VOGONS


Reply 20 of 28, by ThinkpadIL

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-04-02, 06:06:
ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-17, 06:30:

I see no sense running DOS programs on Windows 3.0 on XT machines. You always can run them in pure DOS instead.

Hi, is this topic still "a thing" (so to say)?
Because I had thought about this problem in the past months.

Yes, of course it is. And thank you for plenty of information, I appreciate it.

By the way, can you check if CA-Realizer for Windows v 1.0 will work under Windows 3.0 in Real Mode (I mean if you'll be able to compile programs under Windows 3.0)?

Reply 21 of 28, by Jo22

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ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-04-02, 11:32:

By the way, can you check if CA-Realizer for Windows v 1.0 will work under Windows 3.0 in Real Mode (I mean if you'll be able to compile programs under Windows 3.0)?

Hi, sure, it's on my todo list. 🙂
I'll have to find a copy first, though.

For the moment, I can only say that the official v1.0 box says "Any system compatible with Windows 3.0 or higher."
Whatever that means.

PS: Other early Windows programming software were Actor 1 and 2 (Windows 2.x), Actor 3 (Windows 3), Bumblebee dBFast (Windows 2), CA dBFast (Windows 3.1), GFA-Basic 4.10 (Windows 3) and Visual Basic, of course.

To a stretch, Gupta SQLWindows and FoxPro 2.5 can be considered programming environments, but they're really database systems with xBase language.
Edit: SQLWindows may use "SAL" language.

They may also depend on 80386 code, not sure. It's hard to see visually.
Watcom's Win386 implementation of the Win16 API was popular in the power user field.
It essentially implemented a 32-Bit version of Win16 atop the real Windows 3.x.

History of VB 1.0:
http://www.forestmoon.com/birthofvb/birthofvb.html
https://www.johnsmiley.com/visualbasic/vbhistory.htm
https://socket3.wordpress.com/2016/09/12/visu … rly-beginnings/

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 22 of 28, by doshea

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I've seen Jo22 mention Gupta SQLWindows a few time but I'd never seen it mentioned elsewhere until I was just having a look at this "Windows Shopping" brochure from Microsoft from 1988 which includes it and Actor.

Actor sounds pretty interesting! It says it's interactive, object-oriented, supposedly provides a smooth transition to OS/2 PM, and can link to C libraries. Also it's from Whitewater, whose Resource Toolkit product was included with some Borland products (before they wrote their own Resource Editor I presume).

I appreciate your posts in this thread Jo22, although I don't have much to add because apart from the Windows runtime in Balance of Power, the first time I ran Windows was on a 386SX/20 with 2MB of RAM which I guess is a bit too powerful and modern for this thread 😁 I have a backup of that machine including Program Manager group files, so sometime I can share a reconstructed screen shot of my desktop from December 1991, but I don't know know much of it would run on a 286.

Reply 23 of 28, by Jo22

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doshea wrote on 2024-04-03, 08:22:

I've seen Jo22 mention Gupta SQLWindows a few time but I'd never seen it mentioned elsewhere until I was just having a look at this "Windows Shopping" brochure from Microsoft from 1988 which includes it and Actor.

Actor sounds pretty interesting! It says it's interactive, object-oriented, supposedly provides a smooth transition to OS/2 PM, and can link to C libraries. Also it's from Whitewater, whose Resource Toolkit product was included with some Borland products (before they wrote their own Resource Editor I presume).

I appreciate your posts in this thread Jo22, although I don't have much to add because apart from the Windows runtime in Balance of Power, the first time I ran Windows was on a 386SX/20 with 2MB of RAM which I guess is a bit too powerful and modern for this thread 😁 I have a backup of that machine including Program Manager group files, so sometime I can share a reconstructed screen shot of my desktop from December 1991, but I don't know know much of it would run on a 286.

Hi, thanks! 😁 But to be honest, my father was an SQLWindows user back then and he told me a few times about it, that's why it came to mind. 😅
Personally, with my own PC, I've started out on a 286 with MS-DOS 6.2/Windows 3.1.
I've also been using my father's old copy of Windows 2.03 to play some old Windows games gotten on shareware disks, like Klotz (a Tetris game).
Since he had a disk set of MS-DOS 3.2 and PC-DOS 3.30 (among other OSes), Windows 2 could run without much hassle.

A bit about the background story: He worked as a programmer/PC repair man back then and had a lot of programs.
But he wasn't wealthy by any means. These programs were more like tools in a toolbox, to earn money.
Curiosity was another factor, of course. As a radio amateur, he loved to tinker with all sorts of elecronics.
I think it goes without saying that back in those days, there was a lot of exchange of, err, "backup copies" going on. 😉
So he saw a lot of different stuff at friends', acquaintance's and customers' places first and later bought the programs he wanted to use.

Some programs in his possesion were merely to demonstration purposes, too.
To show what a computer can do and how well it performs (ACAD comes to mind).
And to be able to quickly help out with software in a business environment, in an emergency (PC-Tools, Novell networking stuff etc).
Things like this. I suppose that's why I got in contact with the DOS software on an early age, already.
And why I could have played around with such things as Visual Basic 1.0 or QuickBASIC 4.5..

Our national cop.right (at the time) did allow a limited number of backup copies of previously paid for media
(VHS, cassette, floppies, books etc) to be shared within family and among close friends.
That's why video cassette rental was such a big hit at the time, I assume.
A copy or two could be kept legally after returning of the rental cassette.
Provided, that Macrovisi*n wasn't trying to stop the fun.

Anyway, I'm just saying. I think most of these things wasn't my merit, so to say. I was more of an observer.
My own "collection" of software mostly consisted of shareware and public domain.
A few years later, I collected those shareware CD-ROMs, of which I still have kept quite some. ^^

PS: Thanks a lot for the brochure, too! I'm always enjoying seeing those Windows 2 screenshots!
There's something to these late 80s applications. A mixture of new concepts and traditional takes on certain things, not sure to explain.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 24 of 28, by Jo22

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Quick update. I've just learned that Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.x can be used to compile Windows 2.x applications.
It involves using patch_ne.exe utility. Details can be found on BearWindows page ("How we can successfully write a program for Windows 2.x").

Edit: Sample/picture attached.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 25 of 28, by gerry

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Jo22 wrote on 2025-01-15, 07:18:

Quick update. I've just learned that Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.x can be used to compile Windows 2.x applications.
It involves using patch_ne.exe utility. Details can be found on BearWindows page ("How we can successfully write a program for Windows 2.x").

Edit: Sample/picture attached.

I like that such information still exists 😀

Also, windows before 3.1 is something not used much now and yet it would have had serious software developed for it at the time, it's an interesting period that leads to win 3.1 (and then soon(ish) after win95

Reply 26 of 28, by Jo22

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gerry wrote on 2025-01-15, 08:49:
Jo22 wrote on 2025-01-15, 07:18:

Quick update. I've just learned that Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.x can be used to compile Windows 2.x applications.
It involves using patch_ne.exe utility. Details can be found on BearWindows page ("How we can successfully write a program for Windows 2.x").

Edit: Sample/picture attached.

I like that such information still exists 😀

Also, windows before 3.1 is something not used much now and yet it would have had serious software developed for it at the time, it's an interesting period that leads to win 3.1 (and then soon(ish) after win95

I think same! 😃

To be honest, I started with 3.1 but also have a few fond memories of playing Klotz! on PC- DOS 3.30/Windows 2.03 in the 90s!

That's because I was a big fan of shareware CDs in the 90s and they sometimes had an OLDWIN directory with pre-Windows 3 applications.
Probably because they all had used same sources such as Hobbes.

That's when I got curious and started experimenting with my dad's oldest software a little bit closer, which Windows 2 was part of.
To my surprise, quite a few applications were able to run on Windows 2.03, that was so cool! On Windows from 1987! 🥳

Not that I didn't know about Windows 2 before, but I didn't know that shareware/freeware programs had existed for it, too.
Before this, I always thought that Windows 2 had shrink-wrapped software only.

My main use for Windows 2 before this was the Terminal applications, because it had a computer-computer mode. I still like Windows 2 terminal, also.
It's so satisfyingly basic, down to earth (not meant to be used with Hayes modem-only like other terminal progs).

But that beibg said, there's still more to learn.
For example, Windows 3.0 MME had dedicated support for mode 13h access (VGA).
So Windows applications could draw directly to screen buffer in fullscreen mode (320x200 256c), by-passing GDI.
The library that makes it possible is dispdib.dll, a sister of dib.dll.
Mixing GDI is possible too in full screen mode.

Then, there's sndblst.dll that shipped with early Sound Blasters..
It even works in Real-Mode on an PC/XT and allows Windows 3.x applications to play back MIDI/VOC files.
This early bird even pre-dates Windows 3.0 MME!
It's probably the oldest sound API available to Windows.
(There's a shareware FM driver for Windows 3 that shipped with Rainbow Arts PC Soundman, an early AdLib clone with DAC).

Edit: More information:

https://betawiki.net/wiki/Windows_3.0_with_Mu … .0#New_features

Adventures with Windows 3.0

https://www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=PC-Soundman

Last edited by Jo22 on 2025-01-15, 09:17. Edited 1 time in total.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 27 of 28, by roytam1

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Jo22 wrote on 2023-09-10, 17:50:
Ah, I see. Makes sense. Maybe CA Realizer does work here, it was a Visual Basic alternative. It mentions Windows 3.0 as requirem […]
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ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-10, 17:07:

I was asking because Windows 3.0 is the latest available version of Windows that somehow works on HP 200LX.
Don't know why I pay so much attention to this cute little nonsense ... Maybe because it is cute.

Ah, I see. Makes sense. Maybe CA Realizer does work here, it was a Visual Basic alternative. It mentions Windows 3.0 as requirement, nothing else.

Hm. In theory, a hacked/modified VB Runtime (vbrun100.dll etc) might make things work on Windows 3.0 RM.
The Visual Basic applications themselves use P-Code and are techically processor-independant.
It's the runtime who is providing a virtual machine, comparable to Java/Chip-8, maybe.

If only we knew if there was some beta version of Visual Basic or a demo version (working model, incl. DLLs)..
If there was, chances are there might have been still some compatibility with Windows /386 or Windows 2.x or something. And in turn, XT era hardware.
So we could borrow an earlier version of vbrun100.dll.

Windows running in Real mode will prevent running/loading EXE/DLL that has PROTMODE flag set in NE header.
If you patch it out, Windows will try to run it even in Real mode, but system will just dies and you have to reboot. (tested in 86box)

Reply 28 of 28, by Jo22

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roytam1 wrote on 2025-01-15, 09:17:
Jo22 wrote on 2023-09-10, 17:50:
Ah, I see. Makes sense. Maybe CA Realizer does work here, it was a Visual Basic alternative. It mentions Windows 3.0 as requirem […]
Show full quote
ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-10, 17:07:

I was asking because Windows 3.0 is the latest available version of Windows that somehow works on HP 200LX.
Don't know why I pay so much attention to this cute little nonsense ... Maybe because it is cute.

Ah, I see. Makes sense. Maybe CA Realizer does work here, it was a Visual Basic alternative. It mentions Windows 3.0 as requirement, nothing else.

Hm. In theory, a hacked/modified VB Runtime (vbrun100.dll etc) might make things work on Windows 3.0 RM.
The Visual Basic applications themselves use P-Code and are techically processor-independant.
It's the runtime who is providing a virtual machine, comparable to Java/Chip-8, maybe.

If only we knew if there was some beta version of Visual Basic or a demo version (working model, incl. DLLs)..
If there was, chances are there might have been still some compatibility with Windows /386 or Windows 2.x or something. And in turn, XT era hardware.
So we could borrow an earlier version of vbrun100.dll.

Windows running in Real mode will prevent running/loading EXE/DLL that has PROTMODE flag set in NE header.
If you patch it out, Windows will try to run it even in Real mode, but system will just dies and you have to reboot. (tested in 86box)

I see, that makes sense. Thanks for the information! 😁
I hope we can eventually patch some programs that use only a few basic API calls! ^^

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//