VOGONS


First post, by Exploit

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A big problem with old computers is connecting modern storage devices such as SSDs to them. Even if you manage to connect modern SSDs to an old computer using an IDE to SATA adapter or SATA controller for the PCI bus, you still have the problem that TRIM is usually not supported. This would require support for the ATA/ATAPI Command Set version 2 (short name: ACS-2) or later. And you can't get that with an IDE to SATA adapter on and old computer or with an old SATA controller in PCI version for old machines. Available SATA PCI controllers are usually too old for this. (See her for SATA PCI Controller with SiL3114 chipset Re: Silicon Image 3114 BIOS flash ) and motherboards whose IDE controllers support ACS-2 are so new that they usually already have native SATA connectors.

With phase change memory (PCM, In this context I now use the abbreviation PCM.), TRIM support would not be required. A PCM device may endure around 100 million write cycles. All that would be needed would be a PCM module with an 40 pin IDE connector at an affordable price. Since the software for old DOS computers usually doesn't require much storage space itself, you don't even need a large storage device. An IDE-based PCM storage device with 200 MiB to 3000 MiB storage capacity would be more than sufficient for DOS. It just needs to be affordable for lets say 55 to 100 dollars and work with all old IDE controllers, from ATA-1 to 8. This would still be significantly more expensive per megabyte than an SSD, but it would work and it doesn't require TRIM. Trim support would not be required for either the operating system or the IDE controller hardware. For a Windows 95/98/Me-based computer, larger storage devices would be necessary. But even here, 20 to 100 GiB could be sufficient.

PCM chips are currently still in development and are still very expensive, and the SSD market also seems to be the target. In order to be competitive with SSDs, you would have to move into price ranges where a gigabyte costs just a few cents. In the retro sector, however, this would not be necessary in my opinion. What's your opinion about that?

Reply 1 of 7, by BitWrangler

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There's a miraculous new memory tech and miraculous new battery chemistry every 6 months, we only ever have about 10% of them reappear again after a decade of development. Buy some Texas Instruments stock, real sure that bubble memory will take off any day now.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 2 of 7, by Exploit

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-09-19, 23:56:

There's a miraculous new memory tech and miraculous new battery chemistry every 6 months, we only ever have about 10% of them reappear again after a decade of development. Buy some Texas Instruments stock, real sure that bubble memory will take off any day now.

Stop trolling!

You could already buy PCM:
https://www.digikey.de/en/products/detail/mic … 3ESFC0E/2176526

The first chips were just too expensive, the storage capacity per chip was too low and because of that it was never available as a module for the IDE connection. But the technology is not obsolete, research is still ongoing. High storage densities per chip seem plausible and this will also reduce the price and if the price is right, it will be produced.

Reply 3 of 7, by Tiido

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Chips are low density and quite expensive, it is why I have not used them in any design of mine yet but I'd love to...

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 5 of 7, by BitWrangler

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Exploit wrote on 2024-09-20, 00:06:
BitWrangler wrote on 2024-09-19, 23:56:

There's a miraculous new memory tech and miraculous new battery chemistry every 6 months, we only ever have about 10% of them reappear again after a decade of development. Buy some Texas Instruments stock, real sure that bubble memory will take off any day now.

Stop trolling!

Nothing but truth.... you could already buy bubble memory but

The first chips were just too expensive, the storage capacity per chip was too low ...

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 6 of 7, by rasz_pl

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BinaryDemon wrote on 2024-09-20, 00:31:

Modern SSD’s all have built in garbage collection. Even if your OS doesn’t support TRIM, you would be fine.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/ask-a … eed-trim-right/

Garbage collection wont help you, sooner or later whole drive will have all pages touched at least once and as far as SSD firmware is concerned they all hold data it cant delete.

What is so special about ACS-2 commands that they cant be pushed thru IDE-SATA bridges? Does anyone know the low level details? I had Trim working using DOS based tools, and using IDE-SATA bridges.

https://github.com/raszpl/FIC-486-GAC-2-Cache-Module for AT&T Globalyst
https://github.com/raszpl/386RC-16 memory board
https://github.com/raszpl/440BX Reference Design adapted to Kicad
https://github.com/raszpl/Zenith_ZBIOS MFM-300 Monitor

Reply 7 of 7, by Tiido

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In theory a bridge shouldn't care one bit about what commands are passing through it since it only increases logic requirements in the chip... but there are some that for whatever reason filter out SMART commands and those probably filter out TRIM too...

TRIM is definitely essential for longetivity of the drive and data alignment will also help. The sectors on modern drives are fragile and you want as few erase cycles as possible, you only get ~1000 range per sector on TLC/QLC. Older 2 level cells gave 10k or so, and single level ones are usually quoted to give 100k range. NOR flash on the other hard has usually 1 million range quoted in most datasheets I see, with triple digit data retention rather than 2 or even totally unspecified.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜