DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-30, 12:19:

Are there any specific sound cards that are recommended with the MT-32 or are they all mostly fine for the job? I take it they have to be ISA cards as a general rule?

MT-32 devices gets... complicated.

First there are a plethora of MT-32 devices available. There is the original model (Rev.0 or "old"), a revised model (Rev.1 or "new"), other models (e.g. MT-100) and various CM models (CM-32, CM-64, etc.). The wikipedia article provides some details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MT-32

Different models will have different features or quirks. For example, the CM-series contains extra sound effects used by some games. Depending on the games you want to play may dictate which is the best model to get. The VOGONS wiki has a list: https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … _computer_games

The second thing is there are a couple different types of MPU-401 interfaces. This includes the original normal or intelligent mode (used on Roland interfaces). And then there is the UART or "dumb" mode, which is used with a lot of other sound cards. Certain MT-32 games use intelligent mode (for custom instrumentation), and therefore won't sound correct with UART/dumb mode. It's possible to get around this with SoftMPU, which is a software solution for DOS that will work with most games. The wikipedia article has more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPU-401

Third, different sound cards like a lot of Sound Blaster cards have buggy MPU-401 implementations. Some sound cards have non-standard MIDI implements entirely. Not all sound cards are created equally. The best for MPU-401 implementation would be a bug-free MPU-401 intelligent mode such as found on most Roland MPU-401 interfaces, or some modern cards like the Orpheus series and PCMIDI cards. And MPU-401 interface support can be found on PCI cards as well. For example, I've tested and MT-32 using a ESS Solo-1 PCI sound card and it worked well.

Fourth, most MT-32 supported games are from the late 80s to early 90s and are speed sensitive. In some cases you'll need to make sure you can throttle your PC to appropriate speeds in order for things to work properly. I have found some games that won't play back MT-32 music correctly if the system is too fast.

I'm certainly interested in getting some of the best sounding audio/music I can for my retro games.

Roland MT-32 and SC-55 are generally the top options for music playback in late 80s to mid-90s games. I would also add Gravis Ultrasound into the mix, but it is admittedly only a small number of games that really benefit from one.

What are Sound Fonts exactly?

Sound Fonts are basically user loadable instrument sets that can be used with certain cards. I've found that under DOS, sound font support isn't great among cards that use them (e.g. AWE32/64). It's more of a Windows thing.

I've also come across 'OPL'. What exactly is that? I understand it's only available on original/older SB cards...?

OPL is a series of FM synthesis sound chips made by Yamaha. In most cases, these are OPL2 or OPL3 based chips used on various sound cards, though some later cards use OPL4 (integrated into Yamaha YMF7xx series of chips). More in the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_OPL

FM synthesis is a way of generating sounds via digital synthesis. This in contrast to things like General MIDI or Sound Fonts that use short sound recordings. FM Synthesis was commonly used in early sound cards as a way of generating multi-channel sound. A lot of games from late 80s to mid 90s included support for FM synthesis based sound tracks.

There are other chips that can generate FM synthesis besides Yamaha OPL based chips. The reason OPL is usually emphasized is because it was the most common form of FM synthesis and therefore the one that generally sounds 'correct' to most people's ears.

And finally, are there any retro/period accurate speakers anyone would recommend?

Roland MA-12C speakers are some of the better quality ones. Yamaha YST-M10 are good as well (especially when combined with a Yamaha subwoofer).

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-30, 12:53:

MT-32 devices gets... complicated. […]
Show full quote

MT-32 devices gets... complicated.

First there are a plethora of MT-32 devices available. There is the original model (Rev.0 or "old"), a revised model (Rev.1 or "new"), other models (e.g. MT-100) and various CM models (CM-32, CM-64, etc.). The wikipedia article provides some details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MT-32

Different models will have different features or quirks. For example, the CM-series contains extra sound effects used by some games. Depending on the games you want to play may dictate which is the best model to get. The VOGONS wiki has a list: https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … _computer_games

The second thing is there are a couple different types of MPU-401 interfaces. This includes the original normal or intelligent mode (used on Roland interfaces). And then there is the UART or "dumb" mode, which is used with a lot of other sound cards. Certain MT-32 games use intelligent mode (for custom instrumentation), and therefore won't sound correct with UART/dumb mode. It's possible to get around this with SoftMPU, which is a software solution for DOS that will work with most games. The wikipedia article has more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPU-401

Third, different sound cards like a lot of Sound Blaster cards have buggy MPU-401 implementations. Some sound cards have non-standard MIDI implements entirely. Not all sound cards are created equally. The best for MPU-401 implementation would be a bug-free MPU-401 intelligent mode such as found on most Roland MPU-401 interfaces, or some modern cards like the Orpheus series and PCMIDI cards. And MPU-401 interface support can be found on PCI cards as well. For example, I've tested and MT-32 using a ESS Solo-1 PCI sound card and it worked well.

Fourth, most MT-32 supported games are from the late 80s to early 90s and are speed sensitive. In some cases you'll need to make sure you can throttle your PC to appropriate speeds in order for things to work properly. I have found some games that won't play back MT-32 music correctly if the system is too fast.

I'm certainly interested in getting some of the best sounding audio/music I can for my retro games.

Roland MT-32 and SC-55 are generally the top options for music playback in late 80s to mid-90s games. I would also add Gravis Ultrasound into the mix, but it is admittedly only a small number of games that really benefit from one.

What are Sound Fonts exactly?

Sound Fonts are basically user loadable instrument sets that can be used with certain cards. I've found that under DOS, sound font support isn't great among cards that use them (e.g. AWE32/64). It's more of a Windows thing.

I've also come across 'OPL'. What exactly is that? I understand it's only available on original/older SB cards...?

OPL is a series of FM synthesis sound chips made by Yamaha. In most cases, these are OPL2 or OPL3 based chips used on various sound cards, though some later cards use OPL4 (integrated into Yamaha YMF7xx series of chips). More in the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_OPL

FM synthesis is a way of generating sounds via digital synthesis. This in contrast to things like General MIDI or Sound Fonts that use short sound recordings. FM Synthesis was commonly used in early sound cards as a way of generating multi-channel sound. A lot of games from late 80s to mid 90s included support for FM synthesis based sound tracks.

There are other chips that can generate FM synthesis besides Yamaha OPL based chips. The reason OPL is usually emphasized is because it was the most common form of FM synthesis and therefore the one that generally sounds 'correct' to most people's ears.

And finally, are there any retro/period accurate speakers anyone would recommend?

Roland MA-12C speakers are some of the better quality ones. Yamaha YST-M10 are good as well (especially when combined with a Yamaha subwoofer).

Wow. Thank you for the lengthy and informative response. 😁 That's certainly given me a lot to chew over. Hmm...

I understand that I could technically have and switch between two sound cards, right? The problem in my case is that I only have one ISA slot, so the other would have to be a PCI card, providing it was a decent one. I'm kinda familiar with those MT-32 models you've mentioned as they're covered in a video I was watching, which I still need to finish off at some point. But I'll certainly check through the wiki.

I do like MIDI music, so I guess an MPU-401 card would make sense for me to get. Bonus of course if PCI sound cards support them without issue as well. 😀 So I suspect two will be on the... *ahem* cards. 🤣 One for MIDI and an ISA for any early DOS games.

I did happen to watch a video for the Roland MA-12C earlier. Sadly, the ones I'm seeing on eBay UK are listed in Japan and are a bit pricey. However, I've seen some Yamaha YST-M10s with a subwoofer, and those are much more affordable, so that's looking like a strong possibility. 😀

Okay, after checking the wiki of compatible titles, it's probably not worth me getting an MT-32. There are only a few titles that would benefit, and they mostly fall into the CM-series or MT-32 New categories.

One ISA slot doesn't have to be a show-stopper - consider that things like MPU-401, FM-synth and digital audio can all be offered by a single card. Also, you can emulate intelligent mode MPU-401 using softMPU and a card that supports (preferably bug-free) UART mode MPU-401. That's the vast majority of cards out there.

But maybe a step back:
You say this if for your Windows 98 system. All the questions you've asked have been relevant for DOS games (in some cases only some very old ones), not for Windows games. Under Windows, you have DirectSound (and predecessors) and software MIDI synths so the hardware you use is less directly relevant for making sound. Instead, the things to look for are low CPU usage and positional audio (A3D, EAX etc) support. Those are offered by PCI cards, not ISA cards.

So first answer the question: what games do you want to focus on? Once you have that clarified, you can look at what hardware would ideally be needed for them, and then what compromises you may need to make with the single ISA slot. It's also useful to know what CPU you have. 1 ISA slot sounds like a 2000-ish system with late P3 or early Athlon.

If you want to run both Windows 98 and some DOS games, you could do a lot worse than go for a generic SBPro2 + OPL3 + bug-free MPU-401 card like anything with OPTi 929/930 or Aztech 23xx chipsets, and if perfect OPL3 isn't a thing for your games, Crystal CS423x or ESS 1xxx-based cards are great too. They are relatively cheap and easy to find and have very good compatibility. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you can hook up external MIDI modules or internal waveblaster cards to most of them.

dionb wrote on 2024-10-30, 22:51:

One ISA slot doesn't have to be a show-stopper - consider that things like MPU-401, FM-synth and digital audio can all be offere […]
Show full quote

One ISA slot doesn't have to be a show-stopper - consider that things like MPU-401, FM-synth and digital audio can all be offered by a single card. Also, you can emulate intelligent mode MPU-401 using softMPU and a card that supports (preferably bug-free) UART mode MPU-401. That's the vast majority of cards out there.

But maybe a step back:
You say this if for your Windows 98 system. All the questions you've asked have been relevant for DOS games (in some cases only some very old ones), not for Windows games. Under Windows, you have DirectSound (and predecessors) and software MIDI synths so the hardware you use is less directly relevant for making sound. Instead, the things to look for are low CPU usage and positional audio (A3D, EAX etc) support. Those are offered by PCI cards, not ISA cards.

So first answer the question: what games do you want to focus on? Once you have that clarified, you can look at what hardware would ideally be needed for them, and then what compromises you may need to make with the single ISA slot. It's also useful to know what CPU you have. 1 ISA slot sounds like a 2000-ish system with late P3 or early Athlon.

If you want to run both Windows 98 and some DOS games, you could do a lot worse than go for a generic SBPro2 + OPL3 + bug-free MPU-401 card like anything with OPTi 929/930 or Aztech 23xx chipsets, and if perfect OPL3 isn't a thing for your games, Crystal CS423x or ESS 1xxx-based cards are great too. They are relatively cheap and easy to find and have very good compatibility. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you can hook up external MIDI modules or internal waveblaster cards to most of them.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will probably get a SB16 AWE64 for some of the DOS games. And then something different for other games that use general MIDI etc. It is a system from around 2000, I believe. Slot 1, P3.

I have just seen a few, but not sure how recommended/good they are. There's a Creative CT1740 Sound Blaster 16 ISA Audio Sound Card YAMAHA OPL3. Though this is older than an AWE64, right? I've seen a Telesound Pro16 ISA Sound Card by TeleVideo, OPL3 Sound Blaster 16 Clone MPU-401. And I've seen a few of those Aztech chipsets cheap and at least one Crystal sound card. Soooo much choice, I'm really not sure what to go for. ^^;

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-30, 15:39:

I understand that I could technically have and switch between two sound cards, right? The problem in my case is that I only have one ISA slot, so the other would have to be a PCI card, providing it was a decent one.

Yes, you can have more than one sound card including a mix of PCI and ISA sound cards. The main consideration is making sure there are no hardware conflicts between ports, IRQ and DMA channels. Two cards isn't difficult to manage. Things get complicated when you get to 4 sound cards or more. 😅

For your setup, I would definitely do at least one PCI sound card for Windows, plus an ISA sound card.

I do like MIDI music, so I guess an MPU-401 card would make sense for me to get. Bonus of course if PCI sound cards support them without issue as well. 😀 So I suspect two will be on the... *ahem* cards. 🤣 One for MIDI and an ISA for any early DOS games.

However, I've seen some Yamaha YST-M10s with a subwoofer, and those are much more affordable, so that's looking like a strong possibility. 😀

It's a good option. I currently use that setup with my 486 DX-33.

Okay, after checking the wiki of compatible titles, it's probably not worth me getting an MT-32. There are only a few titles that would benefit, and they mostly fall into the CM-series or MT-32 New categories.

IMHO, the biggest reason to have an MT-32 is for Sierra, Dynamix and LucasArts adventure games from 1987 to 1993. Those games had some amazing MT-32 sound tracks. X-COM also sounds really good with an MT-32.

But if there aren't a lot of games that you want to play that use an MT-32, then it's probably best saving the money to invest in something else.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 00:10:

Thanks for the suggestions. I will probably get a SB16 AWE64 for some of the DOS games. And then something different for other games that use general MIDI etc. It is a system from around 2000, I believe. Slot 1, P3.

AWE64 is supported by any game with an AWE32 driver, which is most games from 1994 on in fact. and real mode games with GM support in DOS, or any game with GM support under win9x (you haven't really mentioned what you plan to run DOS games under). but you need to listen to AWE32/64 game recordings beforehand and make sure you are fine with the 1 MB ROM patchset, because you won't exactly be loading any soundfonts into 512 KB of onboard RAM. all this is really for is to load creative's GS patchset for a few extra drumsets and such.

to sum up soundfont support: it's either an AWE32 with tracking down two 30-pin SIMMs for it, an AWE64 with an expensive simmconn custom memory adapter+a 72-pin SIMM, or a cheap Live! with nothing else needed and soundfont support under 9x for DOS games, but inferior game compatibility compared to the ISA cards. and finally, arachno is so large you won't be loading it into any of these cards. the limit is 28 MB for the AWE cards and 32 (or possibly 64) MB for the Live! cards.

As your running Win98 you have a few options.
First, I'd strongly recommend a PCI card, but this would be for Win98 games more than dos.
Win98 has 3 important sound standards:
MIDI, Late dos and Win9x games would use GM or General Midi devices, think of this as the successor to MT-32 with a Roland SC-55 been the default choice.

A3D, realistically only 1 card is worth considering the Aureal Vortex 2 which is just about the only card that supports A3D 2.0 and still somewhat easy to buy.
(Vortex 1 are cheaper but only support A3D 1.0 but so do many other cards, just not as well)

EAX, This is your SBLive!, Audigy, Audigy 2 cards. As a bonus these cards allow you to use sound fonts like the AWE.
As Shponglefan said it's more used in Windows and used somewhat as an alternative to MIDI
If you play dos games from within WIn98 sound fonts can be a nice feature to have.

Which soundcard do you have onboard? If you're lucky it's a Yamaha YMF which is actually quite a nice card with MIDI to rival Roland built in.

This video someone else linked recently is quite good.
The Digitized vs synthesized sounds chapter demonstrated the OPL (synthesized) chip in action which then leads into comparing different soundfonts
https://youtu.be/JaCIFx6SYW0?si=5Z3UhAWrmf3C4mPV

Finally for speakers I'd recommend something with a subwoofer, Generally speaking anything marketed as PC speakers are low end but even a cheap sub can make crappy speakers sound ok.
Proper monitor speakers like the Yamaha ones you are looking at will be 100 times better than anything marketed as computer speakers

If you get a MT32 Pi you can switch between the different ROM sets (revisions of the MT32 and CM32) via a command line. It also bundles in fluidsynth which lets you load whichever SoundFonts you want.

As was mentioned a PCI sound card for Windows could make sense, those also generally have perfect 16bit digital playback, with lacking Adlib support. But for 16bit audio games, they usually support MIDI for music.

You might want to also check out the Pico GUS. It lets you switch between a SB Pro, Adlib OPL2, Gravis Ultra Sound, intelligent mode MPU-401, and USB joystick support.

i feel if you go for that pi stuff, might as well go full emulation and do everything in dosbox instead. a p3 from 2000 is not exactly a DOS era system to begin with, but an AWE32/64 at least gives authentic sound. i don't know that stuff like GUS or intelligent mode MPU-401 is all that relevant for a p3. also, windows 98 already supports USB gamepads and joysticks for DOS games anyway.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 00:10:

[...]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will probably get a SB16 AWE64 for some of the DOS games. And then something different for other games that use general MIDI etc. It is a system from around 2000, I believe. Slot 1, P3.

Be aware that there are a lot of SB16 models with very differing characteristics (even among the ones with AWE). They are also all buggy to a greater or lesser degree, particularly regarding MIDI/wavetable behaviour. If you can only have a single card for DOS, I'd specifically recommend it not being an SB16.

If you want to read up about all the different versions, see here:
Sound Blaster: From best to worst

I have just seen a few, but not sure how recommended/good they are. There's a Creative CT1740 Sound Blaster 16 ISA Audio Sound Card YAMAHA OPL3. Though this is older than an AWE64, right?

Newer isn't always better. "AWE" was Creative branding for their high-end SB16 cards, some quite a bit older than the CT4170. The CT4170 is a late low-end Vibra, with the saving grace that it doesn't have MIDI hanging note bugs and that it is not inherently noisy, but it has Vibra rings and hisses, it slows down MIDI music if simultaneously playin high-quality digital audio and it has Creative's CQM FM synth instead of a Yamaha OPL3 (so the description is explicitly wrong...). If you had two ISA slots and had a bug-free solution with real (or 1:1 clone) OPL3 in the other one, this would be a fine way of adding SB16 16b sound cheaply, but as you don't I'd not recommend it.

I've seen a Telesound Pro16 ISA Sound Card by TeleVideo, OPL3 Sound Blaster 16 Clone MPU-401.

Again an incorrect description (sellers don't know or care about details half the time and stick whatever they think will catch searches for this kind of thing). This is a card with OPTi 929 chipset, which had trouble-free Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 compatibility, but not SB16. It also has bug-free MPU-401 UART and either a real OPL3 or a 1:1 clone - and a wavetable header you could attach a waveblaster module to for MIDI. This would actually be a decent single-card solution in your case.

And I've seen a few of those Aztech chipsets cheap and at least one Crystal sound card. Soooo much choice, I'm really not sure what to go for. ^^;

As usual, if there's too much choice, you need to get more specific in your requirements. And in your information. There are quite a few different Aztech and Crystal chipsets, and there's a big difference between AZT1605 ('bad') and AZT2320 ('good') and between say CS4235 ('bad') and CS4232 or CS4237 ('good')

As chinny22 says, exactly what onboard audio your board has might help narrow down the choice. If it offers SB16 (eg. onboard ES137x / Creative SB64/128) you definitely don't need SB16 on the ISA card. If it offers bug-free MPU-401 MIDI under DOS (eg. ESS Solo-1 or Yamha YMF74x) you don't need to worry about that on the ISA card. If you can't identify the sound chip, at least give us brand+model of the motherboard - we can figure it out from there.

auron wrote on 2024-10-31, 01:42:

AWE64 is supported by any game with an AWE32 driver, which is most games from 1994 on in fact. and real mode games with GM support in DOS, or any game with GM support under win9x (you haven't really mentioned what you plan to run DOS games under). but you need to listen to AWE32/64 game recordings beforehand and make sure you are fine with the 1 MB ROM patchset, because you won't exactly be loading any soundfonts into 512 KB of onboard RAM. all this is really for is to load creative's GS patchset for a few extra drumsets and such.

to sum up soundfont support: it's either an AWE32 with tracking down two 30-pin SIMMs for it, an AWE64 with an expensive simmconn custom memory adapter+a 72-pin SIMM, or a cheap Live! with nothing else needed and soundfont support under 9x for DOS games, but inferior game compatibility compared to the ISA cards. and finally, arachno is so large you won't be loading it into any of these cards. the limit is 28 MB for the AWE cards and 32 (or possibly 64) MB for the Live! cards.

What I plan to run DOS games under...? You mean Windows 98? That's what my retro PC has. 😀

I suspect I won't be loading any Sound Fonts up. It's not something I'm familiar with. Although I don't mind looking into it. But the Arachno is a custom Sound Font then? I doubt I'll be making use of it then.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-10-31, 01:53:

As your running Win98 you have a few options. First, I'd strongly recommend a PCI card, but this would be for Win98 games more t […]
Show full quote

As your running Win98 you have a few options.
First, I'd strongly recommend a PCI card, but this would be for Win98 games more than dos.
Win98 has 3 important sound standards:
MIDI, Late dos and Win9x games would use GM or General Midi devices, think of this as the successor to MT-32 with a Roland SC-55 been the default choice.

A3D, realistically only 1 card is worth considering the Aureal Vortex 2 which is just about the only card that supports A3D 2.0 and still somewhat easy to buy.
(Vortex 1 are cheaper but only support A3D 1.0 but so do many other cards, just not as well)

EAX, This is your SBLive!, Audigy, Audigy 2 cards. As a bonus these cards allow you to use sound fonts like the AWE.
As Shponglefan said it's more used in Windows and used somewhat as an alternative to MIDI
If you play dos games from within WIn98 sound fonts can be a nice feature to have.

Which soundcard do you have onboard? If you're lucky it's a Yamaha YMF which is actually quite a nice card with MIDI to rival Roland built in.

This video someone else linked recently is quite good.
The Digitized vs synthesized sounds chapter demonstrated the OPL (synthesized) chip in action which then leads into comparing different soundfonts
https://youtu.be/JaCIFx6SYW0?si=5Z3UhAWrmf3C4mPV

Finally for speakers I'd recommend something with a subwoofer, Generally speaking anything marketed as PC speakers are low end but even a cheap sub can make crappy speakers sound ok.
Proper monitor speakers like the Yamaha ones you are looking at will be 100 times better than anything marketed as computer speakers

Okay. Yeah, I doubt I'll go for something like A3D. SBLive!, Audigy, Audigy 2 I'll look into though. Thanks.

I'm not quite sure what the onboard sound is at the moment, but I'll find out a bit later. I should be getting my replacement CPU fan today, so when I boot the machine up, I'll give it a look.

I bought myself those Yamaha speakers. 😁 And I've just ordered my first ISA card. The CL AWE64 CT4520. I was going to go for the 4500, but according to that spreadsheet, there are no apparent differences/issues with any of the AWE64 chips. Plus it was £10 cheaper. 😀

dionb wrote on 2024-10-31, 07:40:

Be aware that there are a lot of SB16 models with very differing characteristics (even among the ones with AWE). They are also a […]
Show full quote

Be aware that there are a lot of SB16 models with very differing characteristics (even among the ones with AWE). They are also all buggy to a greater or lesser degree, particularly regarding MIDI/wavetable behaviour. If you can only have a single card for DOS, I'd specifically recommend it not being an SB16.

If you want to read up about all the different versions, see here:
Sound Blaster: From best to worst

I have just seen a few, but not sure how recommended/good they are. There's a Creative CT1740 Sound Blaster 16 ISA Audio Sound Card YAMAHA OPL3. Though this is older than an AWE64, right?

Newer isn't always better. "AWE" was Creative branding for their high-end SB16 cards, some quite a bit older than the CT4170. The CT4170 is a late low-end Vibra, with the saving grace that it doesn't have MIDI hanging note bugs and that it is not inherently noisy, but it has Vibra rings and hisses, it slows down MIDI music if simultaneously playin high-quality digital audio and it has Creative's CQM FM synth instead of a Yamaha OPL3 (so the description is explicitly wrong...). If you had two ISA slots and had a bug-free solution with real (or 1:1 clone) OPL3 in the other one, this would be a fine way of adding SB16 16b sound cheaply, but as you don't I'd not recommend it.

I've seen a Telesound Pro16 ISA Sound Card by TeleVideo, OPL3 Sound Blaster 16 Clone MPU-401.

Again an incorrect description (sellers don't know or care about details half the time and stick whatever they think will catch searches for this kind of thing). This is a card with OPTi 929 chipset, which had trouble-free Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 compatibility, but not SB16. It also has bug-free MPU-401 UART and either a real OPL3 or a 1:1 clone - and a wavetable header you could attach a waveblaster module to for MIDI. This would actually be a decent single-card solution in your case.

And I've seen a few of those Aztech chipsets cheap and at least one Crystal sound card. Soooo much choice, I'm really not sure what to go for. ^^;

As usual, if there's too much choice, you need to get more specific in your requirements. And in your information. There are quite a few different Aztech and Crystal chipsets, and there's a big difference between AZT1605 ('bad') and AZT2320 ('good') and between say CS4235 ('bad') and CS4232 or CS4237 ('good')

As chinny22 says, exactly what onboard audio your board has might help narrow down the choice. If it offers SB16 (eg. onboard ES137x / Creative SB64/128) you definitely don't need SB16 on the ISA card. If it offers bug-free MPU-401 MIDI under DOS (eg. ESS Solo-1 or Yamha YMF74x) you don't need to worry about that on the ISA card. If you can't identify the sound chip, at least give us brand+model of the motherboard - we can figure it out from there.

Oh, of course. The motherboard. Yeah, it's this one - https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/msi-ms-6156-bx11 - so that means it has the Creative ES1373 (AudioPCI), or otherwise known as the Ensoniq ES1373.

But don't worry, I didn't go for a SB16. I went for an AWE64. 😀

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 14:12:

What I plan to run DOS games under...? You mean Windows 98? That's what my retro PC has. 😀

I suspect I won't be loading any Sound Fonts up. It's not something I'm familiar with. Although I don't mind looking into it. But the Arachno is a custom Sound Font then? I doubt I'll be making use of it then.

was referring to rebooting to real mode DOS, which is an option you have with win98. but it's not a big deal if you aren't familiar with it, games usually work fine under 98 anyway.

and soundfonts aren't hard to get into, they are really just .sf2/.sbk files you download off the internet, giving you room to experiment if you so desire.

auron wrote on 2024-10-31, 15:29:

was referring to rebooting to real mode DOS, which is an option you have with win98. but it's not a big deal if you aren't familiar with it, games usually work fine under 98 anyway.

and soundfonts aren't hard to get into, they are really just .sf2/.sbk files you download off the internet, giving you room to experiment if you so desire.

Ah, I see. But yeah, I remember seeing it as an option. Haven't had much experience with pure DOS mode, but, again, I'm up for learning and experimenting. 😀

But with the .sf2/.sbk files, what do you do with them? Put them into a folder where a game is installed? Or where the drivers for the sound card are installed? What do you do with them then? Select the appropriate file during the audio setup for the chosen game?

you load them right in the sound card control panel after installing the software from CD, that's it. it's just that as i mentioned, 512 KB on your AWE64 is very limiting, but you can still set GS mode and it will load that .sbk into memory, and you may notice some different drumsets depending on what game you play (need to select GM as opposed to AWE32 for that in the DOS game sound setup, though).

it's also something you can mess with on a modern PC, i believe VLC will let you set a .sf2 to load with fluidsynth, so you can play MIDI files with that.

auron wrote on 2024-10-31, 15:58:

it's just that as i mentioned, 512 KB on your AWE64 is very limiting

There always the option to get a memory expansion (including the SimmConn from Serdashop) to expand its memory. Though it's admittedly a little pricey to go that route.

I mean, with a SBLive or Audigy card, you can load any soundfont you want, as long as it fits into your system RAM, and use it for General MIDI music in DOS games running under Win9x. And if you really wanted to, you could even use an ISA sound card for digital audio (speech and sound effects) and the SBLive/Audigy just for General MIDI.

Much cheaper than hunting down an AWE64 + SimmConn + 32 MB RAM module, if the goal is to use soundfonts.