VOGONS


First post, by daeds

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Hey there good people!
I've been debating whether or not to start a new project and build a Socket 7 machine for my older games, DOOM, Ultima, those older fellas.
At the moment I have my trusty socket 478 P4 1.7ghz with 256mb RAM and my trusty(for now?) Soltek Intel 845 (Brookdale) board and my RIVA TNT2.
I have some problems running my older stuff, possibly due to not knowing how to launch the games properly with the configs and all that stuff (ems errors, sound problems..), I can play them with DOSBOX but I love to run them natively.
I found my Ultima Underworld 2 copy, with the box and the disks, and I wanted SO bad to install it and run it but I'm a bit scared to even try.
Any tips you can give me, or orientation? There are lots of posts on throttling, cache limitations, but I feel kind of lost.
I can buy a socket 7 board with a 233mmx and 16mb EDO ram for 50€ or something but I don't want to start a new thing if this one can work.
Thanks! 😀

Reply 1 of 17, by Grzyb

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There are at least two problems:
1. no ISA = sound problems in DOS, though sometimes possible to solve - please post details, what sound card (or onboard sound chip) are you using?
2. too fast for many DOS programs - Methods to enhance retro-flexibility on Pentium 4 class hardware...

Zaglądali do kufrów, zaglądali do waliz, nie zajrzeli do dupy - tam miałem klimatyzm.

Reply 3 of 17, by fosterwj03

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I've got a 3.4GHz P4 on a Itox G7S620 (LGA 775). The board has 2 ISA slots populated with a SB16/X2GS combo and a PicoGUS/E-Wave combo. It's a super fun DOS machine (among other OS's).

I use throttle utilities to slow the CPU down to 386 speeds for some games, others I slow down to Pentium MMX speeds. Lots of games work just fine at full speed.

Reply 4 of 17, by fosterwj03

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I also have a Yamaha YMF-744 based PCI Sound Card that has excellent SB compatibility in DOS even on a super fast system with an i7-4790k. It isn't easy to configure, but great when it works. I think it needs EMM386 to run the driver, though.

Reply 5 of 17, by Ozzuneoj

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An Aureal Vortex 2 is a good PCI sound card option if you can get your hands on a wavetable daughterboard (like one of the ones sold by Serdashop) or an external MIDI module.

It doesn't require D-DMA or PC-PCI support from the motherboard and the DOS TSR (driver) is small, simple and doesn't require EMM386. The FM music synth is emulated so a lot of tracks sound a bit funky compared to how they should sound. If you add a hardware midi device though, the Vortex 2 would be a tough to beat for a DOS PCI sound card.

Otherwise, I think the ESS Solo-1 is also a good option, though I think it is more of just an alternative to the Yamaha PCI cards. They both provide great FM music. Yamaha also provides XG wavetable in Windows or in a DOS box (not in pure DOS), but the ESS Solo-1 tends to have a wavetable header. Game and motherboard compatibility probably varies a bit between the two.

A Vortex2 is probably less dependent on what motherboard you are using, but you'll need something extra to have good sounding MIDI.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 8 of 17, by Ozzuneoj

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daeds wrote on 2025-01-11, 10:36:

What throttle programs could I use with my chipset? Seems like throttle ain't compatible.. 🙁 My board doesn't have ISA slots saddly, what are my other options?

It was pretty much assumed that a Socket 478 system would not have ISA slots, so all of the cards I mentioned are PCI cards. You don't need an ISA slot. 😀

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 9 of 17, by megatron-uk

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daeds wrote on 2025-01-11, 10:36:

What throttle programs could I use with my chipset? Seems like throttle ain't compatible.. 🙁 My board doesn't have ISA slots saddly, what are my other options?

Setmul can (usually) be used to enable/disable L1 and L2 cache from within dos.

Cpuspd can, depending on motherboard/chipset be used to lower CPU frequency fractionally based on the ability of the chipset to work at various percentages of its normal duty cycle.

Sometimes it might take a combination of the two to get the right ballpark speed.

My collection database and technical wiki:
https://www.target-earth.net

Reply 10 of 17, by fosterwj03

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megatron-uk wrote on 2025-01-11, 11:55:
Setmul can (usually) be used to enable/disable L1 and L2 cache from within dos. […]
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daeds wrote on 2025-01-11, 10:36:

What throttle programs could I use with my chipset? Seems like throttle ain't compatible.. 🙁 My board doesn't have ISA slots saddly, what are my other options?

Setmul can (usually) be used to enable/disable L1 and L2 cache from within dos.

Cpuspd can, depending on motherboard/chipset be used to lower CPU frequency fractionally based on the ability of the chipset to work at various percentages of its normal duty cycle.

Sometimes it might take a combination of the two to get the right ballpark speed.

I think CPUSPD can also disable caches.

Reply 11 of 17, by fosterwj03

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Ozzuneoj wrote on 2025-01-11, 11:48:
daeds wrote on 2025-01-11, 10:36:

What throttle programs could I use with my chipset? Seems like throttle ain't compatible.. 🙁 My board doesn't have ISA slots saddly, what are my other options?

It was pretty much assumed that a Socket 478 system would not have ISA slots, so all of the cards I mentioned are PCI cards. You don't need an ISA slot. 😀

Socket 478 motherboards with ISA slots exist. I also have an Itox G4V620 with 3 ISA slots. These boards get really expensive, though. I only think they're worth the investment if you really need ISA cards for your application.

In my case, I need ISA cards to get sound working in OS/2 2.x , WinNT 3.1, and Windows 3.0a MME on my retro rocket. This has the added benefit of excellent DOS compatibility depending on the combination of sound cards I use.

Reply 12 of 17, by Lynxman

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I'm testing out an Abit IS7 motherboard now and the on board sound is surprisingly good sounding and dos compatible with SBEmu. Realtek ALC650 (AC97) sound chip. https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/abit-ab-is7

I've only tried Doom and Descent 1 and 2 in DOS but they worked right away except 16 bit DMA cuts off audio when I try to use it in Descent 2. I use 8 bit instead. The FM synth sounds normal. I'll test more games today. Win98, DOS 7 and XP run great on it.

I have an old 486 (and Pentium MMX and PIII based systems) too and think it's best to have one slow and one fast system, though maybe a 386 would be better for the slow system.

Reply 13 of 17, by Ozzuneoj

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fosterwj03 wrote on 2025-01-11, 15:07:
Ozzuneoj wrote on 2025-01-11, 11:48:
daeds wrote on 2025-01-11, 10:36:

What throttle programs could I use with my chipset? Seems like throttle ain't compatible.. 🙁 My board doesn't have ISA slots saddly, what are my other options?

It was pretty much assumed that a Socket 478 system would not have ISA slots, so all of the cards I mentioned are PCI cards. You don't need an ISA slot. 😀

Socket 478 motherboards with ISA slots exist. I also have an Itox G4V620 with 3 ISA slots. These boards get really expensive, though. I only think they're worth the investment if you really need ISA cards for your application.

In my case, I need ISA cards to get sound working in OS/2 2.x , WinNT 3.1, and Windows 3.0a MME on my retro rocket. This has the added benefit of excellent DOS compatibility depending on the combination of sound cards I use.

Of course they exist, but if someone says that they have an old 478 board laying around there's about a 99% chance it doesn't have an ISA slot unless they speak of it being from some piece of industrial equipment.

Itox and a few other manufacturers are the exceptions and they're exceedingly hard to find these days unless you pay out the nose or happen to stumble on one.

EDIT: Sorry, 98% chance... TheRetroWeb lists 2249 Socket 478 motherboards and only 46 with 1,2 or 3 ISA slots. I was curious. 🤣

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 14 of 17, by fosterwj03

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The Ensoniq AudioPCI, Sound Blaster 16 PCI, Sound Blaster Live!, and Audigy series are also all options. These cards all have similar DOS drivers (they're kind of a family in that regard), but no one set of drivers support them all. The Creative drivers all offer SB16 emulation in pure DOS while the Ensoniq drivers offer SB Pro emulation. All of them offer the same software wavetable support which doesn't sound too bad. FM emulation is just OK, but I don't mind it.

Unfortunately, again, the DOS drivers for these cards require EMM386 to work. They are all compatible with Intel 800-series motherboards. Interestingly, the SB emulation in these drivers have similar timing bugs at high CPU clock speeds as a real ISA Sound Blaster 16.

Reply 15 of 17, by Shponglefan

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Something I don't think was suggested yet is using SBEMU to emulate sound blaster support using AC97 audio: SBEMU: Sound Blaster emulation on AC97

It's not a perfect solution, but it may serve in lieu of buying any PCI sound cards.

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
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Reply 16 of 17, by chinny22

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Shponglefan wrote on 2025-01-11, 23:38:

Something I don't think was suggested yet is using SBEMU to emulate sound blaster support using AC97 audio: SBEMU: Sound Blaster emulation on AC97

It's not a perfect solution, but it may serve in lieu of buying any PCI sound cards.

Never used this but seems like a good idea, at least to start with to get an idea on how well your games work.
Although I'm assuming the P4 currently has either Win9x or XP installed, in which case I'd be recommending upgrading the sound card anyway.

If on a budget I'd be going for a SBLive! as these are cheap and will give you EAX in Windows and SB16 emulation for dos.
If you have a bit more money Look at an Audigy 1 or 2 which are basically just updated Live cards.

Yamaha, ESS Solo1, ALS 4000 I'd place above your AC97 below the Live/Audigy cards. They can sound better for dos games but is primally a dos or windows rig?

Aureal Vortex are more for Win9x then XP but if you're running Win9x you'll get A3D support in your 9x games
Vortex 1 supports A3D 1.0 as do many other cards, but good quality and good dos support, cards should be fairly cheap
Vortex 2 supports A3D 2.0, and basically the only card that does and has the same good dos support.

As for CPU speed issues, you can always install the game for now without sound and see how many games are effected, you'll probably find not that many are, Doom for example will run fine

Reply 17 of 17, by Lynxman

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SBEMU works really well in DOS with my on board AC97 soundcard. I tried an SBLive instead now and the gameport and wavetable is nice but I'm not sure I want to have it in permanently yet as the MT32 emulation is useless in the games I like (Sierra games that use custom sounds) and I might not need a gameport after all since all games that I need it in run just as well under Windows 98. SBLive doesn't have a header for front audio so I'd need to make an adaptor for the rear jacks to use the front audio panel. I use the same headphones on different systems so quick access to the audio jack is preferable.