Linoleum wrote on 2025-01-20, 18:21:

Took a small break of retro gaming to play Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. Back to my backlog of classics I never get to play or finish! Finally finished DOTT after playing the first third of the game 2 or 3 times over 3 decades... I now need the strength to get back to an older savegame of Monkey Island 2 before a glitch made lose 5 hours of gameplay... ugh...

I wouldn't mind replaying 5 hours of Monkey Island 2. I remember it being really enjoyable to play. Also, most of the time is spent on figuring stuff out. So even if you're forced to restore to an earlier point in the game, you'll spend less time this time, since you'll remember what to do.

Unless a lot of time has passed, in which case the game will be even more enticing to play again. 🙂

I was testing my Pentium MMX with Voodoo 1 machine this morning. Played a bit of Monster Truck Madness 2 and Subculture ( criterion Studios game). I was pleasantly surprised by how good Sub Culture looked. Smooth us butter on the Voodoo.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-01-21, 09:33:

I was testing my Pentium MMX with Voodoo 1 machine this morning. Played a bit of Monster Truck Madness 2 and Subculture ( criterion Studios game). I was pleasantly surprised by how good Sub Culture looked. Smooth us butter on the Voodoo.

good times, i like pretty much all the ' .. madness' games for their fun pick up and play dynamics. they are late 90's standards

Continuing Thief Gold.

The Haunted Cathedral
Abandoned, dark and ruined part of town filled with undead. In princible that's very much my bag of potatoes, especially with the soundscape the game has and keeps excelling at, but it also keeps driving me crazy by its level design. I'll admit it, I'm a lousy candyass who needs hand holding in the form of accurate map. Admittedly there is a sense of gratification once you do figure the map out but I just don't find the whole process terribly enjoyable. But the atmosphere keeps doing very heavy lifting and that's a huge plus in my books, so I did still enjoy the mission.

The Mage Towers
The central tower with the keep and the library were both good, exactly what I've been enjoying the most in the game, as in areas that are more or less realistic and make sense. Guards patrolling, servants doing their job, rooms and hallways that come across as something a real person might have build. Unlike the four elemental towers that were full of labyrinths and platforming, now those I did not like. Pretty long mission too, found it quite meh overall.

The Lost City
Got the feeling someone on the developer team had been playing Tomb Raider, I kept expecting to run into a pack of wolves or a bear. Again, the game keeps being the biggest "where the fuck am I NOW" simulator I've ever played. Apart from that I would have preferred had it kept the amount of enemies bit lower, I enjoyed the lonely moments amongst the ruins more than when I had to mess with the mages and especially the silly fireballs. Wasn't a huge fan of this one.

Sombrero wrote on 2025-01-23, 14:29:

The Mage Towers
The central tower with the keep and the library were both good, exactly what I've been enjoying the most in the game, as in areas that are more or less realistic and make sense. Guards patrolling, servants doing their job, rooms and hallways that come across as something a real person might have build. Unlike the four elemental towers that were full of labyrinths and platforming, now those I did not like. Pretty long mission too, found it quite meh overall.

Yeah, that's another bonus level added by the Gold edition. As mentioned before, I'm not a huge fan of those. They are overly long and have some annoying sections, like the elemental towers in that level and the sewers in the thieves' guild. That said, the third and final bonus level (which you'll be playing next) is probably the best of the bunch.

Again, the game keeps being the biggest "where the fuck am I NOW" simulator I've ever played.

If you haven't done so already, I recommend mapping the compass to an easily reachable key, so that you can call it up quickly when needed. It doesn't help a whole lot, but sometimes, it's useful for giving you a general sense of where you are on the map compared to your current objective.

Apart from that I would have preferred had it kept the amount of enemies bit lower, I enjoyed the lonely moments amongst the ruins more than when I had to mess with the mages and especially the silly fireballs. Wasn't a huge fan of this one.

The mages there were added by the Gold edition. In the original game, you find some of those creepy fish people instead. And yeah, while that level is from the original game, it's definitively among the weaker ones.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-01-23, 16:48:

Yeah, that's another bonus level added by the Gold edition. As mentioned before, I'm not a huge fan of those. They are overly long and have some annoying sections, like the elemental towers in that level and the sewers in the thieves' guild. That said, the third and final bonus level (which you'll be playing next) is probably the best of the bunch.

The mages there were added by the Gold edition. In the original game, you find some of those creepy fish people instead. And yeah, while that level is from the original game, it's definitively among the weaker ones.

Sounds to me those fish people would fit in there better, it's supposed to be some forgotten ancient city deep down after all. I'm starting to feel like I'd prefer the original game, unless the next map blows my socks off.

If you haven't done so already, I recommend mapping the compass to an easily reachable key, so that you can call it up quickly when needed. It doesn't help a whole lot, but sometimes, it's useful for giving you a general sense of where you are on the map compared to your current objective.

Yeah, I didn't find it very helpful in The Lost City, but it did help quite a lot in The Thieves Guild. That was the mission that made me realize the compass could actually be helpful, I stumbled in the south first while trying to find a way to the north, ran around like a headless chicken for a while before I remembered I've had something that just might help with that the whole time.

Sombrero wrote on 2025-01-23, 18:12:

I'm starting to feel like I'd prefer the original game, unless the next map blows my socks off.

I think the pacing in the original game is a bit tighter, because the bonus levels don't really bring much to the story. They would have probably worked better as standalone missions, disconnected from the main plot.

I do like some of the Gold edition changes to the enemy behavior. In particular, toning down the zombie rising mechanics makes a huge difference. In the original game, knocking down a zombie with your sword was pointless, as it would get back up almost immediately. At least that's what I experienced while playing on Expert a few years back. It ruined every mission where zombies were present for me. In contrast, a knocked down zombie remains dormant unless you move really close to it in Thief Gold.

EDIT - here's a post from one of the original developers explaining the zombie stuff and some other things that the Gold edition changes.

I was just playing a bit of late evening Epic Pinball.
You know, the Deep Sea BGM bears a striking similarity to Fletch's theme. Fletch is like, the 14th greatest movie ever, so this "discovery" made me quite happy indeed. Discovery in quotes, because I'm certain I've played Deep Sea before, so I must've noticed it before. 🤔

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-01-23, 20:06:

In particular, toning down the zombie rising mechanics makes a huge difference. In the original game, knocking down a zombie with your sword was pointless, as it would get back up almost immediately. At least that's what I experienced while playing on Expert a few years back. It ruined every mission where zombies were present for me. In contrast, a knocked down zombie remains dormant unless you move really close to it in Thief Gold.

EDIT - here's a post from one of the original developers explaining the zombie stuff and some other things that the Gold edition changes.

I'll be honest, I didn't know you even could knock zombies down. I had this very foggy memory from the time I briefly played the game for the first time and thought fighting zombies without holy water was pointless as you say, evidently it must have been the original version I played then. I've just been hiding from them as long as I can and then made a run for it once I get discovered or no longer can stay hidden, they are so slow and lose track of you so easily they aren't even a threat. Just a nuisance really. Not very fitting enemy design for a stealth game but as a very pro-undead person I'll give them a pass even in their original form.

As such that list of changes between original and gold doesn't come across as worth it to me personally, especially considering my opinion of the extra missions so far. Though I wonder what that new area in The Sword is.

Sombrero wrote on 2025-01-24, 07:56:

Though I wonder what that new area in The Sword is.

It's a sort of Easter egg. Takes quite a bit of effort to find this area, and most people will probably miss it on their first run. It's non-essential to the plot, but it does hint at something that becomes obvious later in the game.

I can't say more without spoiling things, and I don't recommend looking up the info on that area before finishing the game. While the area itself contains no spoilers, its description on many fan sites will spoil things that happen much later.

The next three maps of Thief Gold:

Song of the Caverns
Annoyingly I liked this map. Annoyingly because if I ever want to play it again in the future I'll need to play the Gold version, which means I also get to "enjoy" the Thieves Guild and the elemental towers of Mage Towers. Had this map been meh at best I could have easily ignored the Gold version going forward and hop on the original game instead, bypassing three crappy maps entirely. But nope, the map soon made a complete 180 from a boring bunch of caverns into something entirely different and way more fun. Thumbs up, begrudgingly.

Undercover
Good old undercover mission where you get to roam around under false identity. Had two problems with this one, one was mostly the games fault and one mostly mine I guess but I'm going to put some of blame on the game too, damnit! The one that was mostly the games fault was one button that had been hidden kinda dickishly well, at least for a non-native english speaker who had no idea what a keystone is.

The one on me went as follows: early in the mission I found a book that told only priests have keys and only the high priest has the master key. Tried to lockpick the doors into priest quarters, it just made the "click" sound with both of the lockpicks which means you can't lockpick them. So I tried to find a priest moving around so I could steal his key, found only one snoring on a bed but he had no key and there wasn't one in the room either. I was completely stuck, I had no way to enter the priest quarters because I had no key and the priests were told to be the only ones with keys.

So there I was, running around trying desperately to find a single door that could be lockpicked while getting increasingly frustrated. Until I accidentally clicked on a door without lockpicks in hand... and it opened. ALL THE DAMN DOORS WERE UNLOCKED THE WHOLE TIME! The book about the keys and the lockpicks making the same sound when used on a unlocked door as they do on a door that requires a key threw me for a loop big time. Wonderful. Oh well, at least the rest was smooth sailing. Except for one guard who turned hostile if I ran into him. I don't think I did anything bad in his view so I guess he just didn't appreciate my face.

Return to the Cathedral
I previously said I gave the undead a pass, even in their original form. I revoke that statement. At first I hated this mission and can absolutely see it being a pain in the ass if you can't knock zombies down. It's also the first mission that made me restart it to spend my money on different equipment and then I went in full offensive mode, instead of my earlier run and hide approach when it came to the undead. Worked far better and as a result I ended up liking the mission to my surprise. Though that ghost priest with his list of chores can suck it, "go find this prayer, dunno where I left it", gee, thanks, exactly what I like to do. Anyway, looks like I'm stuck with the Gold version.

Sombrero wrote on 2025-01-26, 18:26:

Song of the Caverns
Annoyingly I liked this map. Annoyingly because if I ever want to play it again in the future I'll need to play the Gold version, which means I also get to "enjoy" the Thieves Guild and the elemental towers of Mage Towers.

Yeah, I liked that level too. It was a bit too large, containing many huge, empty rooms, but it was well designed overall. Also, during my own play through, I accidentally made things harder by knocking out the singing hobo before he could give me his map and key. I thought he was just some random NPC, and his singing was annoying me. Googling this later, I found out that some other people did that too. Amusingly, you can still complete the level like that.

Undercover
Good old undercover mission where you get to roam around under false identity.

While it's interesting to blend in, I usually ended up knocking all the hammerites out. Mainly because the alarm always goes off at the end, regardless of how stealthy you were during the entire mission. That's my only issue with it.

Return to the Cathedral
I previously said I gave the undead a pass, even in their original form. I revoke that statement. At first I hated this mission and can absolutely see it being a pain in the ass if you can't knock zombies down.

Heh, I disliked that one for those exact reasons. Also, there are many more zombies (and other enemies) on Expert, which made things even worse. And yeah, doing a bunch of fetch quests for that ghost was just tedious.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-01-26, 18:58:

Also, during my own play through, I accidentally made things harder by knocking out the singing hobo before he could give me his map and key. I thought he was just some random NPC, and his singing was annoying me.

🤣🤣

While it's interesting to blend in, I usually ended up knocking all the hammerites out. Mainly because the alarm always goes off at the end, regardless of how stealthy you were during the entire mission. That's my only issue with it.

I thought that was odd, the procedure to disable the security system does not disable the security system. Imagine having a car alarm that goes off every time you enter your car even though you disabled it. Made getting away interesting sure enough, I had knocked down only the high priest.

Also, there are many more zombies (and other enemies) on Expert, which made things even worse.

There wasn't exactly a shortage of those on normal either, sheesh. They were patrolling so aggressively they could have used traffic lights over there, so yeah, I think I can live without experiencing the "fun" of og zombies on expert difficulty on that mission.

Completed Thief Gold.

Not much to say about the last three missions, they were fine and concluded the story well enough but weren't the kind I enjoyed the most in the game. Not much thievery on those. The "end boss" made me realize the non-lethal end of The Brigmore Witches DLC for Dishonored was a bit of a nod to Thief. I imagine that's not the only nod Dishonored has for Thief.

Anyway, things I liked about the game:
- Atmosphere! Easily my favorite aspect of the game, the horror-esque ambience with the fantastic soundscape hits right in that sweet spot between non-scary and straight up horror I personally really enjoy
- Sneaking was fun and knocking people out without anyone noticing was always satisfying
- You never truly knew were you in a safe place, cleared areas could occasionally get unexpected visitors from elsewhere
- The game encouraged to use your equipment by taking them away after the mission was done, hoarding stuff for a rainy day was pointless
- Cutscenes between missions are good and the quotes they had are well written, one of them was downright inspirational

And things I was less stoked about:
- I found the map design too often horrifyinly sprawling and labyrinthian, which combined with the size of the maps and not having a detailed map with you led to some sizeable frustration at times
- Too few show yourself in to a "normal" inhabited household, steal everything not nailed down and get out missions, I had the most fun with those and felt they were the real meat of the game
- The game engine doesn't handle platforming nor climbing/mantling terribly well
- I'm a bit on the fence about how you need to move in these short bursts by tapping the move forward key to make the least amount of noise. I got used to it but I can't say I liked it all that much

While I can't say the game became one of my favorites I still mostly had a good time playing it overall. I'm not 100% certain will I ever revisit it in the future, but I'm glad I played it and beat it. The game is a stone cold classic and while it's not entirely my cup of tea the atmosphere most certainly was.

Sombrero wrote on 2025-01-28, 18:57:

Completed Thief Gold.

Congrats! And yeah, the final couple of levels were on the weaker side.

- I found the map design too often horrifyinly sprawling and labyrinthian, which combined with the size of the maps and not having a detailed map with you led to some sizeable frustration at times
- Too few show yourself in to a "normal" inhabited household, steal everything not nailed down and get out missions, I had the most fun with those and felt they were the real meat of the game

Thief 2 fixes both of those issues, for the most part. The in-game map of each level becomes more detailed, and has a marker for the room that the player is currently in. It also uses a different color for areas that have already been explored.

In general, the sequel plays more like an expansion pack, retaining pretty much all of the existing mechanics, with some improvements. You also get to do more thievery related stuff, including robbing a bank and such. The horror and supernatural elements take a back seat though, but they are still present to a degree.

I got distracted away from Final Fantasy XII by Doom 2016. What can I say, Doom still carries a lot of emotional weight for me, and with Doom: The Dark Ages on the horizon, despite Doom: Eternal not really doing it for me, I felt compelled to go back.

First, man, time is moving really fast. I can't believe this game came out 9 years ago already. Some of the shine has come off for me. Somehow Eternal made me hate the jumping puzzles in 2016 even more. Especially since in 2016 some of them just have instant death pits below them, unlike Eternal which put you back on the ledge minus some health if I remember correctly. But the gameplay just feels right, where I can settle in with one of my favorite weapons and just enjoy myself, versus Eternal having such a restrictive resource economy you had to constantly be juggling the chainsaw, the flamethrower, and all your other weapons just to get by.

I'm about halfway through, I think it takes me about 10 hours to beat Doom 2016 total, which is about the right length for an FPS in my opinion. All in all, it just holds up really well. I remember when I first played it, I was astounded that it was actually good. I think I remarked that it was like coming back to my childhood home, and my childhood pets were still alive, and my father too! There was no reason to expect Doom 2016 to be any good at all. Nobody who worked on any of the originals were even in the building any longer. And yet, impossibly, it was amazing.

A shame about Eternal. I may try The Dark Ages whenever it's on sale and they've taken Denuvo out of it.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-01-28, 19:14:

Congrats! And yeah, the final couple of levels were on the weaker side.

Thanks! System Shock 2 has very similar ending level, both make sense but aren't terribly fun. Oh well, you gotta try something different for the ending.

Thief 2 fixes both of those issues, for the most part. The in-game map of each level becomes more detailed, and has a marker for the room that the player is currently in. It also uses a different color for areas that have already been explored.
In general, the sequel plays more like an expansion pack, retaining pretty much all of the existing mechanics, with some improvements. You also get to do more thievery related stuff, including robbing a bank and such.

Yay!

The horror and supernatural elements take a back seat though, but they are still present to a degree.

Aw shucks.

I'll definitely check Thief 2 out, that's for sure. At some point, I'm not sure I have enough gas for it now and I really don't want to burn out in middle of it.

Sombrero wrote on 2025-01-28, 20:24:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-01-28, 19:14:

The horror and supernatural elements take a back seat though, but they are still present to a degree.

Aw shucks.

I'll definitely check Thief 2 out, that's for sure. At some point, I'm not sure I have enough gas for it now and I really don't want to burn out in middle of it.

If it's any consolation, Thief 3: Deadly Shadows brings back the horror and supernatural elements in a big way.

In fact, it has one of the most praised horror themed levels to this day - The Cradle. Playing that level in a dark room, using headphones with EAX 4.0 turned on amps up the atmosphere even further. People who dislike jump scares may want to be careful with that though.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-01-29, 14:38:

If it's any consolation, Thief 3: Deadly Shadows brings back the horror and supernatural elements in a big way.

In fact, it has one of the most praised horror themed levels to this day - The Cradle. Playing that level in a dark room, using headphones with EAX 4.0 turned on amps up the atmosphere even further. People who dislike jump scares may want to be careful with that though.

Yeah, I'm aware of the reputation of that level. I also HATE jump scares which is a funny thing to say as a huge Resident Evil 1&2 fan, but since it's very likely I'll be completing Thief 2 at some point I suppose I eventually will be checking the third one out too. How's that fourth one, alright/mediocre/crime against humanity?

Also about Thief 2, how much does it make use of table fog? The Radeon X700 PRO I've got in my Win98SE system can't do that in Win9x, though I haven't tried that registry edit trick yet.

So as far as I can see I can either run the game in Win98SE without table fog but with authentic EAX, or in WinXP with table fog and possibly imperfect EAX due to WDM drivers, or on another more modern system patched to newdark and use OpenAL Soft for full EAX effects which works by the way, tried with System Shock 2. Hard to say just how comparable it is to VxD Win9x EAX but it seems... fine?

Sombrero wrote on 2025-01-29, 16:09:

How's that fourth one, alright/mediocre/crime against humanity?

It's a complete reboot of the series, and I have never played it. From what I gather, "crime against humanity" would be the most fitting description.

Also about Thief 2, how much does it make use of table fog? The Radeon X700 PRO I've got in my Win98SE system can't do that in Win9x, though I haven't tried that registry edit trick yet.

Only two levels use table fog, but the effect is quite pronounced. Also, one of those two (Life of the Party) is the best level in the game, and probably the entire Thief series. If your rig with the X700 card is dual booting Win98SE and WinXP, I suggest playing it on the latter using Catalyst 7.11. That will give you 100% accurate table fog emulation. The Win9x registry tweak applied to Catalyst 6.2 can work, but it's imperfect, and doesn't look entirely accurate. Relevant screenshots:

So as far as I can see I can either run the game in Win98SE without table fog but with authentic EAX, or in WinXP with table fog and possibly imperfect EAX due to WDM drivers

I've only done some cursory tests on this, but it didn't seem like Thief 2 lost any EAX functionality when WDM drivers were used. Occlusion and reverb both worked fine. So I do recommend playing it under WinXP when using a Radeon card compatible with Catalyst 7.11 (R300 and above).