That's another good point. The final OpenGL 1.1 ICD was excellent and supported my ote features than the Voodoo's MiniGL.

One of the most painful issues I have with the latest drivers is that it caused a regression in 16-bit dithering. This can been seen in the sky in Incoming. Older drivers did not have this problem. To add further insult, the Rage 128 and up all have terrible dithering options: ordered pattern of random noise. All later cards have the same terrible two choices.

16-bit dithering is such a store point for me, as it's a prominent feature when trying to find a cart with doo backwards compatibility for olde 3D games. NVIDIA doesn't have the dithering problem, but instead has issues with texels, mipmap LOD, and texture filtering since the GeForce line.

I have found that there is no perfect card. Only a different set of concessions between each major brand.

In summary, I love the Rage Pro. It is excellent. I'm just nitpicking because it was so, so close to being perfect!

Kahenraz wrote on 2024-07-01, 19:07:

I think that the Rage Pro/XL would be the perfect retro card for early OpenGL and Direct3D if the last few bugs were worked out.

disregarding the obvious voodoo, riva128 seems the mostly better pick to me, mainly because the unfiltered alpha textures on the rage pro make the visuals look particularily incoherent. it's kind of interesting that no other vendor ever seemed to dare to ship a chipset with this exact flaw, at least that i'm aware. i know riva is flawed with regards to mipmapping and texel alignment issues, but at least you get driver/game options to try and improve it. good luck improving the filtering on a rage pro though. even dos support is better, because i don't appreciate how ati cards tend to force vsync there. riva gives you VBE 3.0 onboard as a bonus, too.

rage pro main advantage is just availability, because it was such a big oem win, and cif support. you are probably going to have to juggle around driver installations to try and get the latter working. XL fixes the filtering but almost doesn't count to me because it was somewhat of an anachronism in 99-2000, so the availability is much worse, and the newer cheapo PCI cards seem to work only on 3.3V. i'm not going to going to hack up any hardware just to get a rage xl working in a period correct setup.

i'd probably even go with a 4mb riva128 over an 8mb rage pro, because i think the memory shouldn't matter too much for the games those cards can actually play decently. or to put it differently, who would choose an 8mb rage pro over a 4mb voodoo to play unreal? then of course 128zx will give you 8mb and agp 2x, for whatever that's worth. GTA 2 would be one game to test that out, because that's a 1999 title that will display the exploding score text (mostly) correctly unlike rage pro.

open to other suggestions why rage pro is better though. well, if anything it's probably better for dvd playback because it has motion compensation over the riva, and XL even added idct support on top of that, while riva only has color space conversion. i wonder if the DVD support along with the better sounding 8mb gave ati the big OEM win over nvidia for that generation?

VESA/VBE implementation is another very annoying thing, why the hack are cards promised to have vesa2 and or vesa3 and games refuse to work in vesa?
Then there are software fixes from the manufacture that also do not work...sdd is the last thing to try out and even this fails in some cases....crazy!

I add 1107V2 to Rage3 OpenGL package and upload it soon, i have not found any new OpenGL versions latetly for Win9x.
Maybe we can bencmark Quake1/Quake2 or any other OpenGL game bencmark result here @ any Rage3 cards we have?
non OC and OC results + tweaked results or i try to collect now other OSes OpenGL files for Rage3 cards, there are many.

Is there any OpenGL 1.1 bencmark tool that work with Rage3? I add my Pentium3 results here with D3D at the moment.

AMD K6-2 plus 400MHz + ATi RageXL AGP best run @ 3D Mark99 = 1395p NoOC
Intel Pentium 3 600Mhz + ATi RageXL AGP first run @ 3D Mark99 = 1577p NoOC
Intel Pentium 3 600Mhz + ATi RageXL AGP first run @ 3D Mark99 = 2103p VGAMemOC@120 (Picture ok)

Added quick Quake1 and Quake2 results for Pentium3 and Rage3 with mem OC@119 (Picture ok)
Quake1 timedemo demo1 640x480x16 58.1fps bilinear and multitexture enabled RageXL AGP OGL 1073
Quake2 timedemo 1 map demo1 640x480x16 49.8 bilinear and multitexture enabled RageXL AGP OGL 1073

What tool have you used to perform the overclock?
It seems that the Rage XL is limited to 120mhz, but I think the Core/Memory frequency ratio influences, I'm not sure what it is but in my tests it seems that the memory frequency is also a limit. I don't know what the ratio may be, but I have reached a point that the memory also needs overvolt, in my XL PCI card test at 115mhz, and the memory module is marked for 143mhz, so I guess it is possible that because of the core/memory ratio, the memory ends up at least near 166mhz, otherwise it should not need overvolt in my opinion.

Hoping wrote on 2024-07-20, 15:10:

What tool have you used to perform the overclock?
It seems that the Rage XL is limited to 120mhz, but I think the Core/Memory frequency ratio influences, I'm not sure what it is but in my tests it seems that the memory frequency is also a limit. I don't know what the ratio may be, but I have reached a point that the memory also needs overvolt, in my XL PCI card test at 115mhz, and the memory module is marked for 143mhz, so I guess it is possible that because of the core/memory ratio, the memory ends up at least near 166mhz, otherwise it should not need overvolt in my opinion.

I have used Powerstrip 3.xx versions and i needed to edit powrstrip .ini file to get overclock option over 106Mhz (now max is @ 133Mhz), from somewhere i have read that it is @ multiply 1.5 for the memory, that in the reality i use my RageXL AGP that has 6ns (166) memory @180Mhz if i use 120MHz OC. I have 7ns (143) Rage XL AGP card also that has 110- 115 limit, also even @ 120MHz i see i should maybe take 1 or 2 MHz down @ mem clock, so limit is @ 115-120. Powrstrip older version, like 2.78 did not work for me, but it gives more Rage3 options, some video has Rage XL PCI (32bit) working with 2.78, but not my 64bit AGP ones and i do not have RageXL PCI to test it out. Also Rage Pro Tweaker does not work for OverClock options @ RageXL AGP, other settings seems work @ Rage Pro Tweaker. Powestrip 3.xx shows some silly numbers for Core Clock and it does nothing , it can be set @ over 600MHz. 😀

Some days ago i was looking this old video @ youtube:
ATI Rage XL 8 MB PCI Overclocking and Testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyPt5TA378E

My test computer:
Pentium MMX @262mhz 3.5x75.
64mb SDRAM
Intel 430TX
AE Rage XL PCI
AE Ess Maestro 2 PCI
I use Rageclk from Autoexec.bat and on modern Rage XL PCI's the limit is at 110-113mhz, 115mhz with significant overvolt on both memory and chip.
So, it seems we come to the same point, the original Rage XLs seem to be better, the difference may be in the memory and I guess something also in the board design, but there is not a huge difference.
If we could change that core/memory ratio to 1:1 it would be interesting, but well, without anyone who can modify the BIOS, nothing to do.
In my case I got a pretty big FPS increase in GLQuake, reaching 40 FPS by changing the sound card, although this was unexpected because the AWE 64 I was using decided it was time to retire, that's why I don't pay a lot of money for hardware with many years.
I bought a PCI sound card also purchased from AE for the cost of a beer using an ESS Maestro 2 and GLQuake went from 36 FPS to 40 FPS, I always test games with sound; who plays games without sound?
Thank you very much for the research work on the OpenGL driver, in my case the 1094 without modifications seems to give the best result.
Edit: Version 1094.

Hoping wrote on 2024-07-21, 16:36:

Thank you very much for the research work on the OpenGL driver, in my case the 1093 without modifications seems to give the best result.

Thank you! OpenGL 1093 version we dont have, but i think you mean 1094 or 1091 version. Good to hear that you get more fps with soundcard change, my Pentium 3 tests where with sound drivers installed and 1073 had faster results with p3 at the moment in Q1/Q2, before i tested with older k6-2+. I see that different PC may like different OpenGL versions and different OpenGL settings needed for max performance, not one good atidbg.ini setting for all OpenGL versions, so no 1 good settings and i rename 3 or more settings to choose, not normal, fast, max as before, because you may have using different OpenGL version and i do not play or test the same Games that you may. Still it is easy to change OpenGL versions and atidbg.ini settings and they all should work (no restart needed).

ATi RageXL 8MB AGP 64bit with VGA OC @ 50fps or more is possible with Pentium 3 for both Quake1/Quake2. I am already happy with its speed. Of course i have used and tested many drivers and difference is there, with better vga drivers, not just OpenGL version, score also gets better, litle by litle, step by step. 8 bit palleted texures are also working @ Direct3D with Rage3 cards and @ OpenGL they do not work.

Still great cheap cards i must say ,that can deliver if properly used.

marxveix wrote on 2024-07-22, 10:57:

Thank you! OpenGL 1093 version we dont have, but i think you mean 1094 or 1091 version. Good to hear that you get more fps with […]
Show full quote

Hoping wrote on 2024-07-21, 16:36:

Thank you very much for the research work on the OpenGL driver, in my case the 1093 without modifications seems to give the best result.

Thank you! OpenGL 1093 version we dont have, but i think you mean 1094 or 1091 version. Good to hear that you get more fps with soundcard change, my Pentium 3 tests where with sound drivers installed and 1073 had faster results with p3 at the moment in Q1/Q2, before i tested with older k6-2+. I see that different PC may like different OpenGL versions and different OpenGL settings needed for max performance, not one good atidbg.ini setting for all OpenGL versions, so no 1 good settings and i rename 3 or more settings to choose, not normal, fast, max as before, because you may have using different OpenGL version and i do not play or test the same Games that you may. Still it is easy to change OpenGL versions and atidbg.ini settings and they all should work (no restart needed).

ATi RageXL 8MB AGP 64bit with VGA OC @ 50fps or more is possible with Pentium 3 for both Quake1/Quake2. I am already happy with its speed. Of course i have used and tested many drivers and difference is there, with better vga drivers, not just OpenGL version, score also gets better, litle by litle, step by step. 8 bit palleted texures are also working @ Direct3D with Rage3 cards and @ OpenGL they do not work.

Still great cheap cards i must say ,that can deliver if properly used.

Yes, my mistake, version 1094. Thanks for the correction.

I have found one OpenGL 1.1 Benchmark tool so far for Win9x. Other OpenGL Bencmark tools need OpenGL 1.2 or newer OpenGL support that Rage3 cards do not have. This has nothing fancy, just simple OpenGL tests and it works with Rage3 cards. It generates log and csv file after test is finished.

More info about it here:
https://swarm.cz/gpubench/

GPUbench 1.1 (OpenGL 1.1) download:
https://swarm.cz/gpubench/GPUbench.zip

Edit:
I have GLdemo and GLinfo now. For Rage Pro / XL GLinfo gives this OpenGL info @ txt report output.

DRIVER INFO
---------------
Vendor : Microsoft Corporation
Renderer : GDI Generic
Version : 1.1.0

OPENGL CAPABILITIES
-----------------------
Supported extensions:
GL_WIN_swap_hint
GL_EXT_bgra
GL_EXT_paletted_texture

Max. viewport size : 16384x16384
Max. texture size : 1024x1024

Max. modelview stack depth : 32
Max. projection stack depth : 10
Max. texture stack depth : 10
Max. attribute stack depth : 16
Max. name stack depth : 128

Max. display list nesting : 64
Max. evaluator order : 30
Max. number of lights : 8
Max. clipping planes : 6
Max. pixel map size : 65536

Point size range : 0.500 to 10.000
Point size granularity : 0.125
Line width range : 0.500 to 10.000
Line width granularity : 0.125

Number of auxiliary buffers : 0
Bits of sub-pixel precision : 3

ACCELERATED PIXEL FORMATS
-----------------------------
* Render to window; single buffered; RGBA color; color: 16 bpp (R: 5, G: 5, B: 5, A: 0); accumulation: 0 bpp (R: 0, G: 0, B: 0, A: 0); depth: 16 bits; stencil: 0 bits; auxiliary buffers: 0
* Render to window; double buffered; RGBA color; color: 16 bpp (R: 5, G: 5, B: 5, A: 0); accumulation: 0 bpp (R: 0, G: 0, B: 0, A: 0); depth: 16 bits; stencil: 0 bits; auxiliary buffers: 0

marxveix wrote on 2024-07-18, 22:12:

Added quick Quake1 and Quake2 results for Pentium3 and Rage3 with mem OC@119 (Picture ok)
Quake1 timedemo demo1 640x480x16 58.1fps bilinear and multitexture enabled RageXL AGP OGL 1073
Quake2 timedemo 1 map demo1 640x480x16 49.8 bilinear and multitexture enabled RageXL AGP OGL 1073

Pentium 4 is bit overkill @ ATi Rage XL 8MB 2xAGP, Pentium 3 would be perfect for these old Rage3 cards.
All stable and good for gaming, no Quake tweaks, SkipFlipWaitIdle was disabled and also bilinear disabled.

Disabled bilinear and multitexture and so far these are my fastest fps results with vga mem OC@119MHz
Quake1 timedemo demo1 640x480x16 68.2fps bilinear and multitexture disabled RageXL AGP OGL 1073
Quake2 timedemo 1 map demo1 640x480x16 54.2 bilinear and multitexture disabled RageXL AGP OGL 1073

Added 3Dmark99 Max result also here, with default res and no OC = 1739p and vga mem OC = 2285 points.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-12, 11:24:

Is there a setting which can enable GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette as well?

ATi Rage3 paletted textures with OpenGL possible with GLDirect. For me, best worked GLDirect 3.00 CAD Driver + Disable Mipmapping.

RageXL Quake2 example added.

You shouldn't need to do this though. Driver version W98_RXL_4_12_2647.exe from November of 2000 already supports paletted textures.

Does anyone know if there is a ATI Rage XL driver that will run Final Fantasy 7 correctly?

Kahenraz wrote on 2025-01-08, 00:25:

You shouldn't need to do this though. Driver version W98_RXL_4_12_2647.exe from November of 2000 already supports paletted textures.

Does anyone know if there is a ATI Rage XL driver that will run Final Fantasy 7 correctly?

Final Fantasy is Direct3D game and GLDirect paletted textures are working only with older versions of GLDirect and you have to have working Direct3D paletted textures to begin with. GLDirect version 1.0 up to 3.0 works with paletted textures, version 4 and 5 does not support it. If someone have better results without it, i am happy to know about it. 😀

Oh, I see. My mistake.

Kahenraz wrote on 2025-01-08, 01:35:

Oh, I see. My mistake.

It's all good. 😀

marxveix wrote on 2025-04-06, 08:24:

Hoping wrote on 2024-07-21, 16:36:

In my case I got a pretty big FPS increase in GLQuake, reaching 40 FPS by changing the sound card, although this was unexpected because the AWE 64 I was using decided it was time to retire, that's why I don't pay a lot of money for hardware with many years.
I bought a PCI sound card also purchased from AE for the cost of a beer using an ESS Maestro 2 and GLQuake went from 36 FPS to 40 FPS, I always test games with sound; who plays games without sound?

Do you use ESS ES1968 or ES1978 in your RetroPC and what audio driver version?

marxveix wrote on 2025-04-06, 08:26:

marxveix wrote on 2025-04-06, 08:24:

Hoping wrote on 2024-07-21, 16:36:

In my case I got a pretty big FPS increase in GLQuake, reaching 40 FPS by changing the sound card, although this was unexpected because the AWE 64 I was using decided it was time to retire, that's why I don't pay a lot of money for hardware with many years.
I bought a PCI sound card also purchased from AE for the cost of a beer using an ESS Maestro 2 and GLQuake went from 36 FPS to 40 FPS, I always test games with sound; who plays games without sound?

Do you use ESS ES1968 or ES1978 in your RetroPC and what audio driver version?

It had to be some strange bug in the Quake benchmark, the 40 FPS were repeated, but after turning off the computer, never again reached 40 FPS, I have not tried it for a long time, I remember many problems with the sound drivers, they were not completely uninstalled, every time I uninstalled a version, a message appeared at Windows startup saying that a file was missing, in the end I had a lot of the same messages. I got tired of trying to repeat the 40 FPS. If it wasn't a bug, I don't know exactly what the reason was.
I know it seems like I just overreacted, so whatever.
Anyway, the chip is marked ESS 1970S.

marxveix wrote on 2024-08-12, 23:51:

I have found one OpenGL 1.1 Benchmark tool so far for Win9x. Other OpenGL Bencmark tools need OpenGL 1.2 or newer OpenGL support that Rage3 cards do not have. This has nothing fancy, just simple OpenGL tests and it works with Rage3 cards. It generates log and csv file after test is finished.

What about GL Excess ? https://www.glexcess.com/defaultn.asp
I remember running it on HP Optibook 6000 laptop (P3 with Rage Mobility M1 - so definitely Rage3 architecture).

But, it was about 20 years ago, so I may be wrong as well (anyway worth checking).

Hoping wrote on 2025-04-06, 20:13:

It had to be some strange bug in the Quake benchmark, the 40 FPS were repeated, but after turning off the computer, never again […]
Show full quote

marxveix wrote on 2025-04-06, 08:26:

marxveix wrote on 2025-04-06, 08:24:

Do you use ESS ES1968 or ES1978 in your RetroPC and what audio driver version?

It had to be some strange bug in the Quake benchmark, the 40 FPS were repeated, but after turning off the computer, never again reached 40 FPS, I have not tried it for a long time, I remember many problems with the sound drivers, they were not completely uninstalled, every time I uninstalled a version, a message appeared at Windows startup saying that a file was missing, in the end I had a lot of the same messages. I got tired of trying to repeat the 40 FPS. If it wasn't a bug, I don't know exactly what the reason was.
I know it seems like I just overreacted, so whatever.
Anyway, the chip is marked ESS 1970S.

I doubt that it has anything to do with your drop in FPS, but if you installed VXD drivers, there might have been a companion DOS driver installed in your config.sys and autoexec.bat. Try checking there.