VivienM wrote on 2024-10-06, 16:38:

Pentium MMX was where I was leaning. Huge Intel fanboy, never had a Pentium MMX (or any Pentium) on a main computer. But... maybe other things make more sense.

This is a very good choice. You can slow down a Pentium MMX with ease to 386 and 486 speeds by using SetMul to toggle the test registers, and by turning off L1 and L2 cache. Note that L2 cache needs to be turned off from the BIOS, so make sure your motherboard has that setting (some OEM boards don't).

AT scares me. I have never had a full AT system (had large OEM systems in the mid-90s with PS/2 ports), don't have AT keyboards, etc. There seem to be some ATX super socket 7 boards that seem promising, but... pricy.

There are also Socket 7 (non-super) boards with an ATX power supply connector. My Soyo SY-5BT is one example. Alternatively, you may be able to get an adapter and use an ATX power supply.

thinking a SD/CF to IDE adapter for storage

There's a front loading CF to IDE adapter from StarTech that fits nicely into the second 3.5" slot below the floppy drive. If you do go that route, I would suggest getting an industrial grade CF card to save you from a bunch of headaches.

I would also suggest looking for a motherboard that has PS2 mouse support, with the pinout clearly labeled in the manual. Using a serial ball mouse is something I always hated, but that's just me.

There are plenty of baby-AT boards with ATX power headers that support PS/2 add-on headers for mice, and AT keyboard connectors can easily be converted to PS/2 as they are electrically identical.

I recommend Asus' TX97-XE, 430TX chipset for non SS7 products, which are stable and guaranteed. I saw a $117 chipset on eBay. I recommend ALI for the motherboard of SS7, similar to GA-5AX which are also very good

If you want something shiny new and more retro than modern, I saw a case on Ali Express, for mATX I think, which was actually listed as wall mounted but looked like it would be a good desktop with some feet on. Was kinda hard edged and basic though.

A mATX board that might be around cheap and do alright with MMX, not if you want AGP though is the BCM IN5598

But yeah, it's a case of pay a fortune for AGP board get AGP card cheaper, or get PCI board cheaper, pay a fortune for "good" PCI card. ... there's basic onboard stuff on a lot of mATX format though, so you can play 95 down DOS stuff and worry about 3D later.

edit: Think it was this one I was seeing a few months back, there was someone had one cheaper though, keep clicking around maybe you'll see it... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004071281411.html

EditII: Micron ClientPro MTA was a machine with Intel Tucson ATX board in with onboard S3 graphics, have a half wrecked one myself, but I think that would fit your wants if there was a clean one around. Anyway, the Intel Tucson board is probably worth looking for too. Might need a lot of scrubbing with magic eraser though if mine is anything to go by, does not appear to be yellowing much, just collects scuffs and grime.

Pentium MMX is probably the best choice for a pure DOS/Win 3.11 machine. A Pentium MMX 200 or 233 has enough power for later 90s DOS games while being easily throttled down to 386/486 speeds for early 90s games.

AMD K6-2+/III+ is another option, but tend to be rare and expensive these days.

For storage, CF cards work great in my experience. I typically use 4GB cards with later Pentiums since it's easy to do a 2x 2GB partitions for DOS and 4GB is plenty of storage for that era. CF cards are also great for having multiple operating systems, if you wanted to have one with DOS and another with Win95, for example.

For video, I'd consider S3 Virge if you want broad compatibility, or a Matrox Millennium/Mystique if you want good video quality, good late 90s performance, and aren't worried about some compatibility trade-offs with earlier games.

I just built myself a DOS 6.22 build I'm quite happy with. After a bit of back and forth on here with the fine VOGONS folks, along with the inevitable issues that popup with old hardware, what I ended up with works quite well for my needs. Here is the info just in case it helps you with your build!

CPU: IBM Branded Cyrix PR166+ (6X86 L)
MB: Asus TX97-XE (Socket 7 - Plenty of expansion)
RAM: 32MB PC100 SDRAM
Video: S3 Virge/DX 4MB (PCI)
Sound: AWE64 Value CT4520 and OPTi 32C930 (Both ISA)
Storage: CF to IDE (2GB)

All crammed into a modern case using a modern power supply and displaying on a early Dell 4:3 LCD monitor. If you're really bored, you can check the build out over on my blog.

https://theclassicgeek.blogspot.com/2024/02/a … s-3x-retro.html

I chose the parts I did to get the maximum compatibility I could get for the best price I could get at the time. I got the motherboard free, just had to pay shipping, and that's one of the reasons that actually prompted me to do the build. The rest of the parts I hobbled together from eBay. I've always used Creative sound cards, so getting the OPTi gives me a chance to play with something different, and I run both at the same time.

StriderTR wrote on 2024-10-06, 21:36:

MB: Asus TX97-XE (Socket 7 - Plenty of expansion)

So I searched eBay for this board after a previous person suggested it - there seem to be some US sellers or some Chinese sellers, all at CAD$4xx+ incl. shipping.

Am I missing something, or is it one of those things where you should try to have an alert for months and hope that eBay gives you the alert in time before someone snatches up the cheap ones? Or are there plenty of cheap ones from US sellers who won't ship internationally?

Also, I've noticed many sellers seem to sell CPU/RAM/mobo together. Wonder why that seems to be the case...

Just want to point this out again (in case the price matters). Searching for a specific board is often a sure way to pay premium prices (often 200$ plus). The opposite strategy is to just search for "old PC". Usually the design and labels still tell you if you are in the right timeframe. In that case you can usually get away with as little as 50$ or less. (+ the excitement that you may found something rare inside the machine). On the downside, some of these machines may not work. But since you are already on board of the Vogons fleet it will be fixed

VivienM wrote on 2024-10-06, 21:40:

So I searched eBay for this board after a previous person suggested it - there seem to be some US sellers or some Chinese seller […]
Show full quote

StriderTR wrote on 2024-10-06, 21:36:

MB: Asus TX97-XE (Socket 7 - Plenty of expansion)

So I searched eBay for this board after a previous person suggested it - there seem to be some US sellers or some Chinese sellers, all at CAD$4xx+ incl. shipping.

Am I missing something, or is it one of those things where you should try to have an alert for months and hope that eBay gives you the alert in time before someone snatches up the cheap ones? Or are there plenty of cheap ones from US sellers who won't ship internationally?

Also, I've noticed many sellers seem to sell CPU/RAM/mobo together. Wonder why that seems to be the case...

Honestly, if I had to do my build from scratch, I would probably not have gone with the TX97 simply due to the price. It's a great board in my opinion, but right now prices on so many boards are just crazy. I would have just went with the cheapest board I could find that supported the hardware I wanted to use. I would do more generic searches, like "Socket 7 motherboard" and see what I get.

Like I said, my TX97 was free, I just paid for it to be shipped. Being free, it had issues I discovered after the fact, but was able to correct them. Even then, mine came with RAM and the CPU I listed above. I do have a couple AMD processors that are much faster, but I opted to keep the installed PR166+ because it's more than enough power for the games I want to play on it.

My suggestion is, if you can find one in your price range, it's a solid choice for what you're wanting to build. If not, there are a lot of other options out there, just see what you can get in your price range that fits your vision. There are people on here much more knowledgeable on the pros and cons of a wide variety of boards than myself.

I'm not sure if it's an option where you live, but I recently reached out to my local recycling center to see if I can have them contract me when they happen to come across any of the "old hardware" I'm looking for, we'll see how that goes. If you have one in your area, perhaps that's an option you could look into as well.

StriderTR wrote on 2024-10-06, 22:20:

Honestly, if I had to do my build from scratch, I would probably not have gone with the TX97 simply due to the price. It's a great board in my opinion, but right now prices on so many boards are just crazy. I would have just went with the cheapest board I could find that supported the hardware I wanted to use. I would do more generic searches, like "Socket 7 motherboard" and see what I get.

Agree. There are some MBs that are more sought after and they tend to carry a huge premium especially in ebay. You can still effectively build fully comparable system around some much cheaper alternative for a fraction of price.

It is like with those dual cpu slot 1 440BX motherboards. They cost an arm and leg nowadays, but if you want to just build a good 440BX system, you certainly don’t need one.

StriderTR wrote on 2024-10-06, 21:36:

I just built myself a DOS 6.22 build I'm quite happy with. After a bit of back and forth on here with the fine VOGONS folks, alo […]
Show full quote

I just built myself a DOS 6.22 build I'm quite happy with. After a bit of back and forth on here with the fine VOGONS folks, along with the inevitable issues that popup with old hardware, what I ended up with works quite well for my needs. Here is the info just in case it helps you with your build!

CPU: IBM Branded Cyrix PR166+ (6X86 L)
MB: Asus TX97-XE (Socket 7 - Plenty of expansion)
RAM: 32MB PC100 SDRAM
Video: S3 Virge/DX 4MB (PCI)
Sound: AWE64 Value CT4520 and OPTi 32C930 (Both ISA)
Storage: CF to IDE (2GB)

All crammed into a modern case using a modern power supply and displaying on a early Dell 4:3 LCD monitor. If you're really bored, you can check the build out over on my blog.

https://theclassicgeek.blogspot.com/2024/02/a … s-3x-retro.html

I chose the parts I did to get the maximum compatibility I could get for the best price I could get at the time. I got the motherboard free, just had to pay shipping, and that's one of the reasons that actually prompted me to do the build. The rest of the parts I hobbled together from eBay. I've always used Creative sound cards, so getting the OPTi gives me a chance to play with something different, and I run both at the same time.

Appreciate the article as I've been playing around with the idea of building a dos only system which would be a first. I have the parts for a upper
end system (233mhz slot one P2 on a Asus P3B-F mobo) but that'll be too fast for a bunch of games.

Agree with mostly what's already been said.

If you're a member of team Intel, then a MMX is definitely what you want for dos games.
Problem is it's a very popular platform so motherboards are already expensive, I wouldn't limit myself to 1 specific board, rather leave it to fate and go with what is available in your price range.
End of the day it's not going to make that much of a difference.

Dos isn't overly demanding for dos and good cards can still be found cheap.
Basically you want something with good compatibility Gona's table in invaluable here. https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

A MMX will also have enough grunt to play around with some of the early 3d titles if you wanted to go down that path. (something like the S3 Virge gives both)
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)

AWE64 is a good choice for late dos IMHO, but then this was the card I always wanted growing up and only have now in my later years. I'm still happy with it.

buckeye wrote on 2024-10-07, 18:16:

Appreciate the article as I've been playing around with the idea of building a dos only system which would be a first. I have the parts for a upper
end system (233mhz slot one P2 on a Asus P3B-F mobo) but that'll be too fast for a bunch of games.

I was about to say another budget option (keeping with Intel) is a slot 1 or socket 370, with slower CPU. where you are all but guaranteed will be ATX
Because it's a dos build you can get a cheap budget board that lacks AGP or depending on may even have something suitable onboard, but you'll still want an ISA slot for the sound card.
It's true though, some games may have issues with something so fast.

VivienM wrote on 2024-10-06, 16:38:

- Pentium MMX was where I was leaning. Huge Intel fanboy, never had a Pentium MMX (or any Pentium) on a main computer. But... maybe other things make more sense.

Socket 7 MB with 430 series PCI chipset (FX/HX/VX/TX) then. Slot 1 with 440BX would be fine too unless you need it for speed sensitive games, namely those by Origin Systems, Inc.

- I would like something that 'looks' pretty. Lots of pre-P4 systems I see on eBay are just... disgusting looking. Dirty, massively yellowed plastics, missing drive bay covers, etc. Might want a NOS or period-incorrect case if I end up building something.

Just look for any ATX case that fits your aesthetics. Most Baby AT MB with ATX power connector can fit within an ATX case but with I/O shield unoccupied. If dust or foreign objects is a concern then you could cover it with adhesive tape or cardboard. Not pretty, but it works.

- AT scares me. I have never had a full AT system (had large OEM systems in the mid-90s with PS/2 ports), don't have AT keyboards, etc. There seem to be some ATX super socket 7 boards that seem promising, but... pricy.

The AT keyboard connector on a Baby AT MB can be easily converted with a passive converter. What you really need would be a PS/2 mouse connector or at very least a header on PCB. Some Baby AT MB from OEM had already adopted PS/2 keyboard connectors way before the ATX standard but most retail Baby AT MB still retained AT keyboard connectors.

- would ideally like an ISA slot for an AWE64. Love all things Creative Labs and have never had an AWE card.

That should be the least concern as ISA slots were readily available on any Socket 7 era MB.

- physically smaller would be nice, but while there used to be smaller businessy desktops with ISA slots and soldered S3 video chips, clean examples don't seem to exist anymore. And microATX was... not really a thing in this era... it seems.

ATX appeared as early as 430FX era and looked promising but had not dominated the market yet, so there were small form factors like LPX and NLX, with AT PSU and riser boards. It might be fun to tinker around those non-ATX SFF if you could find one from a relative's basement/attic for free or a neighbor's garage/yard sale with a very low price, but I wouldn't call it practical if you had to buy one from an online seller. If you want minimal hassles then ATX or ATX-compatible Baby AT are still your best choices today.

- do not want any kind of ATI Rage II graphics. Sorry still have the trauma from their buggy Win95 drivers.

IMHO S3 graphic cards were the most appropriate for this era, unless you want an AGP card to be coupled with an SS7 board and CPU.

- thinking a SD/CF to IDE adapter for storage

That's almost a second nature to any retro hobbyist today. 😉 A front loading one would be the best, followed by back loading types. Forget about pure internals unless you need one for laptops.

Honestly, writing this out makes me think a super socket 7 ATX system is the closest thing to the answer despite the size. With... what processor?

If size does matter, there WERE some microATX SS7 designs, but even TRW has only 13 of them, 9 has photos. For the record, there are only 80 models of SS7 in ATX but 117 in Baby AT. Likewise, there were many more 430TX boards in Baby AT (172) than in ATX (115). Baby AT finally faded away by the time Pentium II became mainstream.

My own DOS rig:

MB: Asus TXP4 (430TX chipset, Baby AT form factor with ATX connector)
CPU: Intel Pentium-MMX 233 MHz
RAM: one 64 MB SDRAM
Video: Gainward CARDEXpert SG4 Pro PCI (S3 Savage4 Pro 16 MB)
HDD: CF to IDE adapter (back loading)
ODD: Asus 52x PATA CD-ROM
PSU: a cheap 400W but with ample +5V rail at 35A
Case: a generic used ATX case

chinny22 wrote on 2024-10-07, 23:32:

If you're a member of team Intel, then a MMX is definitely what you want for dos games.
Problem is it's a very popular platform so motherboards are already expensive, I wouldn't limit myself to 1 specific board, rather leave it to fate and go with what is available in your price range.

Well, my loyalties are... flexible... when it comes to retro systems. Already built a 98SE machine on AMD/VIA, which is something I would never have touched back in the day.

And I suppose there's something a bit ironic about a dude who wouldn't touch non-Intel on a modern system in almost 25 years having mostly non-Intel retro systems... 😀

Are there any non-Intel options here, though, other than the somewhat obvious K6-2s on SS7?

VivienM wrote on 2024-10-08, 01:53:

Are there any non-Intel options here, though, other than the somewhat obvious K6-2s on SS7?

VIA C3 is another option, although that will be the most expensive option given their desirability due to flexible throttling for DOS gaming.

AMD K5 and Cyrix are some non Intel choices....the Cyrix 6x86mx has MMX but not the K5

dormcat wrote on 2024-10-07, 23:33:

Most Baby AT MB with ATX power connector can fit within an ATX case but with I/O shield unoccupied. If dust or foreign objects is a concern then you could cover it with adhesive tape or cardboard. Not pretty, but it works.

There are IO shields specifically for AT motherboards in ATX cases. Don't know how common they are these days, but they are another option.

(Or I suppose just buy a blank IO shield and punch out a hole for the keyboard.)

What's weird is that you might be able to get an MMX laptop cheaper than an MMX desktop, at least at eBay prices, but you don't get to choose your soundcard.

Somewhere in my stacks o crap have an Asus SP98AGP-X non-audio R1.02 (is ATX) sitting idle since 2020. If I lived in CA would let you play with it but shipping from US is horrid.
Guess I should look thru my other stuff and see what might work for a beginner in Pentium but expert in computers 😀