nfraser01 wrote on 2024-11-23, 14:55:

Hi All […]
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Hi All

I've been lucky enought to finally get a PS/2 system. It's a Model 30 286. The main problem is that the floppy drive is faulty (common) and so is the hard dusk (common). Both are proprietary so swapping in alternates is a non-starter.

Soo.. I have an XT-IDE CF adapter which seems to work in this sytem. Having no working floppy drive though, I can't just install PC-DOS to it and there's obviously no optical drive.

What I'd like to do is write an entire hard disk image to CF card in a modern(ish) machine, then not have to worry about the floppy. Having searched I cannot find exactly what I'm after. Has any one come across an image like this (IBM PC-DOS 3.3 or preferably 5.0) ?

My plan B would be to make up a cable to get a standrd floppy working temporarily, but I'm assuming someone else has already had this issue?

Thanks

You can setup a PS/2 machine in PCem/86Box and install everything to an HDD image (img, bin, raw).

When done, use Win32DiskImager on Windows or Gnome Disk Utility on Linux to write the content of the image to your physical CF card.

https://win32diskimager.org/
https://apps.gnome.org/en/DiskUtility/

Good luck! 😃

Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:18:

You can setup a PS/2 machine in PCem/86Box and install everything to an HDD image (img, bin, raw). When done, use Win32DiskImage […]
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You can setup a PS/2 machine in PCem/86Box and install everything to an HDD image (img, bin, raw).
When done, use Win32DiskImager on Windows or Gnome Disk Utility on Linux to write the content of the image to your physical CF card.
https://win32diskimager.org/
https://apps.gnome.org/en/DiskUtility/
Good luck! 😃

Good advice.

Having thought about ity for a bit I'm going to do pretty much that but using real hardware. I've a Dell 386 in rthe corner of the room that should just work...Depends if IBM's PC-DOS does a vendor check before insatlling?

Not sure about the 286 version of the Model 30, but this part let me attach a 1.44mb floppy to replace my non-working original floppy drive in my 8086 Model 30: https://texelec.com/product/ibm-ps2-to-standa … floppy-adapter/

Ironically, the larger challenge was to be able to mount the floppy in the chassis. Found a couple adapters on Thingiverse, one of them worked. Just couldn't find a good 3d print for the faceplate.

Not sure about the 286 (it might do native 1.44mb) but the 8086 version of the Model 30 uses the 1.44 as a 720k drive only (doesn't work with 1.44mb disks). Otherwise, it works great and let me do the setup disks and everything (created on 720k disks on another PC with WinImage)

That said, I rarely use it as the XT-IDE CF card I have works fine. I think I used the floppy to install PC-DOS 7 on the CF card. Lots' o floppies, and annoying as the floppy image maker required true DOS to work (used my 486 pc to do this part). One nice thing about CF cards and XT-IDE is you can set up the CF card on another computer for any DOS, then simply plug it in, voila, fast OS-swap. And the CF card is really useful for loading software as I just plug it into a reader on my modern PC and copy stuff over.

The other issue was needing to do an "FDISK /mbr" on the CF card to let it boot. I think I also FDISKed the CF card on the PS/2 as well (via a dos-floppy disk).

Worth the hassle, though, I figure PC-DOS makes more sense for a PS/2 than MS-DOS !

I should also mention, Pocket 8086's CF card works fine in my PS/2, without any alterations. So if you have one of those, you can likely get booted quickly on the PS/2 as a test.

nfraser01 wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:25:

Depends if IBM's PC-DOS does a vendor check before insatlling?

No no, don't worry. IBM PC DOS 3.3 was perhaps the most generic version of DOS.
The other DOS releases were OEM versions, which shipped with special utilities for proprietary hardware.
PC DOS didn't do this. It was compatible with PC, XT, AT and PS/2 and did pretend that clones didn't exist. 😉

The vendor check did exist on PC-98 series in Japan, though.
There, NEC's MS-DOS had a vendor check, so it would fail on clones.
Epson, a PC-98 clone maker, thus programmed a patch for this and also offered its own OEM version of DOS.
This was just a bit annoying when booter games had been used.
These shipped with MS-DOS, which had the vendor check and needed patching.

Tipp: It might be that your copy of XT-IDE Universal BIOS has trouble with CHS addressing.
If so, try a compact flash card greater in capacity than 512 MB (because a bigger one likely uses LBA).
Anything between 1GB and 8GB should be okay, generally speaking.
Bigger cards may work, too, depends on DOS version.

As far as I know, MS-DOS 6.x has an 8GB limit; it can't see past 8GB.
Or rather, it's included FDISK program has the limit.
DOS 6 may still boot on a larger medium if a third-party FDISK program had been used.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:29:

Not sure about the 286 version of the Model 30, but this part let me attach a 1.44mb floppy to replace my non-working original floppy drive in my 8086 Model 30: https://texelec.com/product/ibm-ps2-to-standa … floppy-adapter/

I know these exist, but want to keep the IBM floppy due to it's blue eject button 😀

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:29:

Ironically, the larger challenge was to be able to mount the floppy in the chassis. Found a couple adapters on Thingiverse, one of them worked. Just couldn't find a good 3d print for the faceplate.

Agreed the drive are *chunky* comparted to standard drives

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:29:

Not sure about the 286 (it might do native 1.44mb) but the 8086 version of the Model 30 uses the 1.44 as a 720k drive only (doesn't work with 1.44mb disks). Otherwise, it works great and let me do the setup disks and everything (created on 720k disks on another PC with WinImage)

The 286 natively supports 1.44MB luckily.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:29:

Worth the hassle, though, I figure PC-DOS makes more sense for a PS/2 than MS-DOS !

Agreed - want to get it "True Blue". I might even try OS/2 v1.3 on it?

Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:33:

No no, don't worry. IBM PC DOS 3.3 was perhaps the most generic version of DOS.
The other DOS releases were OEM versions, which shipped with special utilities for proprietary hardware.
PC DOS didn't do this. It was compatible with PC, XT, AT and PS/2 and did pretend that clones didn't exist. 😉

Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:33:

As far as I know, MS-DOS 6.x has an 8GB limit; it can't see past 8GB.
Or rather, it's included FDISK program has the limit.
DOS 6 may still boot on a larger medium if a third-party FDISK program had been used.

Going to stick to 5.0 max, as that would have been a legit upgrade at the time for systems with more than the default 512K RAM. They woulk have shipped with 3.3 originally but mine has 1MB RAM so want to use those UMB areas, hence the desire for 5.0...

nfraser01 wrote on 2024-11-23, 20:36:

Going to stick to 5.0 max, as that would have been a legit upgrade at the time for systems with more than the default 512K RAM. They woulk have shipped with 3.3 originally but mine has 1MB RAM so want to use those UMB areas, hence the desire for 5.0...

Makes sense! Both MS-DOS/PC-DOS 5 and 6 are a continuation of DOS 3.x, so that's fine! 🙂
The infamous MS-DOS/PC-DOS 4.01 might have been a bit too heavy compared to these three.

By the way, UMBs can be used with DOS 3, too, though, if it is really necessary.
The QuarterDeck QRAM package has utilities for this.
There's also an article about an UMB card that mentions some tools (loadhigh, moremem).
Re: 80x86/Vxx PC emulators with x87, EMS, UMBs and no artificial 640KiB limit ?

If yout think about period-correctness, though, please don't worry about things so much.

Back in the day it was sort of common that the newest DOS version had spread among users around the globe within months.
There always was a colleague, friend or family member around who had a boot disk with latest DOS to share.
MS-DOS and PC-DOS didn't even have a serial number, so there was no fear involved.

What you also could try is DR DOS 5, maybe. It introduced HMA support and forced Microsoft to rush out MS-DOS 5.
Previously, merely Windows /286 had made use of HMA.

nfraser01 wrote on 2024-11-23, 20:33:

I know these exist, but want to keep the IBM floppy due to it's blue eject button 😀

I believe the PS/2 floppy drive failures are tied to capacitors and the repair is well-documented elsewhere; try vcfed or ardent tool of capitalism if you can't find anything

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-11-23, 22:53:

nfraser01 wrote on 2024-11-23, 20:33:

I know these exist, but want to keep the IBM floppy due to it's blue eject button 😀

I believe the PS/2 floppy drive failures are tied to capacitors and the repair is well-documented elsewhere; try vcfed or ardent tool of capitalism if you can't find anything

Sometimes. Though most videos and discussions seem to run into other issues, one repair traced the issue to one of the ICs, and was brought to life only by transplanting the same type of IC from a still-working drive to the bum one.

This was partly why I just got an adapter and fitted a regular 1.44mb drive to my PS/2. Seemed like quite a hassle to get the original drive to work, with low likelihood of success, and likely requiring a donor drive for non capacitor-related issues.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-23, 22:22:

The QuarterDeck QRAM package has utilities for this.

I have this - it has the best documention of PC memory architecture I've ever seen 😀

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-24, 00:01:

Sometimes. Though most videos and discussions seem to run into other issues, one repair traced the issue to one of the ICs, and was brought to life only by transplanting the same type of IC from a still-working drive to the bum one.
This was partly why I just got an adapter and fitted a regular 1.44mb drive to my PS/2. Seemed like quite a hassle to get the original drive to work, with low likelihood of success, and likely requiring a donor drive for non capacitor-related issues.

Tony359 has a video about repairing his Model 30 flopy drive on his YouTube channel...sounds like the one you are referring to...

This is why I'm trying to negate the need for a floppy at all 😀

I wonder if a Gotek comes in a form factor that can be attached via a fake expansion card. You’d effectively lose a slot, but could use the PS/2 floppy adapter and a floppy cable extension to drive it, while keeping the original floppy drive (unconnected) in the front. Maybe a 3d print?

There is! Found this: https://www.printables.com/model/661532-slot- … for-gotek-board

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-24, 19:27:

I wonder if a Gotek comes in a form factor that can be attached via a fake expansion card. You’d effectively lose a slot, but could use the PS/2 floppy adapter and a floppy cable extension to drive it, while keeping the original floppy drive (unconnected) in the front. Maybe a 3d print?

Nice idea!

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-24, 19:31:

There is! Found this: https://www.printables.com/model/661532-slot- … for-gotek-board

Actually that looks kinda cool...

Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:33:

No no, don't worry. IBM PC DOS 3.3 was perhaps the most generic version of DOS. The other DOS releases were OEM versions, which […]
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nfraser01 wrote on 2024-11-23, 17:25:

Depends if IBM's PC-DOS does a vendor check before insatlling?

No no, don't worry. IBM PC DOS 3.3 was perhaps the most generic version of DOS.
The other DOS releases were OEM versions, which shipped with special utilities for proprietary hardware.
PC DOS didn't do this. It was compatible with PC, XT, AT and PS/2 and did pretend that clones didn't exist. 😉

Hi there again!
Do you remember how I recommended PC-DOS last year? 😃
- I've just found something interesting in the manual of an old PC emulator that dates back to 1986-1988.

It does (did) recommend to get a copy of IBM PC-DOS, too.
In fact, it says (said) that HDD support is (was) supported for PC-DOS only (at the time).

Of course, using other DOSes was no problem most of the time, either.
But it at least supports my statement that PC-DOS (PC-DOS 3.3) was fine for generic PCs (I didn't say nonsense, in short).

Also, DOS 3.2 was standard at the time and 3.3x was brand new.
So newer DOSes aren’t being mentioned yet (such as MS-DOS 5 or DR DOS 5).

I've attached a low-res scan of the manual's page below.

Jo22 wrote on 2025-02-05, 04:53:

Hi there again! Do you remember how I recommended PC-DOS last year? 😃 - I've just found something interesting in the manual of a […]
Show full quote

Hi there again!
Do you remember how I recommended PC-DOS last year? 😃
- I've just found something interesting in the manual of an old PC emulator that dates back to 1986-1988.

It does (did) recommend to get a copy of IBM PC-DOS, too.
In fact, it says (said) that HDD support is (was) supported for PC-DOS only (at the time).

Of course, using other DOSes was no problem most of the time, either.
But it at least supports my statement that PC-DOS (PC-DOS 3.3) was fine for generic PCs (I didn't say nonsense, in short).

Interesting..an IBM PC emulator for Atari ST 😀

I know Compaq DOS had special tweaks to allow it to use larger hard drives/partitions than standard MS-DOS...

nfraser01 wrote on 2025-02-05, 12:40:

Interesting..an IBM PC emulator for Atari ST 😀

Hi, yes indeed! 🙂

It is/was very slow and basic (no Hercules or Olivetti video) but emulated an PC/XT from 1981 quite convincingly.

It also offered 703 KB of RAM (excellent!), a Microsoft mouse and an HDD.
Serial/Parallel port, too, I think. And the beeper.

There's even a leaflet with supported software that used to be popular (attached).
The list as such is still interesting today, maybe, for better understanding the past.

A friend of mine had a copy of it in his diskette box, too, I recall.
So I can confirm there used to be one real user, at least. 🙂

It's just sad that no Hercules video was available, to run productivity software in a more serious way.
Because I believe that's what a basic IBM PC w/ mono monitor in the office had used by mid-80s, after MDA was made obsolete by Hercules card.
Running, say, Lotus 1-2-3 R2.2 or MS Word 3.1 in plain MDA text-mode worked, but there was no WYSISWYG without it. No charts, no page preview etc.

And CGA was just.. ah, let's not talk about it. Olivetti's DCGA was fine, though. It also did fit the resolution of the Atari STs hi-res mode (640x400 mono), while remaining CGA compatible. It's a mystery to me why it wasn't supported.
Other emulators such as ATonce or PC-Speed finally had Olivetti/T3100 support. 🙂

nfraser01 wrote on 2025-02-05, 12:40:

I know Compaq DOS had special tweaks to allow it to use larger hard drives/partitions than standard MS-DOS...

True! Compaq 3.31 is/was a special OEM version of MS-DOS.
It could handle partitions up to 512 MB, which is similar to older versions of PC-MOS/386 (v3 or so) with their native MOS partition type.

That being said, there also had been third-party utilities to get DOS 3.2 using bigger HDDs.
I don’t know much about them, though. They had been bundled with larger HDDs way back in mid-80s.

Anyway, DOS 3.3 or higher is better for HDD installation anyway.
Nowadays, wouldn't use MS-DOS 2.11 or similarily old DOSes for anything else than boot-up disks or for running older software with a version check.

Such as Windows 2.x, which also can be run using SETVER in MS-DOS 6.22 as well.
Or by using the DOSVER utility (freeware), to fake a specific MS-DOS version permanently.

Norton Utilities and Flight Similulator are on the list so must have been very compatible with the real thing...