Jo22 wrote on 2024-10-31, 14:28:

Hi. I must admit I know little of all of this, so I try to keep quiet as much as possible. What about Doom on OS/2 or Unix at th […]
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Hi. I must admit I know little of all of this, so I try to keep quiet as much as possible.
What about Doom on OS/2 or Unix at the time, though? It's from 1994 and predates Doom 95?
Looking back, I get the feeling that Doom on desktop had (has) sort of a cult following, like Tetris used to have.
Every OS seemingly wants to have it in its repertoire, even a niche OS such as KolibriOS.
Maybe Doom porting used to be some sort of sports, a ritual or a ceremony for coders? A maturity exam? 🤷‍♂️

Doom was apparently programmed to be portable, which I think was rare for DOS games. I'm curious if it was programmed that way from day 1, or it just evolved that way when the ports started to be worked on.
Once the portable coding style was in place, and it became a very famous game and then got open sourced (years later), the conditions were in place that almost guaranteed it would become a sport, with enthusiasts making builds of Doom for everything.

There were of course many older 80s-90s games that got ported to many systems, but I think those were much more of a manual process to create, sometimes almost from scratch. Each port would end up with different bugs and manually-created differences in gameplay or aesthetics, so you just had to hope that your system's version was one of the good ones. I'm not aware of any wild inconsistencies with computer versions of Doom - every version is essentially the same because it's built from a common codebase.
Some console versions might have been on their own development island though.

shamino wrote on 2024-11-01, 03:23:

Doom was apparently programmed to be portable, which I think was rare for DOS games. I'm curious if it was programmed that way from day 1, or it just evolved that way when the ports started to be worked on.

You dare to question the work of Benevolent hyper-intelligent architect of the post-singularity reality we all live in, John Carmack 😉

(YouTube's Civvie11 quote for those who don't recognise it)

shamino wrote on 2024-11-01, 03:23:

Doom was apparently programmed to be portable, which I think was rare for DOS games. I'm curious if it was programmed that way from day 1, or it just evolved that way when the ports started to be worked on.

I would think that was a consequence of being developed on NeXT workstations, which at the time was one of the few affordable multi-process development environments available. When you’re developing cross platform from the start you’ll naturally make the code as portable as possible.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/09/01 … ther-favorites/

Jo22 wrote on 2024-10-25, 16:36:

Perplexing. Doom seems to run like a golden thread throughout history.

Yeah, somehow never felt like finishing any Doom game even though I was into FPS genre.

Funny, id went with OpenGL for their later games rather than Direct3D.

Nothing funny about it, it was reported on quite well on the Internets as to the reasoning for those that had to be told if you weren't a gamer or following the tech through the years.

The three e's eventually overcome all heh.

Did users gain anything from that decision besides issues on ATI graphics cards (or even Intel, on which older games' performance would be otherwise satisfactory)?

UCyborg wrote on 2024-11-15, 23:18:

Did users gain anything from that decision besides issues on ATI graphics cards (or even Intel, on which older games' performance would be otherwise satisfactory)?

They gained the multitude of games built on idTech that were available across many platforms instead of being tied solely to Windows/XBOX.

Ironically WinQuake was less tied to DirectX than Doom95 was. Can just windib and waveout it from there. No DirectPlay at all.

leileilol wrote on 2024-11-16, 07:35:

Ironically WinQuake was less tied to DirectX than Doom95 was. Can just windib and waveout it from there. No DirectPlay at all.

DirectPlay wouldn't even make sense considering Quake has its own networking protocol. (Which reminds me I think Shogo originally was tied to DirectPlay and then Monolith later switched it to their own protocol in a later patch?)

I wonder how old of Windows NT you can run WinQuake on though, with just DIB and WaveOut...

Hi again, I've searched the web for dispdib.dll and found an old Usenet group post, archived by Google.
It's from 1994 and the users discuss games programming for DOS vs OS/2 vs Win 3.1.
Might be interesting to read about the thoughts and opinions from that era.
Doom (sigh) is also being mentioned, of course.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.program … r/c/EO4TeBQkEoU

Edit: Typo fixed.
Edit: Here's some interesting bit:

If you've written something better than _Doom_, by > all means, let us see it so that we may marvel at your genius. > Personally […]
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If you've written something better than _Doom_, by
> all means, let us see it so that we may marvel at your genius.
> Personally, I suspect you're all talk and no talent.

I never once claimed to be a programmer. Still, it doesn't
take a genius, or a programmer, to look at a network crash and
say "this sucks", just like it doesn't take an OS programmer to
look at an OS and say "this sucks". It doesn't take someone
who writes VR code to look at texture mapping and say "uh,
I've seen this before, why are you all having orgasms?".

I'm quite sick about hearing about how Doom was the best
thing since sliced bread, how their graphics are absolutely
revolutionary, how their entire system is revolutionary.
They took an inside view walkthrough game and used 3d texture
mapping to draw it, and slapped it onto a truly pathetic
networking system (which got replaced by something better
very soon afterwards, if only because it started getting
site-banned not 4 hours after the game was released).

Yes, the game is nice, I play it networked quite often,
although the regular game bores me to tears. I would prefer
something with a little more to it than routine "open the
door, kill the monster, take big gun", especially given the
potential for multiplayer interaction. I find a claim that
they are the best games programmers in the world to be a
little extreme, given what they produced.

This is interesting not to say enlightning to me, because that guy could have been a soul mate of mine.
That's exactly how I've felt about playing Doom in the 90s/early 2000s when I played the shareware version.
I too couldn't understand the fascination it awoke in other people.
I had thought that the technology was already there, if not beyond that.

The 16-Bit games on the consoles of the time did appeal me much more.
Still, reading this news group posts made me help understand how much Doom means to the people (to grasp the dimension of it).
Even back in the day it already had a cult following, for reason I still must (want) to learn to understand.

Interestingly, the other "camp" of Windows game programmers are participating the discussion, too.
Like the author of Comet Busters!, a Windows 3.1 shareware game I loved to play on a 286!

It's interesting in so far, because Comet Busters! had used its own graphics library and wavemix dll for graphics/sound output, before using WinG in later versions.
I know that from my own experience, because WinG didn't work on a 286 (in Windows Standard-Mode).

Another notable Windows 3.1 game I played was the The Adventures of MicroMan, which had used a custom Windows graphics engine, too.

Anyway, just saying. Doom fans probably couldn't care less about the Windows 3.1 gaming days of old.
It just came to mind and I thought I should mention it, as a counter example.
Because the non-Doom fans otherwise have no voice here sofar.

But don't worry, people who thought different will likely be forgotten by history.
In the books of history, Doom will be remembered as the greatest thing invented since sliced bread.

People of the future will believe that all of us, by 100%, were absolute Doom fans and that we ran around with Doom merchandise all day long.

Just like those modern 80s and 90s pictures on the internet that portray these decades using stereotypes (80s being all neon coloured like a night bar etc).

Edit: Here's another bit from same users as above.

If you've written something better than _Doom_, by all means, : > let us see it so that we may marvel at your genius. Personally […]
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If you've written something better than _Doom_, by all means,
: > let us see it so that we may marvel at your genius. Personally, I suspect
: > you're all talk and no talent.
:
: Well, I have written a program that's much much better than that awful
: game "Doom"! The program is quite small and written in GW-BASIC, and
: hereby I donate it to the public domain:
:
: 10 PRINT "Peace"
: 20 GOTO 10
:
: If you insist that "Doom" is a better program than my little program
: above, I suggest that you enroll as volunteer in e.g. Bosnia or Rwanda.
: There you'll experience similar stuff -- not just in a game but in REAL LIFE!!
: Wouldn't THAT be something?

Listen, there is a difference between killing someone in a game and
killing someone in real life. I often play violent games to get rid
of violent energy in my system. I get the same satisfaction I would
get if I chose to slam shut doors, but nothing gets damaged when I
play violent games such as Wolfenstein 3d or Wing Commander. (I don't
have Doom, my computer (16MHz 386SX, 2Mb RAM) sucks.)

My apologies if that's a provoking quote, but these are the kind of thoughts that I used to have, too.
Even way back in the 90s already, when Doom was young.
I wondered if people into shooters have violent impulses, too
and if they're into guns and if they would enjoy killing in real life, too. No kidding.

But maybe that's just me!? When I was little, my grandmother told me about the horrors of WW2 when she was just a little girl.
The bombs that fell on the houses in the neighborhood, the cries of dying people, white phosphor burning people alive..
These stories convinced me early on that violence is no solution and that this isn't my way.

So I ended up playing arcades games, snake games and space games rather.
Like Lunar Lander, WinTrek, puzzle games and do on.
For some reason, I never felt the excitement to watch slasher movies, either.
I always wondered why people enjoy pain of others so much, when all I was felt was sadness.

Edit: Here's another one. I think that might explain why shooters always made me feel uncanny a bit.
Anyway, I think this will be the last quote/edit here, otherwise it's too much.

Listen, there is a difference between killing someone in a game and > killing someone in real life. […]
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Listen, there is a difference between killing someone in a game and
> killing someone in real life.

Indeed -- a simulation cannot live up to the real thing. I run flight
simulators because I wouldn't mind flying a real plane, right? Why do
people run killing simulators?

But you're right that running a killing simulator at least does not
cause any immediate physical damage -- but what about the long-term
mental damage of the player?

> I often play violent games to get rid of violent energy in my system.
> I get the same satisfaction I would get if I chose to slam shut doors,
> but nothing gets damaged when I play violent games such as ............

Not very much get damaged by slamming doors shut either (unless you live
in a house almost falling abart). But did you ever think about how and
why this "violent energy" ever got into your system? Wouldn't it be better
to try to prevent it from getting into your system, or at least from
influencing you that much? Suppose your boss harasses you at your job.
You get frustrated and go home to play some "Doom" to get it "out of your
system", perhaps pretending it's your boss you shoot down. Then you get
back to work, where nothing has changed - your boss still harasses you.
Wouldn't it be better to do something about it than to just escape into
some silly game, and during a particularly bad day perhaps use a real
shotgun?

People who really never ever would kill somebody, they wouldn't run these
"killing simulators" either. After all, if you're completely uninterested
in doing something in real life, why run a computer simulation of it?

DracoNihil wrote on 2024-11-17, 06:11:

I wonder how old of Windows NT you can run WinQuake on though, with just DIB and WaveOut...

Without testing I would guess it won't be newer than NT4

Jo22 wrote on 2025-01-16, 05:59:

This is interesting not to say enlightning to me, because that guy could have been a soul mate of mine. That's exactly how I've […]
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This is interesting not to say enlightning to me, because that guy could have been a soul mate of mine.
That's exactly how I've felt about playing Doom in the 90s/early 2000s when I played the shareware version.
I too couldn't understand the fascination it awoke in other people.
I had thought that the technology was already there, if not beyond that.
...
Anyway, just saying. Doom fans probably couldn't care less about the Windows 3.1 gaming days of old.
...
People of the future will believe that all of us, by 100%, were absolute Doom fans and that we ran around with Doom merchandise all day long.

IMHO Doom came along just at the right time with the right combination, Lets compare it to Wolf3d
Even though the John's code is highly optimised, computer processing power had improved enough that you could now create more detailed worlds instead of the square single-story room of Wol3d.
The art style went for a more teen oriented gritty feel then cartoon-ish style of Wolf
The "storyline" left alot more to your own imagination. much like how many people prefer the book to the movie. WW2 being real doesn't give as much freedom.
Really good music

All this really helped immerse you into the Doom world, now the ability to play with friends as humans are a social species and also appeal to our competitive nature and sure the game was always going to do well, especially if you give away for free as shareware. (I still miss shareware)
it was also one of the first games that developed a modding community, more due to the popularity of the game but ID were smart enough to encourage this ensuring it stayed relevant for much longer.

I'm not into 3D shooters but Doom is one of those games that I do play every year or so. It's immersive, simple enough to jump right, clearing a map is satisfying all while listing to some rocking tunes.
I found RTS's much more fun but have more of a learning curve then dooms arcade style just shoot everything gameplay.

I think Doom's legacy is deserved, but just as history would suggest everyone was playing Half Life in the late 90's you can't always believe history!

Jo22 brings some interesting points. I can't see guns in real life. Media in general seems to normalize violence.

I recently realized there are games with naughty content on Steam. But they're locked behind login and you have to relax default filters to see them while violent stuff is in plain sight.