VOGONS


First post, by Kordanor

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Hey there!
About 2 years ago I made the decision to build a old PC from Real Hardware of the 90s, partially also inspired by the Videos from Phil I decided for the Super Socket 7 platform to create one PC to cover most of the 90s. I wanted to combine nostalgia (especially the case) with pragmatism, as I don't want to have 1 dedicated PC for each 2 years of games.

About one year ago I had all the parts together and started assembling and testing. I had the idea to make a video from that right away, but initially thought to just make one video. Then I quickly realized...it's getting to much, so I ended up making 4 videos instead:
1 Video for PC Component Choices and Assembly
1 Video for the Choice of Graphics card specifically
1 Video for a custom Clockspeed changing "device"
1 Video for testing out various games, showcasing compatibility issues and solutions for these (if possible)

So in this thread I'd like to present these videos. I will create a post for each Video and post about the content, so you don't need to watch everything and can check those out which catch your interest.

Reply 1 of 21, by Kordanor

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This is basically the main video, in this one I talk about the goal and the choice of the components, aseemble them and then finally conclude it with some benchmarks.
The goal was to create just one PC to cover most of the 90s, starting from the early VGA erea, the 3dfx and early 3d hardware acceleration era and then go into the 90s as far as possible.
After I first tinkered around with some other hardware I finally settled on the Super Socket 7, also inspired by Phils Time Machine videos. I then went through multiple CPUs as well.
The hardware I settled on is:

Board: SS7 ASCORP (1542A1)
CPU: AMD K6 II 500MHz & K6 II+ 570MHz
Case: Vobis/Highscreen Desktop
Grafics Card: Voodoo 3 3500 (Compaq Version)
ISA Sound (DOS): ESS 1868F
PCI Sound (WIN): Soundblaster Live
CD Drive: Plextor Plexwriter 12/10/32A
All Fans by Noctua

Last edited by Kordanor on 2024-11-04, 20:02. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 2 of 21, by Kordanor

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This video spans much wider than just the graphics card for the PC I wanted to build, but I wanted to show a general overview. So I am covering a wide range of graphics cards of the 90s, including also a timechart to give a good overview, taking S3, Cirrus Logic, Nvidia, AMD/ATI and 3dfx as main players to show important milestones.
However in this video I am also talking about different ISA, PCI and AGP connectors, about VGA, DVI and HDMI connections and compatibility issues, a bit about scaling and 3d accelerators including 3dfx, direct3d, opengl (the exotic ones like S3d and PowerVR are just mentioned briefly).

Last edited by Kordanor on 2024-11-04, 20:02. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 3 of 21, by Kordanor

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Initially I went with a standard AMD K6 II without the "+", meaning that you would notmally only set the clockspeed on the board and that's it. However I actually started out accidentally with a board (PCChips M598), which lets you freely set the multiplier and BUS Speed in the BIOS, so I was a bit disappointed to find out that this isn't the norm. Unfortunately this board doesn't have an AGP slot, which I wanted to you, so I switched to another board and had to think of alternative solutions for the PC. So my idea was to remotely set the jumpers on the baord. First using a On-On Switch, and then I soldered together a little Circuit Board using Bistable Relais and connected this to the turbo button. That way I can switch between two different jumper settings using the turbo button. While I ultimately upgraded to An AMD K6 2+ where you can freely set the multiplier, this is still valuable as it can be used to set the clockspeed. Enabling me to go from 60MHz Bus speed (and a multiplier of 2) up to a Bus Speed of 100MHz at a multiplier of 6.

Last edited by Kordanor on 2024-11-04, 20:02. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 4 of 21, by Kordanor

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In this final video I put the PC to the test, checking out various games of the 90s with a focus on games which actually cause problems of some sorts, either on my hardware or on other hardware or emulation. I will also show various workarounds and solutions. Games checked are:
1989 Wasteland 1 (CPU Speed-Problem)
1990 Wizardry 6 (CPU Speed-Problem)
1990 Wing Commander 1 (CPU Speed-Problem)
1991 Commander Keen 4 (Problem with other graphics cards)
1991 Might and Magic 3 (Sound Problem with Adlib/SB)
1992 Alone in the Dark (CPU Speed-Problem)
1992 Ultima 7 The Black Gate (CPU Speed-Problem, Patch/Fix)
1993 Day of the Tentacle (CPU Speed-Problem leading to sound issues (not encountered))
1993 Lands of Lore (Volume / Mixer is being modified and needs to be locked)
1994 Theme Park (CPU Speed-Problem leading to inconsistencies)
1994 Hanse – Die Expedition (CPU Speed-Problem in emultaiton, grapics glitches and "click" through as well as error 200)
1995 Hi-Octane (CPU Speed-Problem)
1996 Kingdom o' Magic (Only CPU speed issues in DOSBox)
1996 Toonstruck (Sound issues and issues with UNIVBE running on 640x400, Options Menu being green and colors being off)
1996 Tomb Raider (3dfx Voodoo 3 compatibility Problem)
1996 Die Fugger 2 (15 Bit Color Depth not compatible with Voodoo 3)
1996 Bleifuss 2 / Screamer 2 (3dfx Voodoo 3 und UniVBE Problem)
1997 GTA 1 (3dfx Voodoo 3 und UniVBE Problem, 512x384 Resolution Problem with Black Screen)
1997 Lands of Lore 2 (3dfx Voodoo 3 with glitches and UniVBE Problem with Flickering, Direct3D issues)
1997 Hexen 2 (Limitations on settings and interface scaling)
1997 Jedi Knight (Performance Check)
1998 Redline Racer (Performance Check, potential CPU Speed issues)
1998 Unreal 1 (Performance Check)
1998 Half Life 1 (Performance Check)
1999 Might and Magic 7 (Performance Check, Sound stutter on modern hardware)
1999/2000 (EU) Ultima 9 (Performance Check)
2000 No One Lives Forever (Performance Check)

Reply 5 of 21, by Pino

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Just watched the main Video, my main Win98 machine is very similar to what you built, so I went through most of the struggles.
Very detailed video and great for anyone willing to learn.

Reply 6 of 21, by Kordanor

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Pino wrote on 2024-11-04, 20:19:

Just watched the main Video, my main Win98 machine is very similar to what you built, so I went through most of the struggles.
Very detailed video and great for anyone willing to learn.

Thank you! I also especially hope that the fourth video with the game-journey will be helpful to people with a Voodoo 3 card trying to play some of these games. Some of these have been a real pain to solve ^^

Reply 7 of 21, by RetroPCCupboard

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Excellent series of videos. I watched them all. They were very educational and well presented. Well done!

I think many people want a single PC that can do it all. Unfortunately such a PC doesn't exist. There will always be compatability and speed issues with certain games.

I have decided to go the opposite direction and create a set of several PCs to cover the Win9x period. Though for DOS I am doing similar to you but using a Pentium MMX (like Philscomputerlab 136 in one project). I use SETMUL and cache disabling to slow it down. I have been considering a switch to allow the bus speed to be slowed down and the multipliers changed. So your tutorial video on that was helpful.

Reply 8 of 21, by Kordanor

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RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-04, 21:41:

Excellent series of videos. I watched them all. They were very educational and well presented. Well done!

I think many people want a single PC that can do it all. Unfortunately such a PC doesn't exist. There will always be compatability and speed issues with certain games.

I have decided to go the opposite direction and create a set of several PCs to cover the Win9x period. Though for DOS I am doing similar to you but using a Pentium MMX (like Philscomputerlab 136 in one project). I use SETMUL and cache disabling to slow it down. I have been considering a switch to allow the bus speed to be slowed down and the multipliers changed. So your tutorial video on that was helpful.

Cool! Glad it helped or gave inspiration. 😀
Yeah, having one PC to do absolutely everything will be impossible. I will setup a second PC of the early 2000s to basically approach games also from the other side. This should then basically cover everything with just 2 PCs though (well except of games from the 80s).

One advantage of having a smaller amount of computers is not just the space required for the PCs, but also the space required for the monitors. At least for old VGA monitors. As each VGA Card basically has it's own "profile" you couldn't have 2 PCs on the same Screen. In theory you can, but running the same resolution you would then need to constantly readjust the picture. So ideally you'd have one CRT Monitor for each VGA machine. If you use flatscreens however you'd also need compromises with picture quality on scaling and whatnot. Ofc something similar also applies to recording (for the retrotink 4k or datapath you'd need to do a profile for each PC)

Reply 9 of 21, by RetroPCCupboard

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Kordanor wrote on 2024-11-04, 22:04:

Cool! Glad it helped or gave inspiration. 😀
Yeah, having one PC to do absolutely everything will be impossible. I will setup a second PC of the early 2000s to basically approach games also from the other side. This should then basically cover everything with just 2 PCs though (well except of games from the 80s).

Yes, that should be possible. Though not every game will work. Alien vs Predator in particular I think is probably too slow on your current system and has compatability issues with some XP era GPUs. That's probably worth trying on your second machine. Another one that I suspect might not work work on either of your machines is "Heavy Gear" (1997). It is rather a picky game.

Kordanor wrote on 2024-11-04, 22:04:

One advantage of having a smaller amount of computers is not just the space required for the PCs, but also the space required for the monitors. At least for old VGA monitors. As each VGA Card basically has it's own "profile" you couldn't have 2 PCs on the same Screen. In theory you can, but running the same resolution you would then need to constantly readjust the picture. So ideally you'd have one CRT Monitor for each VGA machine. If you use flatscreens however you'd also need compromises with picture quality on scaling and whatnot. Ofc something similar also applies to recording (for the retrotink 4k or datapath you'd need to do a profile for each PC)

I am using a Belkin KvM and a late era Trinitron CRT. It has all controls from on screen menus. But I have not noticed any need to change anything when switching between PCs.

Reply 10 of 21, by melbar

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Perfekt !
Just watching your linked youtube videos.

Thanks for sharing the internet link to a homepage with collections of advertisements. Gives me some memories back!

Had finished my "time-machine" PC in 2020.
1st rebuilt chieftec: super-socket 7 system

With my K6-2 500 only. Don't want to pay the insane prices of K6-2+ or K6-3+ cpu's.
But for me, it is still a proper system. If i need more power, i have the Athlon Thunderbird in place!

#1 K6-2/500, #2 Athlon1200, #3 Celeron1000A, #4 A64-3700, #5 P4HT-3200, #6 P4-2800, #7 Am486DX2-66

Reply 11 of 21, by RetroPCCupboard

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Oh, and Midtown Madness is another late Win9x game that is very picky on hardware

Reply 12 of 21, by RetroPCCupboard

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melbar wrote on 2024-11-05, 07:15:
Had finished my "time-machine" PC in 2020. 1st rebuilt chieftec: super-socket 7 system […]
Show full quote

Had finished my "time-machine" PC in 2020.
1st rebuilt chieftec: super-socket 7 system

With my K6-2 500 only. Don't want to pay the insane prices of K6-2+ or K6-3+ cpu's.
But for me, it is still a proper system. If i need more power, i have the Athlon Thunderbird in place!

Lovely looking machine. Adding a Voodoo 2 to it would add some more compatability with early 3d accelerated titles.

Reply 14 of 21, by melbar

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RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-05, 07:23:
melbar wrote on 2024-11-05, 07:15:
Had finished my "time-machine" PC in 2020. 1st rebuilt chieftec: super-socket 7 system […]
Show full quote

Had finished my "time-machine" PC in 2020.
1st rebuilt chieftec: super-socket 7 system

With my K6-2 500 only. Don't want to pay the insane prices of K6-2+ or K6-3+ cpu's.
But for me, it is still a proper system. If i need more power, i have the Athlon Thunderbird in place!

Lovely looking machine. Adding a Voodoo 2 to it would add some more compatability with early 3d accelerated titles.

Thanks! Yes, a Voodoo 2 card would be a perfect match to my Riva128 or RivaTNT2 card.
But the insane prices are too much for me. I will not buy an old 3dfx card for 80$ , 100$ or more...

Years ago, i've bought two Voodoo2 and one Voodoo1 cards on eBay. Sadly, they were not working, so i have sold them further as 'defective'.
Maybe, there was an issue with the ram only. Or maybe, there was an issue with the processor IC's itself? Who know's .....
But at this time i was not thinking of doing this kind of rework/repair on the Voodoo's.

My option for Glide only games : glide emulation (for example nglide or other wrappers)

#1 K6-2/500, #2 Athlon1200, #3 Celeron1000A, #4 A64-3700, #5 P4HT-3200, #6 P4-2800, #7 Am486DX2-66

Reply 15 of 21, by melbar

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Bruno128 wrote on 2024-11-05, 08:41:

Can K6 go slower than 386-33 with use of utilities?

With the matching chipset, you can even slow down the PC further. Even with a cheap K6-2.
Yes, the K6-2+ or K6-3+ can clock a little lower (133MHz (2x66MHz FSB) or 120MHz (2x60MHz) , when 60MHz FSB is available....)
But it does make not any difference when using additional working software like 'throttle'.

Here are my results with a standard K6-2 CPU and two selected benchmarks.
K6-2 @167Mhz , ram setting to normal / cl=3

K6-2 @167Mhz L1/2 cache disabled
3DBench 1.0 - 9.8 points , PC Player - 2.6 points

K6-2 @167Mhz L1/2 cache disabled , throttle DOS tool: 50%
3DBench 1.0 - 4.7 points , PC Player - 1.3 points

K6-2 @167Mhz L1/2 cache disabled , throttle DOS tool: 75%
3DBench 1.0 - 2.2 points , PC Player - 0.6 points

throttle settings: throttle/DOS
0%, 6.25%, 12.5%, 18.75%, 25%, 31.25%, 37.5%, 43.75%, 50%,
56.25%, 62.5%, 68.75%, 75%, 81.25%, 87.5%, 93.75%

Reference values, here from vogons database: systems with caches disabled

AM386DX-40 REF
3DBench - 15.6 points , PC Player - 4.0 points

AM386SX-33 REF
3DBench - 10.8 points , PC Player - 2.2 points

AM386SX-25 REF
3DBench - 7.0 points , PC Player - 1.5 points

i386DX-16
3DBench - 9.1 points , PC Player - 1.2 points

Result:
Throttle tool is scaling linear.
You can go far below the 286 or 386 speeds.

#1 K6-2/500, #2 Athlon1200, #3 Celeron1000A, #4 A64-3700, #5 P4HT-3200, #6 P4-2800, #7 Am486DX2-66

Reply 16 of 21, by Kordanor

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RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-05, 06:53:
Kordanor wrote on 2024-11-04, 22:04:

Cool! Glad it helped or gave inspiration. 😀
Yeah, having one PC to do absolutely everything will be impossible. I will setup a second PC of the early 2000s to basically approach games also from the other side. This should then basically cover everything with just 2 PCs though (well except of games from the 80s).

Yes, that should be possible. Though not every game will work. Alien vs Predator in particular I think is probably too slow on your current system and has compatability issues with some XP era GPUs. That's probably worth trying on your second machine. Another one that I suspect might not work work on either of your machines is "Heavy Gear" (1997). It is rather a picky game.

I didn't test Heavy Gear or Midtown Madness but Aliens versus Predator is at least well playable on this machine. I played several levels on Marine and a few on Predator side when I got the box and made this short clip:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fSkRpkef0SY
But it's good to know it doesn't run on newer graphics cards. Will make sure to check it out on my other PC once it's ready then.

melbar wrote on 2024-11-05, 07:15:
Perfekt ! Just watching your linked youtube videos. […]
Show full quote

Perfekt !
Just watching your linked youtube videos.

Thanks for sharing the internet link to a homepage with collections of advertisements. Gives me some memories back!

Had finished my "time-machine" PC in 2020.
1st rebuilt chieftec: super-socket 7 system

With my K6-2 500 only. Don't want to pay the insane prices of K6-2+ or K6-3+ cpu's.
But for me, it is still a proper system. If i need more power, i have the Athlon Thunderbird in place!

Nice! Yeah, I don't think you miss a whole lot on the side of the "higher" clockspeeds. That beforementioned AvP maybe, but generally Games from 98 and especially 99 onward are better to be played on other systems anyways, and up to that point it doesn't make too much of a difference I guess. What I feel might be the biggest advantage of the 2+ and 3+ is actually the lower multiplier. But from your values it seems like that's not a massive difference either.
The minimum I can reach without any tools is Chris Bench of 8.8 and 3D Bench of 9.7. Which is just a tiny bit slower than yours. I did try "throttle" but it doesnt work for me. The Slomo tool provided e.g. in Wizardry Archives does work, but it's results felt inconsistent.

Reply 17 of 21, by melbar

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My values: Chris Bench of 9.9 and 3D Bench 1.0 of 9.8 ; 3D Bench 1.0c of 10.6
Your values: Chris Bench of 8.8 and 3D Bench of 9.7

BTW, i've used 3DBench 1.0. Not the c version. Here, i can see differences between 1.0 & 1.0c @ same settings.

There is not much a difference of a delta ~47MHz(CPU) and ~6MHz(FSB) between these two K6 examples.
I can confirm, the most big advantage is, to setup the multiplier via setmul in DOS.
To change myself the clock setting, i have to do the manual way with DIP switches and open PC....

PS: @timestep 23:24 in your first video.
...sometimes, i've used the same exact word's when i had the same issue. 😉

#1 K6-2/500, #2 Athlon1200, #3 Celeron1000A, #4 A64-3700, #5 P4HT-3200, #6 P4-2800, #7 Am486DX2-66

Reply 18 of 21, by Kordanor

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melbar wrote on 2024-11-05, 11:33:
My values: Chris Bench of 9.9 and 3D Bench 1.0 of 9.8 ; 3D Bench 1.0c of 10.6 Your values: Chris Bench of 8.8 and 3D […]
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My values: Chris Bench of 9.9 and 3D Bench 1.0 of 9.8 ; 3D Bench 1.0c of 10.6
Your values: Chris Bench of 8.8 and 3D Bench of 9.7

BTW, i've used 3DBench 1.0. Not the c version. Here, i can see differences between 1.0 & 1.0c @ same settings.

There is not much a difference of 47MHz CPU and 6MHz FSB between these two K6 examples.
I can confirm, the most big advantage is, to setup the multiplier via setmul in DOS.
To change myself the clock setting, i have to do the manual way with DIP switches and open PC....

Ah, alright! So the advantage is a little bit higher. Unless you haven't minimized the BIOS settings to the fullest (note that with "better" BIOS Settings I also ad 3Dbench of 10.7, so I reduced DRam Timing, Disabled GateA20, VGA Frame buffer on top of the external cache to squeeze it even further down, the other settings didnt seem to have an effect).

PS: @timestep 23:24 in your first video.
...sometimes, i've used the same exact word's when i had the same issue. 😉

Haha! 😁

Reply 19 of 21, by Pino

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Kordanor wrote on 2024-11-04, 20:23:
Pino wrote on 2024-11-04, 20:19:

Just watched the main Video, my main Win98 machine is very similar to what you built, so I went through most of the struggles.
Very detailed video and great for anyone willing to learn.

Thank you! I also especially hope that the fourth video with the game-journey will be helpful to people with a Voodoo 3 card trying to play some of these games. Some of these have been a real pain to solve ^^

Maybe a Voodoo Banshee could be a good option for you 😀

I have both a Voodoo 3 and a Banshee, I will try the games you had problem if I have time.