s and noughties. Car market had barely got itself sorted out from 2008 disruptions when 2020 happened though, not to mention a bunch of recall buybacks (airbags structural failure etc) that had drained a lot of used cars from the market. In a wiiiiiide area around me now though, a $1000 car got picked up for scrap, a $1500 car should be, and the running ones start at $2-3ooo and you've got a hell of a lot of competition for them. Still maybe could drive the backroads if you've still got access to something to drive and find the rural oldboy put one on the side of the road with just $500 on it, but takes a lot of luck.

wierd_w wrote on 2024-06-07, 10:19:

As the adoption of electric vehicles improves though, I keep hoping for aftermarket 3rd party conversion kits to become things. […]
Show full quote

As the adoption of electric vehicles improves though, I keep hoping for aftermarket 3rd party conversion kits to become things. (Similar to GreaseCar kits for diesel engine vehicles, so they can run on frenchfry grease, etc.)

Gutting the whole engine + Transmission + Half the drive chain, and retaining the brakes, and the lower half of the drive train, and the vehicle's frame and body, could allow that vehicle new life for much longer, assuming the rest is still in good condition, and would remove a lot of stuff that needs servicing.

Sadly, I keep getting disappointed by the status of that market. LiFePo batteries are getting less expensive, and have suitable durability and density (at least for light duty)-- but still, nobody selling suitable replacement assemblies designed to replace old fuel tanks, nor aftermarket direct drive motors with proper engine mounts.

Maybe in another decade...

Actually, it is an idea in the back of my mind for the T&C van, that over a few years I can replace the power steering pump and other accessories with electric ones, then maybe put in a Toyota Highlander Hybrid back axle, and have a frankensteined hybrid, that I think could be got to run full electric over a city speed range.

At the moment you kind of have to get creative with repurposed parts from hybrids and electrics. There's a guy in New Zealand sticking a Leaf drivetrain in an old Austin Allegro. There is a lot more around to play with than there was 10 years ago. One part that was plentiful was the motor from the Civic hybrid, and it seemed like there were a number of transaxles where you could make an adaptor for the endplate and basically bolt that into another vehicles transaxle.... but that needs a decent shop to work in. The HP wasn't great for only motor full electric, but I think you can double them up more easily than other designs. If I had a shop and lifts and all the gadgets that make things easy, pickers and hoists and rotisseries etc, I'd wanna take a Triumph Spitfire shell, obtain the GT6 style hard top, and make a little electric runabout with that with the civic motor(s) in.

Anyway, I think the "kit" industry might have the same problem as the PHEV kit conversion industry... Which I think were narrow focus, and the failure to realise that the products had a very short "mass market" life, they'd get a rush of excitement orders from existing owners, then basing their business on that "We can sell thousands a year!!!!" failed to adjust to the tailoff trickle when the initial demand was satisfied. Many of them just flat out refused to be flexible in their offerings, whole kit or nothing, when there was interest in their battery pack for another vehicle, or their converter for a different one. Anyway, most of them seemed to tank in about 3 years. Really annoying when you can get one of the vehicles later and hear about this wonderful upgrade... that is unobtainium. So I think they need to go broader and keep their overheads low, several tailoff trickles for several vehicles will keep the lights on, selling kits piece by piece will keep the lights on. Offering a kit for one generation of one vehicle and refusing to work with ppl who want to adapt it to earlier or later gen, or different model, or buy the one ideal part for them, is not gonna keep the lights on.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-07, 13:55:

Yah, particularly I never scrimp on new brakes all round and a decent set of tires, you get a very safe car for ~5 years. In fact I like buying cars that are getting "dumped" for needing this. One thing I don't like seeing though, is overheated brakes, if the brakes are bad because of that, I'll pass on the vehicle, because often it's because of riding the brakes and the transmission will have effectively double the miles on it from extra strain.

After last post, I remembered another economic factor for this Chrysler T&C... it's absurdly cheap on insurance... guess it's an old people car... it is thousands of bucks cheaper to run over a few years because of that. IDK if it's the same in other areas, some lucky bastards have very low insurance costs over all, but at local prices the difference is significant. i.e. something you'd think is middle of the road boring enough is typically 25% higher, something mildly spicy 50% higher, and "steal me please, I'm high horsepower, low safety rating, and preferred by hotheaded youths" is double. So yeah, our Kia Rio, 25% higher than this.

But yeah, some ppl are a bit dumb with the car value vs repair, many parts are just "due" at 10 plus years old, starter, alternator, radiator, exhaust... and I can't believe when ppl go, "I've just spend $2000 on starter, alternator, radiator, exhaust on my 12 year old car, and NOW it needs tires, gah, I'm done, I'm gonna get a 9 year old car instead." ... so giving up on a vehicle that's now probably very good for a bunch of years and resetting the "needs the 10 year parts soon" clock, idiocy. Great cars to find to buy though, "last straw" cars I call them, all fresh parts but for the one last thing that made it "not worth it".

ah yes, insurance can take the replacement value of the car into the cost - another vote for old cars

Spending that money to replace things is often similar to and often less than the depreciation cost of buying a newer car too, not always factored in by those for whom maintenance costs are considered "too high"

wierd_w wrote on 2024-06-07, 10:19:

I can spend 1000$ on a car that is on its last legs, and held together by god's love and duct tape-- OR, I can spend 1000$ on a new beater, that is in better shape, recoup 500$ of that by selling the old beater, and will cost me less to maintain for a few more years.

It makes fantastically more sense to ditch the 500$ value klunker.

if guess if its a klunker it wont even get $500, so there's little if anything to recoup

it is often better to give up when the car actually is on its last legs, but only then. in my anecdotal experience and observation cars will last 20+ years if given essential maintenance and well over that if more carefully maintained and parts replaced well on time and so on, and they will go through several periods when the maintenance costs are reasonable again (as parts replaced wont need replacing again soon)

the older cars that are on their last legs are often that precisely because they were bought cheap and the owner either cannot afford or chooses not to afford to maintain them, meaning they age much more quickly than they would otherwise.

edit

Interesting development for those of you who are currently looking to buy a used car:

Prices of Used EVs Drop Below Used Gas Cars for the First Time

Car not go brrr brrr, car go, clank sproing tinkle..... crapped bits of spring on to the road... so now I gotta slap some quickstruts into it... yay.

@digger, though I'm surprised that the Nissan Leaf didn't drag them down sooner, those things were going for half price at a couple of years old before all the crazy in 2019.

Thinking about getting a Silverado EV work truck. One of the 24 module ones with like 400+ miles range.