I used to run a Kayak XW 6/450, which was similar. It used the 440GX chipset.
With that chipset the maximum module size was 512MB. But the HP BIOS was incredibly specific about what type of module was required. It took a while before I figured it out.
It would only work with the most archaic modules that had 36x 4-bit RAM ICs (32Mx4 chip type) on them. These probably predated the existence of 32Mx8 RAM chips. Even though a module with 18x 8-bit chips (32Mx8 chip type) was supported by the 440GX chipset, the HP BIOS refused to work with them, even with the last BIOS installed.
This was even more deceiving because the only way a module with 36x chips on it could physically fit in the machine was if the chips were stacked. At the time I didn't know that kind of construction existed.

I can imagine it's possible that the 440BX versions of these machines could have a similar issue, where it might be looking specifically for the earliest 256MB modules with 36x 16Mx4 chips, and maybe won't work with the much more common modules that have 18x 16Mx8 chips.
Otherwise, it could be some pedantic detail with how the SPD chip is programmed that the HP BIOS doesn't like.
If you haven't already, also test if those IBM modules are working on a normal, sane 440BX system that's not designed to be difficult. 😀

I remember the First HP Kayak I helped setup in 1997 was for an education center I was working at.
The instructor could not get the sound working or networking so he called me to work on it.
I got it fix and working.
I later worked at another company and I recommended they purchase some HP Kayaks XU’s for a 24/7/365 mission critical
Business production operation.
The Kayak’s were Rock Solid Reliable.
Never gave us any problems
So I was hooked and purchased 4 as our Family home computers and 3 more for other Family members.
These were great computers and lasted from Win98, WinNT 4.0 and thru Win2000.
They Never Broke down. Very Reliable.
This is How HP should build computer today.
I have been using HP workstations ever since.
HP “Z” Class workstations is what I use at home.
So reliable. Never any problems. And they still work from Win-7 thru Win-10 and Win-11.

Yeah, I am pretty much hooked on HP workstations for performance and Value, Reliability and Longevity.
Versatility, Endurance, Easy repair, Upgradability, etc……They Check all the boxes.

Today I use the HP z440 at home with Xeon E5-2697A CPU.
16-cores, 32-threads……its the Best Value computer on eBay.
I buy from American computer server and workstation resellers on eBay.

shamino wrote on 2024-10-17, 00:05:

Otherwise, it could be some pedantic detail with how the SPD chip is programmed that the HP BIOS doesn't like.
If you haven't already, also test if those IBM modules are working on a normal, sane 440BX system that's not designed to be difficult. 😀

For those not experienced with hardware designed for the enterprise it sure sounds 'designed to be difficult'. Believe me, it is not.
You would just call your reseller, tell them RAM part numbers if you know or your machine part number if you don't
(and they would look up ram p/n in service handbook). You would just purchase HP memory for your specific machine.
And you would do this for years after purchase as long as machine is not EOL.

Any compatibility there is with non-HP parts would be a coincidence and a bonus, not a given. The fact that those workstations
have ram slots of standard type is just because it was easier for HP to produce this way. They could do just the same way as IBM did
for PS/2 model 80 with planar memory slots if they wanted.

In enterprise world (where stability and uniformity matters a lot) 1.5x -2x price is all right. You would not want to put
memory from different vendor to save a few bucks just to troubleshoot some crash during important report generation or
rendering. When you have hundreds or thousands machines and you do not want them to be unique,
you want them to be as standard and as vendor-supported as possible.

It is similar to car world, you would not put a Mercedes-Benz part in your BMW.

It all seems insane to the people that didn't have a large company IT experience. If you have to
troubleshoot just one or two of such machines it is more likely to leave you with sour taste
than to grow appreciation of such hardware in you.

Youtubers call those machines 'prebuilt' now. It is extremely far from the truth to call them that.
Those machines are designed as a whole, not assembled as collection of parts. Memory compatibility
is one consequence of such design, but another consequence is MaxiLife LCD screen that has entire
dedicated separate I2C bus on motherboard to work. Planned cable management is often another.

I run a IBM Netfinity 5000 and it is in a similar league with the Kayak: Dual P III 750, 3 x 256 MB + 1 x 128 MB PC-100 registered on a ServerWorks II LE chipset.
Boy, that thing is a tank! Built sturdy as hell and no hickups.
I installed Windows NT4, added 2 x Diamond FireGL 4000 (which probably have been installed in HP machines before) and now try to get older CAD software to get a real retro workstation feeling.
Actually there is even a AutoCad R13 dongle slowly finding its way to me.

Beside its noise level (the three SCSI HDDs and the two worn graphic card fans add to that) these machines are really built to last!

I like those old used enterprise machines: they might not run the newest games, but they are normally overlooked by gamers and speed fetishists, so you can get them cheap.
My wife has now a Fujitsu Celsius W520 Power (found for 50,-€ years ago) and I got a HP ML350 Gen 6 even for free.
With just a few minor upgrades from spare parts I had lying around or could source very cheap these machines are still very capable even 10 years after their prime time.
Additionally it is very easy to make maintenance: parts a mostly just clicked in, no sharp edges to cut yourself, etc.

So coming back to the OP:
These dual P II / P III are a very capable systems in the Windows NT, 2000 and early XP area.
I actually love them so much that I have 5 different ones. They have a certain place in my heart as I remember my first ASUS P2B-DS, which I built while I was still rocking my Athlon XP 2800 system.
It was not the speed but the smoothness of the dual system. Until then I actually was not aware that my single core did have those very small "thinking breaks" when a background task went to work.
From a productivity standpoint the dual P III 1000 was much more pleasant to work with, even though it could not compete with the Athlon when considering gaming.

So enjoy your Dualie !

I agree these old enterprise systems have a special charm -- the Visualize P-Class Kayaks were certainly built like a tank if not slightly overengineered. The "smart" airflow system with multiple fans and covers makes working in them slightly tricky however.

Got the 3*256MB ECC registered IBM RAM finally to work after reseating multiple times. The BIOS memory test is super slow however.

Exchanged the two IDE HDDs due to noise for a modern SATA SSD + adapter. The P500 refuses to boot from it though, might need to try another PATA-SATA adapter.
The integrated floppy drive is kaput it seems, making OS installations a bit picky.

Looking forward to finally running Win 2000 on the 2*PIII Katmais.

The HP Kayaks of this time were marketed as an x86 Wintel alternative to their PA-RISC workstations. The most powerful Windows NT-based, "IBM-compatible" (standard expansion slots, etc) workstations they had to offer. A customer who didn't want UNIX workstations would get steered to the Kayaks. They offered essentially the same Visualize OpenGL accelerators as those PA-RISC systems.

Dwaco wrote on 2024-10-18, 10:59:

For those not experienced with hardware designed for the enterprise it sure sounds 'designed to be difficult'. Believe me, it is […]
Show full quote

shamino wrote on 2024-10-17, 00:05:

Otherwise, it could be some pedantic detail with how the SPD chip is programmed that the HP BIOS doesn't like.
If you haven't already, also test if those IBM modules are working on a normal, sane 440BX system that's not designed to be difficult. 😀

For those not experienced with hardware designed for the enterprise it sure sounds 'designed to be difficult'. Believe me, it is not.
You would just call your reseller, tell them RAM part numbers if you know or your machine part number if you don't
(and they would look up ram p/n in service handbook). You would just purchase HP memory for your specific machine.
And you would do this for years after purchase as long as machine is not EOL.

Then when I bought it, the HP site offered to recycle it. 😀
I agree HP wanted their business customers to buy their parts from HP. Machines like this can have some confusing issues you wouldn't run into on a more mainstream system. IBM, Compaq, and Intel workstations/server boards I've used can be similarly annoying.

In the case of the Kayak I've used, I don't really think it was *intentionally* designed to be difficult, but it wasn't designed to *not* be difficult either. There just wasn't much care or testing put into it's behavior with end-user upgrades. If HP had a part in their inventory that would work, then they considered that good enough. I don't think the machine is intentionally hostile to end-user upgrades, but it didn't get the level of compatibility testing that mainstream PCs get. It was too low volume for it to ever get much attention on it's deficiencies, even with 5 BIOS updates released (on my model anyway).
There was also some frustrating behavior with a 3rd party ATA controller I installed. Fixable, but the solution wasn't entirely satisfactory.

This isn't unique to HP. It's a general comment about "high end" hardware. It likes to be difficult, whether due to intent or due to lack of testing. Therefore these type of systems can be misleading when you test a piece of hardware. If something (a stick of RAM for example) appears not to work in a system like this, test it in something that's designed and tested to be highly compatible and end-user friendly. Until then you don't really know whether to blame the weirdness of the system or the part.

The first time I tried to upgrade the RAM on my Kayak I used Crucial memory that was "guaranteed" for the exact system. 2 modules from them were both incompatible, Crucial didn't know why so I had to return them. They were chipset compatible, the initial memory test passed, but then the BIOS would freeze with an error at the end of the POST process. HP had no documentation of the issue. 1-2 years later the source of the issue became apparent when I got some memory on eBay that did work, and compared with what didn't. I doubt the collective of HP was even conscious of it, it was below their radar or one of their BIOS updates would have addressed it. HP could have saved money by using later-gen modules that were cheaper to build, and by consolidating the SKU with the upgrades they were selling for other systems.

I had a couple other BIOS-related problems also, flaws that wouldn't have shipped on a model that was vetted for consumers.
Despite the quirkiness though, these systems are physically well built and very reliable. It's the only system I've seen that provided a proper support bracket for long/heavy video cards (proprietary mounting point, but not HP's fault there was no standard for this). Every fastener is Torx, which I love. It also has excellent hard drive cooling, and cooling for the expansion card area.
It's the only motherboard I've seen that says Made in France. It also doesn't have a single electrolytic cap on it, it's all tantalums and ceramics. There are electrolytics on the VRMs but those are socketed. The huge number of tantalums worries me a bit, I need to remember to power it up once in a while.
If I ever feel like playing with my Voodoo 3, I'll probably put it in the Kayak because I trust it will be safe in there.

VLIW wrote:

Got the 3*256MB ECC registered IBM RAM finally to work after reseating multiple times. The BIOS memory test is super slow however.

Excellent that it got working.
Yeah, I was frustrated with how long it took my system to boot with large amounts of RAM. Unfortunately it seems there's no way to turn the RAM test off (at least on mine there isn't). I suppose somebody at HP thought making it mandatory was a good idea, but I doubt the test is effective.

shamino wrote on 2024-10-19, 06:03:

Despite the quirkiness though, these systems are physically well built and very reliable. It's the only system I've seen that provided a proper support bracket for long/heavy video cards (proprietary mounting point, but not HP's fault there was no standard for this). Every fastener is Torx, which I love. It also has excellent hard drive cooling, and cooling for the expansion card area.
...
Unfortunately it seems there's no way to turn the RAM test off (at least on mine there isn't). I suppose somebody at HP thought making it mandatory was a good idea, but I doubt the test is effective.

There is no way to disable the memory tests, and the BIOS has other quirks too that are slightly annoying, like multiple prompts and screens after changing a hard drive. At least I had the latest BIOS HK.W1.02 already installed.

Now it works but I can't get the SSD (via PATA adapter) to boot. It's writable when booting another OS, but the Visualize P500 refuses to boot it. ("Operating system not found")

Will now install Windows 2000 on a Compact Flash and use the SSD as D: data storage for it.

I could not find it in any of the documentation but I think this computer was built in consideration of the hearing impaired or to be put in loud places. Because the LCD screen will display a “Happy Face” like a Mac when it is operating okay and a “Sad Face” when something is wrong with hardware.
A visual indication of its operating status. 😀

VLIW wrote on 2024-10-19, 05:52:

Got the 3*256MB ECC registered IBM RAM finally to work after reseating multiple times. The BIOS memory test is super slow however.

Congrats!

Exchanged the two IDE HDDs due to noise for a modern SATA SSD + adapter. The P500 refuses to boot from it though, might need to try another PATA-SATA adapter.
The integrated floppy drive is kaput it seems, making OS installations a bit picky.

It tells you:
"Master, wtf are you doing? I want SCSI disks."

P.S. Those are supposed to be noisy. I was reading reviews of 15k rpm disks of then-new 146 Gb generation and they were discussing that noise level is OK for workstation use. I understand that you don't want to hear 15k rpm disks, but come on, at least 7200 should be OK.

P.P.S. Fans in my Sun Blade 1000 have label "Silent Fan". I am not entirely sure if I should laugh about this joke on their part or imagine what non-silent fans sounded like.

I agree HP wanted their business customers to buy their parts from HP. Machines like this can have some confusing issues you wouldn't run into on a more mainstream system. IBM, Compaq, and Intel workstations/server boards I've used can be similarly annoying.

The first time I tried to upgrade the RAM on my Kayak I used Crucial memory that was "guaranteed" for the exact system. 2 modules from them were both incompatible, Crucial didn't know why so I had to return them. They were chipset compatible, the initial memory test passed, but then the BIOS would freeze with an error at the end of the POST process. HP had no documentation of the issue.

Imagine you are a procurement manager tasked to order memory upgrades for 500 Kayak workstations. Do you order HP? Or do you order "guaranteed compatible" from Crucial, still reputable company but cheaper?

If you order Crucial and workstations start to crash after upgrade who do you go to for issue resolution?

And how much would it cost your company to replace RAM again on all of the machines and how much productivity is lost meanwhile during that chaos?

So, it is not just "HP wanted their business customers to buy their parts from HP". If you have to manage a lot of hardware (mission-critical to boot) then you want to stay exactly within supported configurations. And if there is a problem you go to single vendor to resolve.

In the case of the Kayak I've used, I don't really think it was *intentionally* designed to be difficult, but it wasn't designed to *not* be difficult either. There just wasn't much care or testing put into it's behavior with end-user upgrades. If HP had a part in their inventory that would work, then they considered that good enough. I don't think the machine is intentionally hostile to end-user upgrades, but it didn't get the level of compatibility testing that mainstream PCs get. It was too low volume for it to ever get much attention on it's deficiencies, even with 5 BIOS updates released (on my model anyway).
There was also some frustrating behavior with a 3rd party ATA controller I installed. Fixable, but the solution wasn't entirely satisfactory.

Yes, this is not hardware designed for individual consumers or small businesses. That would be Pavillion or Brio PCs.

When you have some part such as motherboard for DIY/local System integrators market they have to test more for wide compatibility with different hardware. But then there is not enough time/resources to test each configuration extensively since they are limitless.

Enterprise hardware such as Kayaks was not tested to 'work ok' with different RAM modules.
It was designed/tested to make sure it is rock solid on supported configurations in different environmental conditions. That is the focus.

Take OP's machine for example. 256Mb RAM modules were required to be ECC. This is most likely because non-ECC RAM didn't meet HP's stability requirements during development of this machine (adjusted perhaps for manufacturing variance). Just 'OK' wasn't enough.

This isn't unique to HP. It's a general comment about "high end" hardware. It likes to be difficult, whether due to intent or due to lack of testing.

It is not exactly about "high end" hardware. It is about "enterprise" hardware. Pentium->Pentium ||| period is interesting because "high end" WAS "enterprise". Intel CPUs were becoming better and there was finally a robust operating system in the form of Windows NT. Unix workstations technologies (SCSI, dual cpus, OpenGL graphics) were trickling down to Intel machines.

But with Voodoo, then DirectX and then NVIDIA 3d cards "consumer high-end" diverged from "enterprise high end". Asus ROG Matrix 4090 (liquid cooled one) now is high end as is say Asus Maximus Extreme MOBO. But it is consumer "high end". You would find Xeons/Epycs as well as Quadro (A6000 etc) cards in "enterprise high-end".

I am sure that even now HP Omen gaming desktops are more tested for individual end user upgrades than Z workstations. No real experience though.

If I ever feel like playing with my Voodoo 3, I'll probably put it in the Kayak because I trust it will be safe in there.

My Voodoo3 is in my Kayak. 😀

Dwaco wrote on 2024-10-19, 18:21:

256Mb RAM modules were required to be ECC. This is most likely because non-ECC RAM didn't meet HP's stability requirements during development of this machine (adjusted perhaps for manufacturing variance). Just 'OK' wasn't enough.

It's required to be Registered, but ECC is a side effect because in practice all Registered SDRAM modules also support ECC. Unbuffered ECC doesn't satisfy the requirement because ECC isn't really the issue, but the terms tend to get conflated.
I believe this rule is based on specifications from Intel for the 440BX chipset. Might be interesting to find out if the BIOS actually enforces it.
I remember reading some version of this rule in an Intel datasheet or other such document a long time ago. But I don't remember if the way Intel phrased it was for *any* 256MB modules or if it's for exceeding 512MB total.

shamino wrote on 2024-10-20, 08:40:

I believe this rule is based on specifications from Intel for the 440BX chipset. Might be interesting to find out if the BIOS actually enforces it.

I think the Visualize P-Class can either use ECC registered or "normal" DIMMs, without mixing.

All you need is 256mb of RAM for WinNT 4.0 best performance.
128mb for Win98

You only need 512mb of Memory if your Application requires more Memory.

Dwaco wrote on 2024-10-19, 17:23:

It tells you:
"Master, wtf are you doing? I want SCSI disks."

P.S. Those are supposed to be noisy. I was reading reviews of 15k rpm disks of then-new 146 Gb generation and they were discussing that noise level is OK for workstation use. I understand that you don't want to hear 15k rpm disks, but come on, at least 7200 should be OK.

Problem might be the old IDE drives that have gotten cranky during the last decades.
Since the Visualize P500 does not have SCSI onboard, I might directly go to SATA with a cheap PCI controller, to use more modern drives (HD or SSD).

The (special) floppy and cable are shot, making OS installs a bit complex.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2024-10-20, 16:14:

All you need is 256mb of RAM for WinNT 4.0 best performance.
128mb for Win98

You only need 512mb of Memory if your Application requires more Memory.

Thats for sure the minimum requirerement to run the OS conveniently.
Nevertheless I upgraded my X-Classes to the max of 8x 256MB ECC reg, because I dont like empty sockets in my systems.

I am a big fan of these high end workstations.
Owning 3 Visualize X-Class, 2 Kayak XM 800 and an XM600 Desktop along with the predecessorr the Vectra XU dual PPro.

If anybody thinks finding memory for the Kayak is difficult, try to find the 5V EDO DIMMs the Vectra XU uses.

There are a several PA-RISC Visualize systems in the collections as well.

eisapc wrote on 2024-10-22, 07:57:

Thats for sure the minimum requirerement to run the OS conveniently. Nevertheless I upgraded my X-Classes to the max of 8x 256MB […]
Show full quote

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2024-10-20, 16:14:

All you need is 256mb of RAM for WinNT 4.0 best performance.
128mb for Win98

You only need 512mb of Memory if your Application requires more Memory.

Thats for sure the minimum requirerement to run the OS conveniently.
Nevertheless I upgraded my X-Classes to the max of 8x 256MB ECC reg, because I dont like empty sockets in my systems.

I am a big fan of these high end workstations.
Owning 3 Visualize X-Class, 2 Kayak XM 800 and an XM600 Desktop along with the predecessorr the Vectra XU dual PPro.

If anybody thinks finding memory for the Kayak is difficult, try to find the 5V EDO DIMMs the Vectra XU uses.

There are a several PA-RISC Visualize systems in the collections as well.

Even this amount of RAM is Over doing it.
Back in 1997 We use to teach WinNT 4.0 Server and Workstation on Pentium-100mhz Computers with 32mb of ECC RAM 10base-T networks. And Never had any problems.
ECC RAM is NOT a requirement of WinNT.
Some computers had ECC RAM and other had un-registered non-ecc SDRAM.
We ran programs like Webservers, Oracle Database, Network Monitoring programs, etc.
Just increase the Virtual memory settings.

eisapc wrote on 2024-10-22, 07:57:

I am a big fan of these high end workstations.
Owning 3 Visualize X-Class, 2 Kayak XM 800 and an XM600 Desktop along with the predecessorr the Vectra XU dual PPro.

With that collection, by any chance, do you have any of:

• Kayak XU800 service handbook later than June 2000
• Visualize C3750 service handbook

Dwaco wrote on 2024-10-22, 18:35:

Visualize C3750 service handbook

I searched in my library and some obscure online archives but came up empty on C3750 documentation. It seems HP never really marketed C3750s as a full product, might've been limited to upgrades for existing C3600 customers, so documentation was not provided broadly.

Nice machine though!

VLIW wrote on 2024-10-21, 05:46:

Problem might be the old IDE drives that have gotten cranky during the last decades.
Since the Visualize P500 does not have SCSI onboard, I might directly go to SATA with a cheap PCI controller, to use more modern drives (HD or SSD).

I actually didn't realize it!

x86 Visualize ancestor - Kayak XW (P2 period) were the highest end, basically XU + upgraded video and were always coming with SCSI disks.
P3 Coppermine high-end Kayak XU800 had Ultra160 Adaptec chip on motherboard.

You are correct, SCSI was optional on Katmai Visualize and was only on some models via add-on PCI card.

The (special) floppy and cable are shot, making OS installs a bit complex.

Reading technical reference manual for your machine, it seems to me floppy connector pin-out is standard.

Even if floppy cable/drive is special (which I don't remember HP ever doing), you should be able to use standard cable and floppy drive (with front panel removed).

Dwaco wrote on 2024-10-26, 14:03:

x86 Visualize ancestor - Kayak XW (P2 period) were the highest end, basically XU + upgraded video and were always coming with SCSI disks.
P3 Coppermine high-end Kayak XU800 had Ultra160 Adaptec chip on motherboard.
You are correct, SCSI was optional on Katmai Visualize and was only on some models via add-on PCI card.

The header for the connector is actually on the mainboard but not soldered in, but I guess the SCSI chip also won't be.

A Visualize X-Class 1 GHz with SCSI was offered recently close to where I live. Maybe I should've jumped on it, nice config.

Dwaco wrote on 2024-10-26, 14:03:

Even if floppy cable/drive is special (which I don't remember HP ever doing), you should be able to use standard cable and floppy drive (with front panel removed).

The installed floppy does not properly write floppies and thrashes them when formatting. It seems the factory cable has been bent beyond repair. An exchange floppy drive with standard cable results in the LED being on all the time (which usually means cable reversed). When I do flip the cable, there is a BIOS floppy error. Factory floppy does not work at all with another cable.

All very strange, maybe the floppy controller is just kaput.