Every some time I need to use windows 10 at work, and my god, if i use for more than 10min, give me itching !

UCyborg wrote on 2024-12-02, 20:38:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2002/07/01/4 … ware-is-so-bad/

This was written in 2002, so... Heh, some believe enshitiffication started with none other than XP.

I don't miss legacy Windows, nor the default grey Win9x theme that looks so depressing like it came out of the cemetery. Not that the default whiteness in 10 is much better...but it runs everything I throw at it, no reason to mess with legacy Windows or even Linux for me, though the latter comes in handy for some specific tasks, but as a general desktop OS, tried it, didn't like it, I just encountered a host of other problems and considering I have preference for certain Windows only software, there's no practical gain in that department.

I think the overall state of software in terms of being usable and not crashing all the time, if you include the open source world in the mix, has improved since that article was written.

Wirth's Law remains undefeated, though, unfortunately.

Since NT4 i never have any major problem in stability, not software or OS that i remember

win3x/Win9x was a different story

theelf wrote on 2024-12-02, 21:30:

Every some time I need to use windows 10 at work, and my god, if i use for more than 10min, give me itching !

You’re a very sensitive man - it’s just an OS.

I’ve liked each version of Windows less and less since XP, mostly because they seem to keep hiding stuff from me. Config stuff mostly, but maybe that’s just me getting older and not bothering to learn where they’re putting things. But I suspect it’s just being dumbed down like everything else - I hate my iPhone these days too for similar reasons. Crap being added that I don’t want, and existing stuff getting harder to use.

Everything sucks now that I think of it, I want to go back to 1998 😂

Oh yeah, software certainly lacks efficiency, though seeing how the environments people work in are, crazy deadlines, customers that only bitch and moan etc., what else is there to expect? It's easier than ever to get away with it due to powerful hardware. Though it's interesting seeing with what kind of nonsense MS gets away with (usability degradations), not sure if smaller company could stay afloat with that attitude. And how many people work in the field that genuinely like what they do rather than just for paycheck?

I didn't see the Windows system yet that didn't memory leak over longer uptime. 🤣, modern Samsung's smart phones have occasional reboot as part of their maintenance plan. I have one at work, sometimes it happens that I have to reboot it because calls stop working.

I used to fix bugs in old games. No such thing as "good old times" IMO.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-12-02, 05:32:

Malik wrote on 2024-12-02, 01:53:

And WINE and PROTON have improved considerably

Yes, but with a caveat - old GPUs without Vulkan support are doomed.

Even the ancient Terascale era ATI GPUs that are now well over a decade old might still get Vulkan support in Mesa. A developer called Triang3l is working on such a driver, both for Linux and Windows:

• https://www.phoronix.com/news/Terakan-HD-6000-VLK-Windows
• https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/Triang3l/mesa/ … 2edd9607381bb4f

Also, Wine still also has Gallium Nine to allow DirectX 9 games to run on older graphics cards that only support OpenGL.

For any games newer than DX9 you'd most likely want to use a newer graphics card with Vulkan support anyway.

I've used extensively Win98SE, WinXP, Vista, Win7 and Win10.
I've used a little bit Win8.1 and now I'm adopting Win11 on a couple of systems, including my primary work machine.

I was never the type to be an early adopter, but usually I adapt.
Older operating systems are better suited to older hardware and applications. Newer systems - the opposite.
Since I use both retro and modern stuff, I find myself working with both old and new operating systems.

For a daily driver modern system, I find there is a good amount of usability improvements in Win7 and Win10, that I don't want to live without, and I don't want to use third-party kludges to emulate. Anything from snapping window to screen borders, the snipping tool, the new snipping tool, Win+X menu, Alt+Tab/Win+Tab preview, etc.

Aero looks great. IMO, Vista and Win7 are the pinnacle of desktop UI. However, I can live with Win10.

badmojo wrote on 2024-12-02, 22:18:

theelf wrote on 2024-12-02, 21:30:

Every some time I need to use windows 10 at work, and my god, if i use for more than 10min, give me itching !

You’re a very sensitive man - it’s just an OS.

I feel like we say the same for example of a matress, is just a matress, but the wrong one can be a problem, since we use 5+ hours days in it every day, feel same with OS, but i can say even more, I sleep because i need to, but i work in my computer in my home because i WANT to. Nobody force me to use Windows XP, like nature force me to sleep.

Really love my computer, and spend time with it, and OS is the core, the heart

dr_st wrote on 2024-12-03, 07:19:

For a daily driver modern system, I find there is a good amount of usability improvements in Win7 and Win10, that I don't want to live without, and I don't want to use third-party kludges to emulate. Anything from snapping window to screen borders, the snipping tool, the new snipping tool, Win+X menu, Alt+Tab/Win+Tab preview, etc.

Aero looks great. IMO, Vista and Win7 are the pinnacle of desktop UI. However, I can live with Win10.

For me happen opposite, Aero is horrible, first think i disable in vista or 7, the problem, that this disable composite that is not a bad thing in itself. In windows 10 is possible to have classic+composite at least

Second thing i disable in a XP+ OS is screen borders, tab previews, etc etc all this things make me lost time and slow me down in my work

badmojo wrote on 2024-12-02, 22:18:

I’ve liked each version of Windows less and less since XP, mostly because they seem to keep hiding stuff from me. Config stuff mostly, but maybe that’s just me getting older and not bothering to learn where they’re putting things.

It was the same with WinXP itself until SP2...I didn't like it, but then got into it. But WinXP is the last one...Vista maybe can be configured to be very similar, but 7 and up not.

badmojo wrote on 2024-12-02, 22:18:

I hate my iPhone these days too for similar reasons. Crap being added that I don’t want, and existing stuff getting harder to use.

The move from iOS 6 to 7 was great, it was like switching from DOS to Windows...but in the last years there has been added more and more "What do I need this for?" stuff...and always they change something which you have accustomed to. Annoying.

badmojo wrote on 2024-12-02, 22:18:

Everything sucks now that I think of it, I want to go back to 1998 😂

Not everything, but some to many things.

dr_st wrote on 2024-12-03, 07:19:

Aero looks great. IMO, Vista and Win7 are the pinnacle of desktop UI.

Yes...on first sight. I really was astonished back then when I saw it first. But after a very short while I switched it to "classic", like Luna on WinXP. Aero is simply impractical for working with a PC...it's just useless eye candy.

kind regards
soggi

I ran xp looking like 2k pretty much from the last beta(rtm as it turned out), through to 7.
Now is really only their moving things that annoys me.
It's crossed my mind to build a powershell classic control panel as a learning exercise, but time...

soggi wrote on 2024-12-03, 10:47:

dr_st wrote on 2024-12-03, 07:19:

Aero looks great. IMO, Vista and Win7 are the pinnacle of desktop UI.

Yes...on first sight. I really was astonished back then when I saw it first. But after a very short while I switched it to "classic", like Luna on WinXP. Aero is simply impractical for working with a PC...it's just useless eye candy.

For me it was the other way around. For a few years I ran Vista in classic mode, because I was used to it, and it felt "right". Then I tried Aero and was like "wait a minute, there is nothing wrong with it". Eye candy is not supposed to be "useful". It is supposed to look nice. There is nothing "impractical" in it. Besides, due to the way it was implemented, in Vista/7, Aero actually improves performance on a semi-capable GPU compared to "classic".

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-12-02, 19:10:

What? For Windows desktop, OS lifespans have gotten longer, not shorter.

Nobody said they got shorter, but it's certainly debateable.

For example, measured by lifespan of official support, Windows 10 has had a practical lifespan of a decade.

Why are you going by "official support"? It's an arbitrary deadline cooked up by the vendor to suit their business goals. The whole notion that anyone else should care the slightest amount about "official support" rests on the reality that the product is alpha-quality and needs constant fixing.

The purpose of a PC isn't to run an OS, it's to run applications. The OS is a foundation for applications to stand on. Would you prefer to have a reliable and stable foundation under your house? Or would you like the construction company to return every few months to dig up and reconstruct parts of it?

bakemono wrote on 2024-12-03, 15:32:

Why are you going by "official support"? It's an arbitrary deadline cooked up by the vendor to suit their business goals. The whole notion that anyone else should care the slightest amount about "official support" rests on the reality that the product is alpha-quality and needs constant fixing.

Official supports give us an objective measurement by which to compare respective lifespans of different operating systems.

Official support does have a vendor cost associated with it. I also disagree with the "alpha-quality" assertion regarding operating system quality. Speaking from personal experience, I find operating systems from XP and onward far more stable than in the Win 9x days. In the latter, it was not uncommon to do full re-installs every 6 to 12 months.

Meanwhile, I've been using the same Windows 10 install for close to 7 years now. It's been rock solid for my purposes (mainly gaming and internet).

The purpose of a PC isn't to run an OS, it's to run applications. The OS is a foundation for applications to stand on. Would you prefer to have a reliable and stable foundation under your house? Or would you like the construction company to return every few months to dig up and reconstruct parts of it?

Not a great analogy, since the environment under which modern computing occurs continues to evolve especially when it comes to security threats and emerging technologies.

It would be more like wanting to continue to build upwards by adding more stories onto ones house, but that requiring additional foundation work to accommodate the extra weight. Or maybe having a house build in an earthquake or flood zone, but then expecting it would never need foundation work after a natural disaster.

That said, there is nothing stopping someone from "freezing" their OS in place and never updating it, but also understanding that it won't necessarily run the latest software nor can one expect it to be as secure when exposed to the Internet.

I wouldn't mention Windows X and quality in one sentence.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3s1 … icrosoft_fired/

dr_st wrote on 2024-12-03, 14:58:

For me it was the other way around. For a few years I ran Vista in classic mode, because I was used to it, and it felt "right". Then I tried Aero and was like "wait a minute, there is nothing wrong with it". Eye candy is not supposed to be "useful". It is supposed to look nice. There is nothing "impractical" in it. Besides, due to the way it was implemented, in Vista/7, Aero actually improves performance on a semi-capable GPU compared to "classic".

It's subjective, but I love Aero. This is how my Win10 20H2 looks.

That glow is a bit off IMO with that title bar text color (love green for active, red for inactive windows), but I compiled the theme using as much Win7 resources as possible before DWMBlurGlass was a thing, stock DWM ignored glow image in the theme. Just didn't feel like messing with the theme again.

I still messed with XP in quite recent times, so my hardware is a bit dated, especially CPU isn't the strong point, but lack of desktop compositor was apparent performance-wise. Though some parts of GDI can be faster on XP.

Someone mentioned TrustedInstaller and I have to wonder, do people that are bothered by it hack most of the system files? Just can't wrap my head around why would it be such a big deal if system files are owned by TrustedInstaller account. Launching cmd.exe as TrustedInstaller is possible.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-12-03, 15:40:

Official supports give us an objective measurement by which to compare respective lifespans of different operating systems.

Official support does have a vendor cost associated with it. I also disagree with the "alpha-quality" assertion regarding operating system quality. Speaking from personal experience, I find operating systems from XP and onward far more stable than in the Win 9x days. In the latter, it was not uncommon to do full re-installs every 6 to 12 months.

Microsoft's support periods are a valid metric to judge Microsoft's marketing strategy, little more. And again, what does this support entail? Regular updates. The need for regular updates is what makes it alpha software, nothing to do with crashing like Win9x (which was always worse than NT because of design tradeoffs).

Not a great analogy, since the environment under which modern computing occurs continues to evolve especially when it comes to security threats and emerging technologies.

The Wintel platform has been dominant for three decades. You can call it evolving. I'd call it being milked to death.

UCyborg wrote on 2024-12-03, 18:56:

It's subjective, but I love Aero. This is how my Win10 20H2 looks. […]
Show full quote

dr_st wrote on 2024-12-03, 14:58:

For me it was the other way around. For a few years I ran Vista in classic mode, because I was used to it, and it felt "right". Then I tried Aero and was like "wait a minute, there is nothing wrong with it". Eye candy is not supposed to be "useful". It is supposed to look nice. There is nothing "impractical" in it. Besides, due to the way it was implemented, in Vista/7, Aero actually improves performance on a semi-capable GPU compared to "classic".

It's subjective, but I love Aero. This is how my Win10 20H2 looks.

That glow is a bit off IMO with that title bar text color (love green for active, red for inactive windows), but I compiled the theme using as much Win7 resources as possible before DWMBlurGlass was a thing, stock DWM ignored glow image in the theme. Just didn't feel like messing with the theme again.

I still messed with XP in quite recent times, so my hardware is a bit dated, especially CPU isn't the strong point, but lack of desktop compositor was apparent performance-wise. Though some parts of GDI can be faster on XP.

Someone mentioned TrustedInstaller and I have to wonder, do people that are bothered by it hack most of the system files? Just can't wrap my head around why would it be such a big deal if system files are owned by TrustedInstaller account. Launching cmd.exe as TrustedInstaller is possible.

The screenshot you posted is EXACTLY why im still in XP, and why dont want to update

About TrustedInstaller, i was the one i mentioned, and is a big deal for me... I check my house many times and never found Mister TrustedInstaller, only my wife, kids and a cat. Then why I will allow a unknow account control my OS? is a big wtf for me

bakemono wrote on 2024-12-03, 15:32:

The purpose of a PC isn't to run an OS, it's to run applications. The OS is a foundation for applications to stand on. Would you prefer to have a reliable and stable foundation under your house? Or would you like the construction company to return every few months to dig up and reconstruct parts of it?

mm... Maybe looonngg time ago, you can have a computer without OS, just barebone software, but in modern times, you need a OS, then the purpose is first run a OS, then applications

Nothing mysterious about TrustedInstaller, every regular NT service has a corresponding service account, TrustedInstaller just happens to be used for updates and component installation / removal, so its SID is used in system files' permissions.

bakemono wrote on 2024-12-03, 19:16:

The need for regular updates is what makes it alpha software, nothing to do with crashing like Win9x (which was always worse than NT because of design tradeoffs).

We'll have to agree to disagree over your definition of alpha software. If software updates = alpha in your view, then practically all software is alpha software, rendering the definition pointless.

dr_st wrote on 2024-12-03, 14:58:

For me it was the other way around. For a few years I ran Vista in classic mode, because I was used to it, and it felt "right". Then I tried Aero and was like "wait a minute, there is nothing wrong with it". Eye candy is not supposed to be "useful". It is supposed to look nice. There is nothing "impractical" in it. Besides, due to the way it was implemented, in Vista/7, Aero actually improves performance on a semi-capable GPU compared to "classic".

Eye candy is distracting from work flow...I don't need this translucent GUI...it was just for a short time that I thought "Oh, this is possible!?"...and it is impractical and useless for me. I always found it inappropriate despite it was "something cool" on first sight.

bakemono wrote on 2024-12-03, 15:32:

The purpose of a PC isn't to run an OS, it's to run applications. The OS is a foundation for applications to stand on. Would you prefer to have a reliable and stable foundation under your house? Or would you like the construction company to return every few months to dig up and reconstruct parts of it?

Haha, that's a good one!

UCyborg wrote on 2024-12-03, 18:56:

Someone mentioned TrustedInstaller and I have to wonder, do people that are bothered by it hack most of the system files? Just can't wrap my head around why would it be such a big deal if system files are owned by TrustedInstaller account. Launching cmd.exe as TrustedInstaller is possible.

There is something wrong with it...it occupies hundreds of MiBs to some GiBs of RAM...it is totally bloating after starting Windows 7, nobodody installed anything but this "TrustedInstaller" goes insane.

kind regards
soggi