VOGONS


Backing up a Hardcard+ from a 5150

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First post, by gordon-creAtive.com

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After reaching an important life goal I recently rewarded myself by acquiring an IBM 5150. The computer belonged to the deceased father of the person I bought this thing from. It was in an unknown condition and had a view surprises up its sleeves, besides a leaked Varta battery on an RAM expansion the PC included a Hardcard+. Initially it didn't wanted to start, but after a fistbump it spun up and now it's humming along fine.

However there are personal documents on the drive. I want to mirror the whole drive (so I don't have to look into the files) and give it to the seller, but I'm at a loss on how to achieve this.

If this would have been an MFM drive, I guess I could have used XT IDE to copy everything to a CF/SD card, but I don't think that this will work here. My understanding is that the Option ROM on the card needs to boot in order to make the drive accessible - this can't work if XT-IDE boots instead, is that correct?

If my assumption is correct, do you have any ideas on how to backup this data? The drive is currently running in a 5160 mainboard I own, but I wondered if using a newer motherboard (eg with IDE support) might open some possibilities.

Last edited by gordon-creAtive.com on 2024-11-01, 17:26. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 22, by BinaryDemon

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Maybe connect up a Gotek Floppy Emulator? assuming the floppy disk controller works.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 2 of 22, by gordon-creAtive.com

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This indeed works, already tried it, but how would you go about creating the backup? I'm limited to 360k floppies... and I don't have any idea how I could "split" this drive up into multiple floppies.

Reply 3 of 22, by weedeewee

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possibilities are plenty for backup, a zip drive if you have it, a network card... a laplink cable, or a serial nulmodem cable and a program like fastlynx together with a second pc.

as for the hardcard needing a bump, videos can be found showing the culprit and how to resolve it. gooified rubber stopper.

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
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Reply 4 of 22, by BinaryDemon

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I believe most of the dos file compression programs like pkzip, arj, ect had command line options for chunking the output in standard floppy sizes.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 5 of 22, by DaveDDS

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Does the 5150 have a network card?
Does it have a parallel port?
Does it have a serial port?
Does it have a working floppy drive?

My DDLINK will run on an 8088, and can move files/directories over LAN, LPT or COM
It's a single 17k .COM file, does not have to be installed etc.

To use LAN you would need a NIC and a packet driver for that card.
To use LPT you need only a "special cable" (DDLINK help shows how to make the cable)
To use COM you need a "null-modem" cable ""
(it can copy whole directory trees - LAN and LPT are fast! - COM is much slower)

If you have working floppy, you can put DDLINK.COM on it and run it from there.
If you don't, DDLINK can "bootstrap" itself to a new system via a serial cable.

DDLINK is a 16-bit program that runs under DOS - it does work well in DosBox (LAN and COM - I've not gotten LPT to work under DosBox)

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 6 of 22, by DaveDDS

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gordon-creAtive.com wrote on 2024-11-01, 17:04:

The drive is currently running in a 5160 mainboard I own, but I wondered if using a newer motherboard (eg with IDE support) might open some possibilities.

Does the hard-card need special drivers? If so, you would need to get them off the 5150 first.

If you have a newer system that will take the card, you should be able to just make a boot-floppy with whatever drivers are
needed, put in the hard-card and an target IDE drive (with no other drives) - and use simple XCOPY/S to backup the directories

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 7 of 22, by gordon-creAtive.com

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Thank you for the suggestions. I feel like trying to use a serial cable to copy files is the simplest route, either with ddlink or fastlynx. I'll give it a try, but first I have to find my null-modem cable...

Does the hard-card need special drivers? If so, you would need to get them off the 5150 first.

I need to investigate. If serial cable doesn't work I'll try the drive in a different PC. So far my assumption has been that the Option ROM takes care of making the drive accessible, but it has just been an assumption.

Reply 8 of 22, by DaveDDS

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gordon-creAtive.com wrote on 2024-11-04, 09:08:

Thank you for the suggestions. I feel like trying to use a serial cable to copy files is the simplest route, either with ddlink or fastlynx. I'll give it a try, but first I have to find my null-modem cable...

DDLINK ?
will show command line help

DDLINK ?C
Show diagram for null-modem cable (if you need to make one)
- Note that if you have working floppy to access DDLINK - it needs only a 3-wire Null-Modem cable.
- If you have to use DDLINK's "serial bootstrap" to get it onto the system, DOS needs 4 more wires (7 total).

DDLINK ?L
Shows diagram for parallel data-transfer cable ("")

I made up little adapters from DB-25M and DB-25F connectors separated from each other by about 1"
on little tubes for both, each wired to make the needed connections to turn a 25-25 pin DB cable
into one of the corresponding type. Comes in very handy when I need either one, and easily fits into
my "connection stuff" box (and old multi-watch case - about 16 little compartments in a sturdy
box)

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 9 of 22, by eisapc

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Interlnk and Interserve will work the same way as DDLINK. It comes bundled with later Versions of MS-DOS (at least 6.22), but does not relay on the installed DOS Version.
It is proved working with 8088 on my Bondwell XT Laptop connecting to an 286 server via parallel.
The cable description can be found calling "help interlnk".

Laplink is another similar product.

Reply 10 of 22, by mdog69

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A 8 bit hardcard is just an 8bit MFM or RLL controller card with a bracket for a matching hard drive.

In the mists of time (sometime in the 2000s) I took an image of an ST238R hard drive by plugging the ST11R adapter into a 486 box running an old version of Linux (most likely Slackware 4.0).
I recompiled the (2.2) kernel to include CONFIG_DEV_BLK_XD which supports XT hard disc controllers. System booted off the main IDE system disc, I then used dd to create an image of the file.
Note that support for xt controllers was pulled after kernel version 3.8
To find out if the controller on the Hardcard+ is compatible, the best bet is to look at the header that the option ROM spits out and then look at the Linux kernel source (https://mirrors.edge.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/ look in drivers/block/xt.c and search for XD_SIGNATURE)

I were to do this job again in 2024, I would install the hard card in a 386/486/Pentium box with an ISA network card, create a pair of Slackware 4.0[1] root[2]+boot[3] floppies, boot from the floppies, confirm that the kernel can see the XT drive [4] configure networking[5] and mount an NFS share on a server[6], capture the partition table data using the output of fdisk -l , dump the whole hard drive using dd, dump individual partitions using dd, then shutdown.

[1] Slackware 4.0 because the root floppy contains the stuff needed to do the NFS, a full install to a virtual machine can be done in under 10 minutes, and the kernel compiled from scratch takes less than 10 minutes on a VM.
[2] Steal the config file for the net.i kernel from https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.slack … /kernels/net.i/ , then enable CONFIG_DEV_BLK_XD and recompile
[3] Use the text.gz root image. If that has networking/NFS binaries missing, use the pcmcia image instead.
[4] cat /proc/partitions and look for "xda" entries.
[5] ifconfig eth0 <ip> netmask <netmask> up
[6] /sbin/rpc.portmap ; mkdir /mnt/nfs ; mount <server ip>:/path/to/nfsshare /mnt/nfs

I used a variation of this method a few months ago to dump the hard drive of a telecoms tester running Windows 95. The hard drive was installed inside a chassis which would require a complete dismantle to access (not practical for just a backup). The box had two PCMCIA card slots, a 3.5" floppy drive, and no USB sockets.
With a 3C589 PCMCIA card installed, I used the bare.u and pcmcia.gz images to boot into Linux, and the steps below to dump the drive.
(I also tried dumping to a CF card in a PCMCIA adapter, but had issues with the card geometry that couldn't be bothered to fix and moved straight on to NFS)

Login as root
ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.245 netmask 255.255.255.0 up
Ping from server side to check (no ping on root disk).
/sbin/rpc.portmap
mount 192.168.0.3:/home/data/backup /mnt
cd /mnt
mkdir <backup dir>
cd <backup dir>

The only hiccup was that the NFS client refused to create files larger than 1Gb, and the hard drive was 1.something.
The workaround was to use to commands to dump the C drive partition dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/mnt/nfs/hda1-1.dd bs=512 followed by dd if=/dev/hda1 if=hda1-2 bs=512 skip=2097152
Note that for an xt drive the device names will be called xda (whole disc) , xda1 (first partition) not hda.

Hope this is useful.

Reply 11 of 22, by DaveDDS

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eisapc wrote on 2024-11-04, 12:43:
Interlnk and Interserve will work the same way as DDLINK. It comes bundled with later Versions of MS-DOS (at least 6.22), but d […]
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Interlnk and Interserve will work the same way as DDLINK. It comes bundled with later Versions of MS-DOS (at least 6.22), but does not relay on the installed DOS Version.
It is proved working with 8088 on my Bondwell XT Laptop connecting to an 286 server via parallel.
The cable description can be found calling "help interlnk".

Laplink is another similar product.

Agreed, and INTERLNK/SVR is probably your only option if you want to share/access a drive.
I've used interlnk a lot with DOS5 and some earlier.

DDLINKs main advantages are that it doesn't have to be "installed", no need to edit/configure system files (like CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT)
is a single 17k .COM (easy to move around) and can "bootstrap" itself to another system over a serial link.
[I wrote it because (at the time) I needed a super-simple way to move stiff to/from systems not set up to do so]

To quote another (non-Vogons) forum: "DDLINK was by far the easiest to configure and use."

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 12 of 22, by Intel486dx33

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Installing a Network card would be Best.
I use a 3com 3c509b network cards in my 386 and 486 and pentium computers with ISA slots.
Works great in DOS and Win3x and Win95
It’s the Most popular Network card with driver support in allot of operating systems.

I use it with a WIFI extender that connects to my Modern Router.
I use a Linksys WIFI extender but I used a TP-Link before that also works great.

Then you could copy the entire contents of your hard drive to a NAS, USB thumb drive, or other computer.
Use the “xcopy” command
E.g. Xcopy C:\*.*

Or if you have a working parrallel port you could use a Zip drive

Reply 13 of 22, by DaveDDS

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If anyone wants a decent little DOS networking package:

NEOS.NET is a little peer-to-peer DOS network that was released in 1995.
I used it for quite a few years back in the day and it worked well.

IIRC it provides only one network "drive" - remote systems show up as a root
directory of that drive, and their shared directories as sub-directories below
that.

It uses a "Crynwr Packet Driver" to access the network card (there are MANY
available covering almost all NICs used in DOS systems).

I've done some looking with google and I've not found any reference to it
anywhere now(2024)... but -- This in included in it's README:
----------------------------------------------------
LICENCE AGREEMENT

NeOS 1.x is distributed as a POSTCARDWARE (i.e. FREEWARE).

With this copy of NeOS you can connect 5 computers, which is, I believe,
enough for personal use. Fell free to experiment and evaluate NeOS, and if
you find it usable, instead of sending me some money (which I know you
wouldn't) send me a postcard and become a registered NeOS user.
----------------------------------------------------

So I do think I can make it available on my site if anyone wants...
I have these original distribution files:
99-07-29 2:16a 209,435 NEOS-151.ZIP <- Original NEOS.NET
99-07-29 2:16a 251,823 NEOS-DL.ZIP <- "" for DiskLess
99-07-29 2:16a 216,718 NEOS-XT.ZIP <- "" for XT/8088
01-02-14 5:55a 10,881 NSETUP.ZIP <- I wrote a better SETUP for it

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 14 of 22, by xa3d

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FYI:
NeOS version 1.5.1 was released in Feb of 1995 and is still available at the same address as published in the NeOS.MAN file since the file was created 1/1/1995
FULL PACKAGE available at: http://ftp.carnet.hr/pub/pub/pc/networking/NeOS/

LICENCE AGREEMENT {as per the README file}

"...NeOS 1.x is distributed as a POSTCARDWARE (i.e. FREEWARE).

With this copy of NeOS you can connect 5 computers, which is, I believe,
enough for personal use. Fell free to experiment and evaluate NeOS, and if
you find it usable, instead of sending me some money (which I know you
wouldn't) send me a postcard and become a registered NeOS user..."

"...HARDWARE & SOFTWARE REQUIREMENTS

- 286 or higher microprocessor (*)
- DOS 5.0 or higher
- 256KB RAM
- 350KB disk space (C:) (**) {implies Hard Disk required}
- NE2000 compatible card (or any other ethernet card with packet
or NDIS driver) ..."

***NOTE: It would be interesting to see your NSETUP.zip. Where is that available?

Reply 15 of 22, by DaveDDS

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xa3d wrote on 2024-11-05, 15:43:

FYI:
NeOS version 1.5.1 was released in Feb of 1995 and is still available at the same address as published in the NeOS.MAN file since the file was created 1/1/1995
FULL PACKAGE available at: http://ftp.carnet.hr/pub/pub/pc/networking/NeOS/

Ha... I didn't even think to check that (guess I assumed it was very old, possibly moved and Google would have found it by now!

LICENCE AGREEMENT {as per the README file} "...NeOS 1.x is distributed as a POSTCARDWARE (i.e. FREEWARE). With this copy of […]
Show full quote

LICENCE AGREEMENT {as per the README file}

"...NeOS 1.x is distributed as a POSTCARDWARE (i.e. FREEWARE).

With this copy of NeOS you can connect 5 computers, which is, I believe,
enough for personal use. Fell free to experiment and evaluate NeOS, and if
you find it usable, instead of sending me some money (which I know you
wouldn't) send me a postcard and become a registered NeOS user..."

"...HARDWARE & SOFTWARE REQUIREMENTS

- 286 or higher microprocessor (*)
- DOS 5.0 or higher
- 256KB RAM
- 350KB disk space (C:) (**) {implies Hard Disk required}
- NE2000 compatible card (or any other ethernet card with packet
or NDIS driver) ..."

***NOTE: It would be interesting to see your NSETUP.zip. Where is that available?

In addition to NEOS-151.ZIP, I also have:
NEOS-XT.ZIP (is supposed to work on 8088)
NEOS-DL.ZIP (diskless, apparaently works from floppy)

I've not made NSETUP available ... but I certainly can. I'll look into postine the files I have on my site sometime within the next few days.

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 17 of 22, by DaveDDS

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DaveDDS wrote on 2024-11-06, 11:04:

I've not made NSETUP available ... but I certainly can. I'll look into posting the files I have on my site sometime within the next few days.

Ok, I've updated my site with the NEOS files that I was using "back in the day".

MySite(below) -> DownloadFiles -> Older(near bottom)->ThirdPartyFiles(also near bottom)

If you've visited my site before, don't forget to refresh to make sure browser not showing older/cached pages!

(at some point this will get added to my source-code "retirement project" as well)

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 18 of 22, by weedeewee

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DaveDDS wrote on 2024-11-07, 12:39:
Ok, I've updated my site with the NEOS files that I was using "back in the day". […]
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DaveDDS wrote on 2024-11-06, 11:04:

I've not made NSETUP available ... but I certainly can. I'll look into posting the files I have on my site sometime within the next few days.

Ok, I've updated my site with the NEOS files that I was using "back in the day".

MySite(below) -> DownloadFiles -> Older(near bottom)->ThirdPartyFiles(also near bottom)

If you've visited my site before, don't forget to refresh to make sure browser not showing older/cached pages!

(at some point this will get added to my source-code "retirement project" as well)

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Well, at this moment in time whatever changes you've made & added, haven't yet been propagated througout the interwebs. tried in two browsers. Will have to wait a little longer I guess.

Please don't try to explain to me how the interwebs work. I'm not a spider.

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Do not ask Why !
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Serial_port

Reply 19 of 22, by DaveDDS

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weedeewee wrote on 2024-11-07, 12:45:
DaveDDS wrote on 2024-11-07, 12:39:

Ok, I've updated my site with the NEOS files that I was using "back in the day".

MySite(below) -> DownloadFiles -> Older(near bottom)->ThirdPartyFiles(also near bottom)

If you've visited my site before, don't forget to refresh to make sure browser not showing older/cached pages!

Well, at this moment in time whatever changes you've made & added, haven't yet been propagated througout the interwebs. tried in two browsers. Will have to wait a little longer I guess.

Please don't try to explain to me how the interwebs work. I'm not a spider.

I confirmed that it was updated on my site immediately after uploading, and it was.

To do this (I'm using CHROME) I went to the site location described above, and...

At first chrome didn't show the new files -- that's because I had visited the site before and chrome had
"caches" site pages so that it can appear faster by not spending the time/bandwidth to reload the page!

As soon as I hit "Reload this page" (in chrome this looks like a little circle with an arrow within its circumference at the top left,
just to the right if "<- ->") ... the files because visible on the page!

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal