VOGONS


First post, by ux-3

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It took me some time to realize that my ATX-PSU is acting up. This is a Delta PSU, main caps are by SAMXON. Date code 0504-6.

It sometimes fails to power up: absulutely nothing is happening if you close the power contact on the mainboard. Not even the PSU fan spins.
After a longer while, it will work again without issues. Then it reverts to the same behavior.

Is this a frequent defect with known cause?

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.

Reply 1 of 10, by Horun

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Could be the PSU or could be the 'power on' circuit of the motherboard. You can force the PSU on by using a short wire and jump from the green wire to nearest black wire....
if that does not work then it is the PSU

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 2 of 10, by BitWrangler

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Sounds a bit cap related, but also could be random cracked solder joint behavior too.

If immediately after a fail to start, you try blowing a hairdryer through it on warm and it will then start, it's probably the caps getting tired.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 3 of 10, by ux-3

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Horun wrote on 2024-07-28, 14:13:

...could be the 'power on' circuit of the motherboard.

I only realized it is likely the PSU after it happened with a second MB. The first MB (an ATX Super Socket 7) resurrected from the dead after I tested it with a different PSU.

I much rather lose a 20 year old PSU than a 25 year old ATX-SS7 mainboard... 😉

I have already inspected the PSU board from below, checked all solder joints of parts screwed to heat sinks. They often crack from thermal expansion. Didn't see anything.

Horun wrote on 2024-07-28, 14:13:

You can force the PSU on by using a short wire

I am going to try if this will work repeatedly. If it doesn't, it will donate the fan and retire.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.

Reply 4 of 10, by ux-3

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Further experiments suggest that this is an "incompatibility". I have several of these, and they all act like this. Placed in more modern machines, they work OK.
Kind of odd though.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.

Reply 5 of 10, by BitWrangler

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Ohhhh, I think it's the later ATX 2.xx standards not playing nice with ATX 1.xx standard stuff. Originally you see the board had to draw less than 10mA in standby mode, then pull down the power good, i.e. short it, to turn on. Now any logic that's gonna run off 10mA and pull down a pin is only gonna manage a few milliamps sink capability too. So the ATX 2.1 allowing for a beefy 2A can probably barely detect a low mA sink over the hum it's picking up off AC supply wiring. Might actually be a timing thing, hit the button at the peak of an AC cycle and it turns on, otherwise it doesn't.

So for this and later PSU compatibility in a robust manner, I guess we need to think of a way to amp up the powergood pulldown to reliably fire up later PSUs from older ATX standard boards. Possibly a capacitor could do it, provide a kick, but you'd need to charge/drain it through a resistor to limit it to something that doesn't back EMF the board logic too hard. This solution would mean you could only plug in the PSU, flip the physical on switch then have to wait a few mins to reliably fire the board as the capacitor would need to charge up off the PG line... IDK, spitballing this as I go, ppl will probably see problems with it.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 6 of 10, by Horun

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Agree it has to do with the ATX spec. Many older boards (1990's) seem to have issues with many ATX 2.2x and 2.3x spec PSU but not with 1.1 or most 2.0x and some 2.1x spec PSU.
Some newer ATX 2.3x spec do work proper on older boards but it can be hit and miss based on my personal testing of the EVGA 650 BQ on Pentium, P2 and P3 boards...

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 7 of 10, by akimmet

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The simplest solution would be a power transistor switching in a lower value pull down resistor. Using a capacitor doesn't make sense. Especially since there is a 5v standby that is always on for power.

Reply 8 of 10, by ux-3

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I will just use another PSU.
What kind of 5V power use would I have to provision for with a pentium1 mmx, a voodoo1 and a Riva 128?

I found the P1 mmx to be specced to 17W. Voodoo1 at 15W. Riva128 at 4 W.

The compatible Corsair PSU I have will do 5V/20A, aka 100W. Other voltage rails have what is left to 450W. So if anything gets tight, it is the 5V rail.
I searched this forum, I see others running similar machines on 90W PSUs (total). I guess mine should do.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.

Reply 9 of 10, by BitWrangler

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Typically the 5V can eat into the 3.3V's share a bit too, that's why some PSU list 5V and 3.3V combined max.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 10 of 10, by akimmet

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Here is a quick doodle of what a buffer for the PWR_ON signal might look like.
This is not tested! I'm merely offering this as potential starting point if anyone wants to further investigate.