VOGONS


Table Fog & 8-bit Paletted Textures

Topic actions

Reply 580 of 597, by Sombrero

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-24, 07:49:

On the plus side, I managed to get the fog working in NFS3 on Radeon cards:

Confirmed, great stuff!

One thing though, I gave that NFS4 modern patch dx7a.dll a go with NFS4 and noticed it doesn't fix the blurry text issue but did offer high resolutions. Then I went back to NFS3 modern patch dx7a.dll, which has newer timestamp than the one in NFS4 modern patch to double check and noted that the text was fixed... but I also still had high resolutions available. Remember when I said NFS4 tops at 1024x768 on my system? I may have goofed 😆

Reply 581 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Sombrero wrote on 2024-06-24, 10:56:

One thing though, I gave that NFS4 modern patch dx7a.dll a go with NFS4 and noticed it doesn't fix the blurry text issue but did offer high resolutions. Then I went back to NFS3 modern patch dx7a.dll, which has newer timestamp than the one in NFS4 modern patch to double check and noted that the text was fixed... but I also still had high resolutions available. Remember when I said NFS4 tops at 1024x768 on my system? I may have goofed 😆

Cheers, I just checked the dx7a.dll from the NFS3 Modern Patch and it does indeed work fine with NFS4, providing proper fog, higher resolutions and sharper fonts. I've updated my mini guide to recommend that instead.

Now we have both games working flawlessly under Win98 at high resolutions, with functional fog and sharper fonts, without needing a Voodoo card. As a bonus, NFS4 no longer crashes with Nvidia drivers 45.23 nor with ATi Catalyst 6.2. I just tested both. 😀

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 582 of 597, by bloodem

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-24, 07:49:

I figured I'd tag you again for the most recent NFS3 fog restoration. 😁 The game visuals now look great on Radeon cards, with high resolutions available if desired.

That's awesome, thank you!
Fun fact: I just installed NFS 3 & 4 on a Radeon X800XT PC, so this comes in very handy! 😁

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 583 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

I found two more games that use paletted textures. Let's start with Ultima IX.

Graphics cards tested:

  • 3DFX Voodoo3 2000 - using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00
  • Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 - using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23
  • ATi Radeon X800 GTO - using ATi Catalyst reference drivers version 6.2

Games tested:

  • Ultima IX - retail CD version + official patch 1.18f

Ultima IX configuration utility

U9_Config_Voodoo3.jpg
Filename
U9_Config_Voodoo3.jpg
File size
38.09 KiB
Views
835 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
U9_Config_GeForce4.jpg
Filename
U9_Config_GeForce4.jpg
File size
38.71 KiB
Views
835 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
Ultima9_Config_X800.jpg
Filename
Ultima9_Config_X800.jpg
File size
38.56 KiB
Views
835 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

As far as I can tell, Ultima IX only allows paletted textures to be used in Glide mode. The intended use case is to improve performance on older 3DFX cards (e.g. Voodoo 1 and Voodoo Rush). Here's an excerpt from the readme:

Ultima IX Readme.txt wrote:
3. Texture Formats ============================ […]
Show full quote

3. Texture Formats
============================

Ultima IX: Ascension supports 3 different texture formats: 8-bit, 16-bit, and S3 Texture Compression.

8-bit is supported primarily by the Glide API for use with the 3dfx Voodoo family of chipsets. These cards also support 16-bit textures. 16-bit textures look better, but cause the game to run slower. 8-bit textures also require less hard drive space to install. If you have a Voodoo card, we suggest running with 8-bit textures.

Most Direct3D cards require the use of either 16-bit textures, or the S3 Texture Compression textures. 16-bit requires more hard drive space than S3TC. However, S3TC runs more slowly in many cases, because the textures must be decompressed before being displayed. Some Direct3D cards support hardware acceleration of this decompression, which makes the S3TC actually run faster on those cards than the 16-bit textures. Specifically, the S3 Savage 4 supports S3TC in hardware. If you have this card, we recommend installing the Compressed Textures. Otherwise, you should install the 16-bit textures.

You should not run the game in Direct3D with 8-bit textures.

According to the readme, 16-bit textures look better (and compressed textures look best) so 8-bit textures should only be used for performance reasons in this game.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 585 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Next up is Wargasm (lol at that name).

Graphics cards tested:

  • 3DFX Voodoo3 2000 - using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00
  • Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 - using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23
  • ATi Radeon X800 GTO - using ATi Catalyst reference drivers version 6.2

Games tested:

  • Wargasm - retail CD version + official patch 2

Wargasm configuration utility

WG_Config_Voodoo3.jpg
Filename
WG_Config_Voodoo3.jpg
File size
39.92 KiB
Views
818 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
WG_Config_GF4.jpg
Filename
WG_Config_GF4.jpg
File size
42.55 KiB
Views
818 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
WG_Config_X800.jpg
Filename
WG_Config_X800.jpg
File size
42.63 KiB
Views
818 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Although it looks like you can select 8-bit textures on the Radeon X800, attempting to do so will fail, as the checkbox won't stick. On both the Voodoo 3 and the GeForce 4 you can select that texture format normally. Once again, the intended use case for 8-bit textures is to improve performance on older 3DFX cards. Here's an excerpt from the game's readme:

Wargasm Readme.txt wrote:
3Dfx VoodooGraphics ------------------- Some texture loss when using 16 bit textures. 8 bit palettised is recommended. […]
Show full quote

3Dfx VoodooGraphics
-------------------
Some texture loss when using 16 bit textures. 8 bit palettised is recommended.

3Dfx VoodooRush
---------------
Some texture loss when using 16 bit textures. 8 bit palettised is recommended. Running Wargasm from desktop resolutions in excess of 1024x768 may result in the machine hanging. May cause slow response from the mouse in game.

So this game also falls into the category where selecting 8-bit textures provides improved performance at the cost of visual quality. Also of interest might be the fact that Wargasm specifically uses Vertex Fog, and displays that information in the configuration utility.

Last edited by Joseph_Joestar on 2024-09-17, 14:28. Edited 1 time in total.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 586 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2024-09-17, 14:09:

Metro Police apparently uses 8bit textures
https://sourceforge.net/p/dxwnd/discussion/ge … c1/?page=1#3e5c

I can't find any info on that title, not even a Wikipedia page.

What's the full name of the game? Is there a page somewhere describing it?

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 587 of 597, by BEEN_Nath_58

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-09-17, 14:20:
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2024-09-17, 14:09:

Metro Police apparently uses 8bit textures
https://sourceforge.net/p/dxwnd/discussion/ge … c1/?page=1#3e5c

I can't find any info on that title, not even a Wikipedia page.

What's the full name of the game? Is there a page somewhere describing it?

Head to the page I linked and turn behind 1 pages (from page 2 to page 1)

previously known as Discrete_BOB_058

Reply 588 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2024-09-17, 15:23:

Head to the page I linked and turn behind 1 pages (from page 2 to page 1)

I took a look and it's too much effort for me to test that game because of this:

The distribution of the game outside of Germany was impossible (although there are rumors of a French version) - it is initially installed only on German (!) Windows. If we add to this the presence of Laserlock protection (also very buggy in this game

If someone else can test it and post info where paletted texture use is referenced in the documentation or in-game options, I will add it to the wiki. The two screenshots on the page that you linked are not conclusive enough.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 590 of 597, by marxveix

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
villeneuve wrote on 2024-09-18, 01:06:

The game is entered on MobyGames: https://www.mobygames.com/game/41546/metro-police/
I don't think it worth playing though according to the reviews.

This game is available to buy 7.99 + transport (1 in stock):
https://www.amazon.de/Metro-Police/dp/B0029IBBT0

30+ MiniGL/OpenGL Win9x files for all Rage3 cards: Re: ATi RagePro OpenGL files

Reply 591 of 597, by marxveix

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

About Rage Pro / Rage XL OpenGL 8 bit palleted texture
GLinfo shares information that GL_EXT_paletted_texture is supported, what is the difference with Quake2 GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette vs GL_EXT_paletted_texture?

What other game i can test with OpenGL paletted texture and how to enable it in the game?

30+ MiniGL/OpenGL Win9x files for all Rage3 cards: Re: ATi RagePro OpenGL files

Reply 592 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
marxveix wrote on 2024-09-25, 11:59:

About Rage Pro / Rage XL OpenGL 8 bit palleted texture
GLinfo shares information that GL_EXT_paletted_texture is supported, what is the difference with Quake2 GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette vs GL_EXT_paletted_texture?

Based on this documentation GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette requires GL_EXT_paletted_texture in order to work. I don't have any further insight other than what's written there.

What other game i can test with OpenGL paletted texture and how to enable it in the game?

With the information that's currently available, it's mostly games which use the Quake and Quake 2 engine. For example, SiN, Heretic II and Kingpin. They are all listed on the relevant wiki page. You usually enable paletted textures from the video options menu, though that varies by game, and some enable it automatically if detected. If it works, the game's console log will show that it's enabled. Here's an example from Kingpin:

file.php?id=151855&mode=view

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 593 of 597, by marxveix

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-09-25, 12:11:
Based on this documentation GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette requires GL_EXT_paletted_texture in order to work. I don't have any f […]
Show full quote
marxveix wrote on 2024-09-25, 11:59:

About Rage Pro / Rage XL OpenGL 8 bit palleted texture
GLinfo shares information that GL_EXT_paletted_texture is supported, what is the difference with Quake2 GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette vs GL_EXT_paletted_texture?

Based on this documentation GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette requires GL_EXT_paletted_texture in order to work. I don't have any further insight other than what's written there.

What other game i can test with OpenGL paletted texture and how to enable it in the game?

With the information that's currently available, it's mostly games which use the Quake and Quake 2 engine. For example, SiN, Heretic II and Kingpin. They are all listed on the relevant wiki page. You usually enable paletted textures from the video options menu, though that varies by game, and some enable it automatically if detected. If it works, the game's console log will show that it's enabled. Here's an example from Kingpin:

file.php?id=151855&mode=view

Thanks, i check some other driver version also RagePro @ OpenGL paletted textures and next is Rage128Pro & OpenGL.

30+ MiniGL/OpenGL Win9x files for all Rage3 cards: Re: ATi RagePro OpenGL files

Reply 594 of 597, by BEEN_Nath_58

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-09-17, 15:44:

If someone else can test it and post info where paletted texture use is referenced in the documentation or in-game options, I will add it to the wiki. The two screenshots on the page that you linked are not conclusive enough.

Palleted:
file.php?mode=view&id=202892

Non-palleted:
file.php?mode=view&id=202891

Behaviour changes according to the GPU you use. There is no option to enable or disable it, nor did I find any useful documentation on this game. On modern wrappers, enabling/disabling palleted textures gives the same effect.

Attachments

  • palleted.png
    Filename
    palleted.png
    File size
    194.88 KiB
    Views
    345 views
    File license
    Public domain
  • nopalleted.png
    Filename
    nopalleted.png
    File size
    144.16 KiB
    Views
    345 views
    File license
    Public domain

previously known as Discrete_BOB_058

Reply 595 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2024-10-06, 11:01:

Behaviour changes according to the GPU you use. There is no option to enable or disable it, nor did I find any useful documentation on this game. On modern wrappers, enabling/disabling palleted textures gives the same effect.

Looks good. Added now, thanks!

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 596 of 597, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

I picked up an AMD R7 250 recently and I wanted to test its retro gaming capabilities. The results kinda surprised me. I've tested this card under WinXP using Catalyst 14.4 drivers as well as under Win7 x64 using Adrenalin 2020 Edition 21.3.1 drivers. During the tests, the drivers were at their default settings, with no additional tweaks applied or any third-party utilities used.

Graphics cards tested:

  • AMD Radeon R7 250

Games tested:

  • Final Fantasy VIII Demo - you can download the free demo from here
  • Thief II: The Metal Age - retail CD version with the latest official patch 1.18 applied

Final Fantasy VIII configuration program

R7_250_FF8_Config.png
Filename
R7_250_FF8_Config.png
File size
14.09 KiB
Views
133 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Unsurprisingly, this card doesn't support paletted textures. In-game, the menu colors look washed out, but otherwise, the FF8 Demo renders quite well. No artifacts, lines or any other issues that are common on newer Nvidia cards. And that's on Win7 x64, using drivers from 2021.

Thief II Mission 11: Precious Cargo

R7_250_Thief2_Fog.jpg
Filename
R7_250_Thief2_Fog.jpg
File size
41.68 KiB
Views
133 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

What really surprised me was that table fog support works under both WinXP and Win7 on this card! This is in contrast to Nvidia cards which only have table fog functionality under WinXP. Note that the lack of 16-bit dithering causes visible color banding, but that's expected from all graphics cards which use unified shaders (DX10 and above).

BTW, if someone has a newer AMD card, I'd be curious to see if they still support table fog under Win7/10/11. To test this, you need the retail CD version of Thief 2 + official patch 1.18. Digital versions from GOG/Steam are unsuitable for this test since they integrate fan-made fixes by default. Also, you may need to set the affinity of thief2.exe to one core, or else the game might crash.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 597 of 597, by BEEN_Nath_58

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Nvidia can bother checking that their w-based fog vertex coordinates don't work. Table fog is supported on Nvidia to this day, but it doesn't work. You can make it work by making an external hook to the driver over the vertices processing, and changing the values, DDRawCompat and DxWnd use this mechanism.

Table fog reportedly works (ed at least) on the AMD 400 series card on Windows 10 (at least): https://github.com/narzoul/DDrawCompat/issues … mment-323608448

previously known as Discrete_BOB_058