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DOS Gaming PC Questions from a DOS Newbie

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First post, by furyanwolf

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Hi everyone 😄

So, in the midst of buying parts for an ongoing Pentium III Windows 98 Gaming PC, I somehow got caught up in the sellers listings and impulsively opted to purchase a Socket 7 motherboard, CPU and RAM bundle, thus, kick starting yet another retro gaming PC project for which I must admit, I am ill prepared. Would be quite funny to run into the seller on this forum though 🤣.

Alas, I've done a fair bit of research on what I'm getting myself into, but I still have some questions for which I'd very much appreciate the opinions of you wonderful seasoned folks in such things, so I will try and structure the rest of this as clean and short as I can and get to the point(s).

The Goal
My goal is DOS gaming, and furthermore, it is to cast as wide a net as possible around as many games as possible with a single PC, keeping in mind that I will also have a Windows 98 Gaming PC for late 90's games so really I'm more focusing on the early 90's, maybe very late 80's era of DOS games. Given my research, I am very aware how funny that statement comes off, rest assured, I fully understand this is impossible to do with DOS gaming, however from what I've understood, the Pentium 166 - 200 range on a nice socket 7 platform such as the one I've gotten should generally cover a pretty big chunk of these games which is fine by me. Before anyone asks, I have no idea what I want to play. To be honest, I grew up with Quake 3 and Windows XP was the first real OS I had any significant experience with, DOS gaming was already in the past for me so I never really experienced it as a kid, I'd like to dive into it now though. Suffice to say, I'm happy to explore and would likely be most interested in the "popular" titles at first.

The Plan (so far)
So, as I've mentioned I've kick started this build with a nice little tested and working bundle that should be arriving in the post any day now. Here's what I got so far:

  • Asus P/I-P55T2P4 Rev 3.10 - Socket 7 motherboard - has 512KB pipeline burst cache onboard, supports bus speeds up to 83 Mhz
  • Intel Pentium 166 (non-MMX) CPU
  • 64 MB of EDO RAM
  • Brand new AT case I already had with a never used Mercury PSU that I believe should be 200W

From my research, this motherboard is/was very popular back in the day, so I'm excited for it. It also appears to have support for Pentium MMX CPUs should I wish to upgrade and with some BIOS flashing, should accommodate as far up as AMD late K6's, which I doubt I'd go up to as given my goal and understanding, staying around the 166 - 233 Mhz Intel Pentium range would be a best "wide net" DOS gaming machine.

The Questions
Most of my questions are recommendation questions to be honest, so here goes. Keeping in mind that for all of these, the main goal is "casting a wide DOS gaming net", thus, wide compatibility:

  1. What Graphics card(s) would you recommend? PCI Only
  2. What Sound card(s) would you recommend? PCI and/or ISA
  3. Should I acquire more RAM or 64 MB more than enough for games of this era?
  4. What OS would you recommend and why? Currently considering pure DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95 and Windows 98 SE
  5. This is an odd one but, what size heatsink should I be using? I was looking up some options on eBay and they all just seem so ... small to me. I don't want to damage my CPU, is there a minimum size recommended for Pentiums or should I just go with whatever I can find? (e.g. THIS Example which seems tiny to me)
  6. Will my 200W AT PSU be enough and should I worry about it being so old? Again, it's brand new (came with the case) and I'm guessing that's a good thing but I wasn't sure if I should be opening it up and checking things inside or just plug it in and hope for the best?

Thank in advance for anyone taking the time to answer 😄

Reply 1 of 53, by vetz

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furyanwolf wrote on 2025-02-10, 11:32:
Thank in advance for anyone taking the time to answer ^_^ […]
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  1. What Graphics card(s) would you recommend? PCI Only
  2. What Sound card(s) would you recommend? PCI and/or ISA
  3. Should I acquire more RAM or 64 MB more than enough for games of this era?
  4. What OS would you recommend and why? Currently considering pure DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95 and Windows 98 SE
  5. This is an odd one but, what size heatsink should I be using? I was looking up some options on eBay and they all just seem so ... small to me. I don't want to damage my CPU, is there a minimum size recommended for Pentiums or should I just go with whatever I can find? (e.g. THIS Example which seems tiny to me)
  6. Will my 200W AT PSU be enough and should I worry about it being so old? Again, it's brand new (came with the case) and I'm guessing that's a good thing but I wasn't sure if I should be opening it up and checking things inside or just plug it in and hope for the best?

Thank in advance for anyone taking the time to answer 😄

1. I'd go with either a Matrox Millennium / G200 or a S3 Virge (reputable brand) or a Nvidia card (Riva128, TNT, TNT2). I prefer the Matrox cards myself due to the excellent VGA output quality. I'd also pair it with a Voodoo if you can get your hands on one.
2. AWE64. Easiest and cheapest to get hands of. The soon to launch MK1869 will also be a good fit.
3. DOS + Win95/Win98SE. I'd have Windows 9x in some form or another. It adds to the amount of games you can play and I personally prefer using Windows for disk management and transfering files over SMB.
4. The heatsinks of this era was very small. My Compaq came with a passive heatsink. I'd not worry about this. The ebay link example is a typical Socket 7 heatsink with fan.
5. 200W is more than enough.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
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Reply 2 of 53, by Shponglefan

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Congrats on taking the plunge into the world of DOS gaming! There are lots of great classic games, so I'm sure you'll have fun diving into that period of gaming history. 😁

DOS gaming covers a wide period (about 1981 to 1997-98). Though most people tend to focus on games from the 1990s. A Pentium 166 will be a good performer for a lot of games from that period, though some of the earlier 90s games (and into the 80s) may need some slowing down due to speed sensitivity. Since you don't know which specific games you're looking to play, that may end up being a non-issue.

For the specific questions:

1) GPU Recommendation: My favorite is the nVidia Riva 128 PCI. In my experience it's the best rounded when it comes to image quality, DOS performance, and compatibility. S3 cards are also highly compatible, but tend to have worse image quality. Matrox cards (Millennium/Mystique) offer great image quality and performance, but are less compatible with some DOS games.

2) Sound Card Recommendation: DOS sound card options is a very deep rabbit hole. Wide compatibility would involve multiple sound cards, but since you're just getting started, I'd probably stick to just one. My recommendation would be an ISA sound card based on the Yamaha YMF-71x chipset paired with a wavetable daughterboard like a DreamBlaster X2GS SE. The Yamaha cards have good Sound Blaster / Sound Blaster Pro support, genuine OPL for FM synthesis (Adlib support), and a wavetable header, which you can use with the daughterboard for General MIDI support. This cover a wide range of audio options for DOS gaming. A Creative Labs AWE64 is another option that will provide Sound Blaster / Sound Blaster Pro / Sound Blaster 16 / AWE32 compatibility. Though its FM synthesis (Adlib support) leaves something to be desired and it lacks a wavetable header for General MIDI daughtercards.

3) 64MB is more than enough RAM for DOS games. Most DOS games won't use more than 16MB.

4) Since you mention you're working on a Windows 98 already, I'd probably stick to DOS 6.22. You could always install Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 if you're curious what those operating systems are like.

5) A basic 60mm heatsink and fan combo will be more than enough for a Socket 7 CPU.

6) 200W is enough power for a Socket 7 CPU. My concern would be on the quality of the PSU and whether it's well built or not. Unfortunately there are some really cheaply made PSUs out there that are of questionable quality.

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 3 of 53, by Joseph_Joestar

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furyanwolf wrote on 2025-02-10, 11:32:

Intel Pentium 166 (non-MMX) CPU

You actually want a Pentium MMX if the goal is to play a wide range of DOS games.

This is because MMX CPUs can be slowed down easily to 386 and 486 speeds, which is helpful for some older games. See this video by Phil for more details.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Core 2 Duo E8600 / Foxconn P35AX-S / X800 / Audigy2 ZS
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 4 of 53, by dionb

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What Graphics card(s) would you recommend? PCI Only

DOS doesn't use fancy acceleration features on cards, but good VESA SVGA BIOS support is useful for titles that use it. Also note (analog) image quality is relevant.

In terms of compatibility and wide availability, you can't beat S3 (8xx/9xx/Trio/Virge)-based cards. However image quality can be very poor (cards frequently have a white or even yellowish haze over everything). Only go for S3 if you can find a good brand that (Diamond, ELSA, Miro, Number Nine etc).

Otherwise, look for less common Cirrus Logic GD543x or Ark Logic 1000/2000 cards. Not so period-correct, but nVidia and 3DFx PCI cards would also work and have excellent VESA compatibility - but for DOS alone they're pretty overkill (and in the case of 3DFx overpriced)

Avoid ATi and Matrox for poor VESA support and surprisingly mediocre speed in the case of the former.

See here for compatibility reports:
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

What Sound card(s) would you recommend? PCI and/or ISA

This is a massive rabbit hole. But to keep it simple:
- ISA, not PCI
- if you want MIDI, avoid Creative (basically all their cards are more or less buggy)
- for the older stuff, you want a real Yamaha OPL3 chip/core
- I find non-Plug&Play cards easier to deal with, but this is a very light preference.

Cheaply available and generally good enough meeting these requirements: cards based on Aztech AZT2316 and OPTi 930 chipsets. For wavetable MIDI audio, you can get versions of these cards with wavetable on them, or (easier) get an Dreamblaster board from Serdashop.

If you want it all, you will probably need two cards in your system. Generally this would involve one Sound Blaster 16 (or AWE32/64) for SB16 and one card for bug-free MIDI (which could be one of the ones listed above).

Should I acquire more RAM or 64 MB more than enough for games of this era?

Depends entirely on your OS. Pure DOS works best with 16MB. There are games that have faulty memory detection routines that refuse to run with 64MB.
Win3.x runs fine with 16MB too.

Win95/98 is a different game, with Win95 liking 24-32MB and Win98SE >=64MB. Note that for 64MB you need to have a second TagRAM chip on your motherboard to be able to cache it.

What OS would you recommend and why? Currently considering pure DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95 and Windows 98 SE

If you're already building a P3 for Win98SE, I'd stick to DOS and (if curious only) Win3.11. Win95 would run fine on this hardware, a lot of Win95 games would run better on the P3. Win98SE would just about run OK, but no Win98SE games would be playable.

Also, choices for VGA and sound get a lot more complicated if you have to take multiple OS into account. Given you're asking these questions you're probably not that experienced - so keep it simple 😉

This is an odd one but, what size heatsink should I be using? I was looking up some options on eBay and they all just seem so ... small to me. I don't want to damage my CPU, is there a minimum size recommended for Pentiums or should I just go with whatever I can find? (e.g. THIS Example which seems tiny to me)

That tiny heatsink+fan would be fine - but loud. Look up how much power these things dissipate. 16W or so. That is peanuts compared to say the P3s you're probably thinking of. One bit of nostalgia I don't like is all the noises of period-correct cooling. Insted I prefer to stick a big heatsink onto something like this, but keep it passive. So long as you have decent airflow in the case that will be fine. I have a stock P3 aluminium heatsink without fan on the MediaGX-300 in front of me, which is comparible to a P166 in terms of heat.

Will my 200W AT PSU be enough and should I worry about it being so old? Again, it's brand new (came with the case) and I'm guessing that's a good thing but I wasn't sure if I should be opening it up and checking things inside or just plug it in and hope for the best?

Wattage isn't an issue, age and quality is. Never heard of 'Mercury' so I'm suspicious about it. It's entirely possible the capacitors in the PSU have degraded over the years.

One quick and dirty test to at least rule out catastrophic failure is to get your least beloved HDD and hook that up as a load to the PSU (with nothing else connected). Turn it on and see what happens. Fireworks? Bad news. But at least you didn't toast your motherboard. Happily spinning drive? That tells you +12V , +5V and GND are at least somewhere near where where they should be. No guarantee that all the levels are correct, but at least it's unlikely you'll get fireworks when hooking up your board.

Reply 5 of 53, by SScorpio

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Getting a Pentium 166 MMX or 233 MMX is highly recommended due to their mentioned ability to hit a wide range of speed options which will allow a very wide range of speed sensitive games to be dialed in.

Next you need to think about what you want to play. If you look at the previously linked graphics card matrix you'll see issues with certain games. However, a single issue doesn't matter if you'll never play that game.

It's the same with sound cards. You'll want an ISA card, but there are many options and price points. I'm a fan of using PnP sound cards paired with Unisound to allow one the fly resource switching so allow multiple cards to work together based on the game being used. I'm currently a big proponent of pair a PicoGUS along side a Sound Blaster 16. The PicoGUS can handle Sound Blaster 2, OPL2, GUS, Tandy, CMS, and error free intelligent MIDI. While the Sound Blaster 16 can give 16 bit digital sound playback for late DOS games.

Just go with an inexpensive graphics card, and a Sound Baster 16. Have fun learning DOS and the games, and then see what you'd like to improve.

64MB of RAM can cause issues in some DOS games. 32MB is more compatible. But try with what you have an see if their are issues.

To start maybe go with an expensive PCI graphics card,

Reply 6 of 53, by furyanwolf

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Woah, so many in depth replies! Thank you all 😄

1. Just spent the last hour or so digging into the GPU info you all provided and doing additional research and market research around it. I'm in the UK so prices here are kinda wild, so cards like Voodoos are pretty much out of the question right now. That said, the stars must've been aligned because I found ONE nVidia RIVA 128 for sale and ironically, from the very same seller I got the board from haha xD Alas, given everything I've learned, the Graphics Card has now been chosen, purchase and Question #1 is now dealt with! Thank you all for the in depth breakdown! I considered an S3 as well but given the price difference was not too big and your skeptical reviews, opted for the Riva instead. 😀

2. As for the sound card, I WISH that AWE32/64 cards were "cheap" but in the UK they are not. I will keep an eye out since they seem to be fairly well liked. I'm happy to go for 2 sounds cards too and most likely will stick with an ISA card if I opt for just 1 for starters. I kinda of expected this would be the answer tbh 😜 I suppose I will start doing some research into some of the ones you all mentioned. I think I need to learn a little bit more about various types of audio playback in the 90's and late 80's, but I appreciate all the good suggestions you all provided, I will be looking into them!

3. Seems I'm should be good on RAM for my purposes, I think I will consider this point resolved for now as well 😀

4. I had a feeling I'd be cutting off the edges of my OS options, though I'm still open to pure DOS, I'll admit it seems a tad more intimidating that having a UI. That said, I'll probably drop Windows 98 SE out of the pool, what with the P3 already covering that and with the specs being more geared toward the earlier 90's, I'm starting to warm to the idea of Windows 3.1 or Windows 95. I shall have to do more research into the sound cards first and see what's compatible with which OS, but I'm starting to think one of these 2 might work best for me.

5. I'll consider the heat sink dilemma closed as well. I'm not too fussed about sounds tbh as I'm already used to the ever present fan hum of my modern workstation. I will try and find a slightly bigger heatsink if i can for my own paranoid peace of mind, but I appreciate the replies, if that fails, I'll stick with a small and a working fan on it 😜

6. At last, the power supply issue is probably the scariest, I neither want to blow my components up nor start a fire. I will try and find a PSU tester that supports the P8 and P9 connectors as well, if not, perhaps the hard drive test is not such a bad idea 😜 My thinking was, since it was new and never used, than maybe, hopefully, it would be fairly safe but I had an inkling that age alone might still have degraded some parts. Our of curiosity, how do you all tend to handle the old PSU question? Do you buy and test, buy already tested, new old stock?

As to the CPU, I'll see if I can get my hands on an MMX version as well just in case. I have read some other threads on VOGONS that praised the 200MMX though also seen some talk about some kind of 200 Mhz errors. Will do a it more research around these but if I find a good deal, I might just acquire one as well. I was under the impression however that the non-MMX 166 I got in the bundle should be able to downclock or perhaps I might be able to turn off caches to slow down as well no?

Thanks again everyone! And more replies to the yet unresolved points are still welcomed 😄

Reply 7 of 53, by SScorpio

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Since you were able to get a Riva 128, it might be worth playing with Win95 if you want to play any early Direct3D games. The Riva 128 has about the same performance of the Voodoo 1, but it of course doesn't support GLIDE. It does handle Direct3D better than an original Voodoo. Just something to keep in mind if run into problems with any early games on your P3 Win98 system.

As for the PSU, unless you end up with a really old sound card that needs the -5V rail, you could always use an ATX PSU with an adapter cable.

Reply 8 of 53, by britain4

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I’m in the UK too and AWE32/64 cards certainly aren’t a cheap option here these days. I was “lucky” to find a physically damaged one for £15 and repair it myself.

Not to mention on top of that, without an also-expensive proprietary RAM expansion you are limited to 512kb/1mb/4mb Soundfonts instead of a wavetable header.

My personal choice would be a YMF71x / ESS Audiodrive, and a Dreamblaster for General MIDI instead (the S2 is very good, GS versions with the Roland bank even better).

I use a 233MMX and the excellent guide by Phil’s Computer Lab on throttling it. I don’t believe this is possible with a non-MMX. https://www.philscomputerlab.com/136-in-1-pentium-mmx.html

- 486DX2-66, SoundBlaster 16, Crystal VLB graphics
- P-MMX 200MHZ, PCChips M598LMR, Voodoo 1, AD1816
- PIII 933MHz, MSI MS6119, Voodoo3 3000, SB Live!
- PIII 1400MHz, ECS P6IPAT, Voodoo5 5500, SB Audigy

Reply 9 of 53, by acl

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furyanwolf wrote on 2025-02-10, 16:33:
Woah, so many in depth replies! Thank you all ^_^ […]
Show full quote

Woah, so many in depth replies! Thank you all 😄

1. Just spent the last hour or so digging into the GPU info you all provided and doing additional research and market research around it. I'm in the UK so prices here are kinda wild, so cards like Voodoos are pretty much out of the question right now. That said, the stars must've been aligned because I found ONE nVidia RIVA 128 for sale and ironically, from the very same seller I got the board from haha xD Alas, given everything I've learned, the Graphics Card has now been chosen, purchase and Question #1 is now dealt with! Thank you all for the in depth breakdown! I considered an S3 as well but given the price difference was not too big and your skeptical reviews, opted for the Riva instead. 😀

2. As for the sound card, I WISH that AWE32/64 cards were "cheap" but in the UK they are not. I will keep an eye out since they seem to be fairly well liked. I'm happy to go for 2 sounds cards too and most likely will stick with an ISA card if I opt for just 1 for starters. I kinda of expected this would be the answer tbh 😜 I suppose I will start doing some research into some of the ones you all mentioned. I think I need to learn a little bit more about various types of audio playback in the 90's and late 80's, but I appreciate all the good suggestions you all provided, I will be looking into them!

3. Seems I'm should be good on RAM for my purposes, I think I will consider this point resolved for now as well 😀

4. I had a feeling I'd be cutting off the edges of my OS options, though I'm still open to pure DOS, I'll admit it seems a tad more intimidating that having a UI. That said, I'll probably drop Windows 98 SE out of the pool, what with the P3 already covering that and with the specs being more geared toward the earlier 90's, I'm starting to warm to the idea of Windows 3.1 or Windows 95. I shall have to do more research into the sound cards first and see what's compatible with which OS, but I'm starting to think one of these 2 might work best for me.

5. I'll consider the heat sink dilemma closed as well. I'm not too fussed about sounds tbh as I'm already used to the ever present fan hum of my modern workstation. I will try and find a slightly bigger heatsink if i can for my own paranoid peace of mind, but I appreciate the replies, if that fails, I'll stick with a small and a working fan on it 😜

6. At last, the power supply issue is probably the scariest, I neither want to blow my components up nor start a fire. I will try and find a PSU tester that supports the P8 and P9 connectors as well, if not, perhaps the hard drive test is not such a bad idea 😜 My thinking was, since it was new and never used, than maybe, hopefully, it would be fairly safe but I had an inkling that age alone might still have degraded some parts. Our of curiosity, how do you all tend to handle the old PSU question? Do you buy and test, buy already tested, new old stock?

As to the CPU, I'll see if I can get my hands on an MMX version as well just in case. I have read some other threads on VOGONS that praised the 200MMX though also seen some talk about some kind of 200 Mhz errors. Will do a it more research around these but if I find a good deal, I might just acquire one as well. I was under the impression however that the non-MMX 166 I got in the bundle should be able to downclock or perhaps I might be able to turn off caches to slow down as well no?

Thanks again everyone! And more replies to the yet unresolved points are still welcomed 😄

ESS Audiodrive ES1868F based sound cards are cheap, compatible and easy to configure.

I use an ET6100 in my DOS system but they are hard to find. What about PCI TsengLabs ET4000 ?

This is pretty much what I use. MMX233 underclocked when needed. ES1868 (+sc55) and ET6100. 32MB EDO

"Hello, my friend. Stay awhile and listen..."
My collection (not up to date)

Reply 10 of 53, by Shponglefan

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furyanwolf wrote on 2025-02-10, 16:33:

2. As for the sound card, I WISH that AWE32/64 cards were "cheap" but in the UK they are not.

Creative Labs cards do tend to command a premium especially the AWE32 cards. AWE64 Value cards are a bit cheaper, but not necessarily the cheapest option.

This is one of the main reasons I recommend a card based on the Yamaha YMF71x chipset. They tend to be both inexpensive (relatively speaking) and readily available.

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 11 of 53, by dionb

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furyanwolf wrote on 2025-02-10, 16:33:

[...]

2. As for the sound card, I WISH that AWE32/64 cards were "cheap" but in the UK they are not. I will keep an eye out since they seem to be fairly well liked. I'm happy to go for 2 sounds cards too and most likely will stick with an ISA card if I opt for just 1 for starters. I kinda of expected this would be the answer tbh 😜 I suppose I will start doing some research into some of the ones you all mentioned. I think I need to learn a little bit more about various types of audio playback in the 90's and late 80's, but I appreciate all the good suggestions you all provided, I will be looking into them!

If you want to read up on this, the thing to understand is that a 1990s sound card actually combines multiple more-or-less audio related functionalities.

Common ones:
FM-synth (creating audio from waveform manipulation - decent-ish music with very small RAM requirements). First common implementation: the AdLib music card. Chip OPL2 (mono) or OPL3 (stereo).
Digital audio (playback of digital samples - as good as the sample quality, but uses up a lot of storage). First common implementation: Creative's SoundBlaster. Later versions SBPro, SBPro2, SB16 and (non-Creative) WSS.
MPU-401 MIDI interface - not a sound interface as such, but a way of talking between instruments. Basically sends messages of time, instrument, note and duration. Note that it does not specify *which* instrument should be at the number or how it should sound.
General MIDI (GM) - not a functionality as such, a standard for which instrument should be at which number in MIDI messages. Still doesn't guarantee everything will sound the same, but at least with GM you don't get a bagpipe when you were expecting a whistle - at least, assuming the music was written for GM and is being played on a GM synth.
Wavetable synth (creating music from pre-recorded samples on card, very lightweight) - a MIDI synth. First common implementation (debatable): Roland SC-55 module or SCC-1 card. Later reduced to small waveblaster module or one or two chips on cards. Note that the MT-32 you will often read about is a MIDI synth but not exactly a wavetable one, LA synthesis is somewhere between that and FM synth.
Game port - a joystick port. Functions identically on 99% of sound cards that have one. Some don't. First common implementation (on a sound card): Creative's SoundBlaster.

Basically every sound card combines some or all of these functionalities and does so with differing levels of support, quality and bugs (SoundBlaster 16's MPU-401 interfaces...). Some cards offer functionalities not listed, particularly some old ones (Tandy, Covox, CMS etc), but bascially everything from about 1991 onwards will do at least one of these things, and there are lively debates about how well they do it 😉

Also note that drivers basically aren't a thing under DOS. Programs address the hardware directly. When people talk about DOS 'drivers' they are actually referring to either initialization tools that set up the hardware and then stop running, or to TSR programs that augment or enable the hardware (such as mixer programs or compatibility layers). "Hardware compatibility" in general means that the latter aren't needed. So the Aztech 2316 and OPTi 930 chips I referred to earlier are hardware-compatible with the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. A Gravis Ultrasound is a beast of a card but it isn't and requires nasty emulation software to (attempt to) achieve the same compatibility in things that don't support it natively.

4. I had a feeling I'd be cutting off the edges of my OS options, though I'm still open to pure DOS, I'll admit it seems a tad more intimidating that having a UI. That said, I'll probably drop Windows 98 SE out of the pool, what with the P3 already covering that and with the specs being more geared toward the earlier 90's, I'm starting to warm to the idea of Windows 3.1 or Windows 95. I shall have to do more research into the sound cards first and see what's compatible with which OS, but I'm starting to think one of these 2 might work best for me.

Sound under Windows is a completely different kettle of fish compared to DOS. Windows (even 3.x) has its own sound system that programmers code for and use drivers to translate that into instructions for the cards. That means that in general sound is far less hardware-dependent. One thing that is similar in the Windows 3.x and 95 era is the use of MIDI, but in Windows you can run a softsynth to make sound from MIDI instructions instead of needing a piece of dedicated hardware. It does cost CPU cycles though, which is an issue with a system from the period you are looking at.

A side-effect of the hardware abstraction is that PCI sound cards are far more viable in WIndows 95 onwards. It's common in dualboot systems to have a PCI card that isn't initialized in DOS and an ISA card that isn't used in Windows.

Reply 12 of 53, by Shponglefan

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dionb wrote on 2025-02-10, 19:05:

Note that the MT-32 you will often read about is a MIDI synth but not exactly a wavetable one, LA synthesis is somewhere between that and FM synth.

LA Synthesis used in the MT-32 does use PCM samples, but it combines sample playback with subtractive synthesis.

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 13 of 53, by AppleSauce

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So the biggest stumbling block you'll encounter with DOS games is the sound hardware , it can get pretty expensive trying to cover all the bases and a bit convoluted, so I'd start with maybe going on youtube and looking up soundtracks of games of the era using different sound devices and deciding which sort of synthesis method you like best (FM , LA , Rompler , Sampler , PSG etc).

Then try an emulator like PCem or 86box to experiment with setting up the irqs and dmas in a virtual environment and getting to grips with using a command line based OS. And then move on from there before you sink more money into the hobby.

In terms of casting a wide net maybe start a bit more focused to begin with , and speaking as someone who has gone down the proverbial rabbit hole and has set up a socket 7 pc that does a shotgun spread of different hardware under the one roof: MIDI stack , Gravis, AWE64 Gold , Tandy , SB16 it was a crazy big challenge and getting it all to work was a nightmare so I'd recommend just focusing on one kind of sound device to start , maybe a sound blaster of some sort with FM , people have mentioned the awe64 , that isn't a bad place to start but I believe it uses CQM which is creative copy of OPL and some people aren't a fan of its sound so maybe ESS or other brand with a yammaha chip might be a better bet. Anywho experiment around a bit and see how you go.

Reply 14 of 53, by chinny22

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Don't have much more to add.

Socket 7 is going to spend most it's gaming time in dos but Win9x gives you a nice GUI for file management and the underlying dos 7 has a few nice features over 6.22 like supports fat32 and long file names.
If your also setting up a P3, I'd recommend setting up networking which is a bit easier in 9x as well. Win95 or Win98 is your choice, but that can wait till after you have gotten your feet wet

If your really worried about the PSU you do have AT to ATX adapters that allow you to use a modern PSU in an old AT system.

Reply 15 of 53, by danieljm

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I see a handful of people mentioning MIDI options, but I would suggest you don't worry about that yet. It's complicated and expensive and it wasn't the way 99% of people experienced DOS games back in the day. Don't get me wrong, it's another fun rabbit-hole to dive into, but it's a lot more money to throw at a thing that you are just dipping your toe into right now.

Just focus on a Sound Blaster compatible card with a good OPL3 implementation and you'll have a great all-around experience.

Reply 16 of 53, by Jo22

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Shponglefan wrote on 2025-02-10, 18:18:
furyanwolf wrote on 2025-02-10, 16:33:

2. As for the sound card, I WISH that AWE32/64 cards were "cheap" but in the UK they are not.

Creative Labs cards do tend to command a premium especially the AWE32 cards. AWE64 Value cards are a bit cheaper, but not necessarily the cheapest option.

This is one of the main reasons I recommend a card based on the Yamaha YMF71x chipset. They tend to be both inexpensive (relatively speaking) and readily available.

The Sound Blaster 32 (SB32) is also an alternative, it has the EMU8k too.
Then there's the lesser known Goldfinch card, which can be paired with a PAS16, early non-PnP SB16 or any other sound card.

Personally, I've never been a huge fan of the AWEs or PnP models.
They were fine on Windows 98 which has Plug&Play/DirectSound, but on plain MSDOS.. Oh well.

My old SB16 CT1740 was far easier to use on DOS, none of the Creative software was absolutely needed. Everything could be hardwired via jumpers.
(The ASP/CSP chip on the older SB16 series also was more cruicial than EMU8k, maybe, since it did support some form of acceleration on Windows 9x.)

The EMU8000 chip of the AWEs is a fine thing, though.
It's been supported directly by a couple of MOD players/trackers, such as Impulse Tracker (IT), AMP or AMP for Windows.

https://r3m.narod.ru/old/M_AWE_SB_Live_PAGE.htm

I wished there were Goldfinch replicas, they would allow us to have the EMU8K working in tandem with YMF71x cards or modern GUS cards.

Edit:@ danieljm It depends, I think. Sure, many of us had a Sound Blaster compatible with FM chip way back in the 90s.
(I had an PAS16, which consisted of two PCM two sound systems and an OPL3.)

On other hand, the PC games magazines did mention things like "Roland" sound, too and thus many players were aware of the existence of it.
And with the advent of AWEs, many players had the opportunity to experience emulated Roland music first time.

Well, sort of. The MT-32/MPU-401 emulation was being limited to real-mode games and didn't support custom instruments.
Something like SOMI 1 was about the only thing that did sound faithfully, perhaps.

That's why Creative tried to push support for native EMU8000 support in newer games, I heard (read).
The EMU8000 was directly accessible, without the need for an MPU-401 MIDI interface.

Same goes for Gravis GF1 chip and the OPL4, I think.
The latter two were being supported by MOD4WIN, too, but not many OPL4 soundcards had wavetable RAM (Audiotrix Pro had it).

Edit: I think that an DB50XG daughter card (or compatible) makes for an nice addition to an SB16 (or SB32).
It's an Yamaha XG compatible and similar to Yamaha MU80. Some YMF chipset cards might include XG, as well.
In games like Descent 1 (shareware), the DB50XG sounds nicely savage I think.

But there's a software solution, as well. The S-XYG50 soft synth is available for Windows 9x (VxD, aka "S-YXG100 Plus") and 2k/XP (WDM). The standalone version, I mean, not some VSTi.
It's been also part of an Windows XP system files upgrade (1403848.cab), I think.

Such a soft synth can be used on an external PC that then acts like a MIDI module to your DOS retro PC.
That external PC can be a thin client or an old x86 settop box, maybe.
If no expansion slots for a sound/MIDI card are available then an USB MIDI cable can be used, too, for example.
Windows 98SE is more lightweight, maybe and causes less trouble with flash cards (SD, CF).

There's an interesting history about the Yamaha synths, btw: https://veg.by/en/blog/2016/04/25/yamaha-midi-synth-history/

Edit: Sorry for the long post, I was just thinking out loud again.
It wasn't meant as criticism or something. I also think that solid FM support comes first, it's was many games used.

Though I also highly recommend building (or buying) a Covox SpeechThing! 😁
It's fun to do and some games support it natively. SimAnt, Last Half of Darkness, Pinball Fantasies, ElectroBody, etc.
And especially fast DOS PCs (386 to Pentium) are well suited for Covox.
For a stereo version, see Stereo-on-1. Mod Play Pro has schematics.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 17 of 53, by furyanwolf

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Thank you ALL again for your time and in depth replies! 😄

I have taken some time since the last post to dive deeper into the yet unresolved topics, studied all your detailed replies and as of now here is where my initial queries stand (ordered by resolution status):

1. GPU: RESOLVED - nVidia Riva 128
3. RAM: RESOLVED - will stick with 32MB - 64MB EDO RAM
5. HEAT: RESOLVED - any socket 7 heatsink with good fan

4. OS: TENTATIVE - leaning towards Windows 95, think it will be a better experience for me overall having a familiar-ish UI. Still open to Windows 3.1 if necessary but highly likely to be Win95 at this point.
6. PSU: TENTATIVE - decided I will opt for NEW PSU with AT adapters, been reading too many stories of near or full blown disasters with old AT PSU stock. Just need to better understand power button mechanics for AT cases and I should be good to go
7. CPU: OPEN TO - a Pentium 233 MMX may be harder to acquire than anticipated, would a 200MMX fulfill the same easy downclock functions as the 233? What about a 166 MMX?

Finally, the real meat and potatoes of my reply:
2. SOUND: TENTATIVE - Options below:

  • PREFERRED - Yamaha A151-A00 featuring a 71x OPL3-SAx chip
  • OPEN TO - Creative Sound Blaster 16 CT2940 WITH an OPL3 chip on board
  • OPEN TO - OPTi 82C930 by "Pro-Multimedia"

Thank you all again for the dense and in depth sound card discussion, props to dionb for that crash course into what some of these terms really mean. I've since stumbled onto THIS lovely site and tried to gain an even better understanding of all this sound wild west. Between what I've learnt and what the market currently has available at a reasonable price at this exact moment in time, I've come up with the list above. There IS also a Creative AWE64 Gold floating about but it's a bit too rich for my blood right now.

So, my reasoning for preferring the Yamaha card is that it seems to be the least problematic of the available bunch and also features the best OPL3 chip, being a 71x rather and the 289 on the Sound Blaster. I'm also honestly still confused on whether this particular Sound Blaster model would have that "hanging bug" I've read about and also the sentiment I've gathered seems to be that the Yamaha puts out cleaner overall sound than this Sound Blaster? The OPTi 930 is really just there as an alternative right now.

All that said, I would love to know what you all think about these 3 specific options, what would YOU choose out of these 3 and if it's not the Yamaha, then why? 😜 I tend to have an itchy/impulsive shopping trigger finger so I may or may not purchase one in the meantime if my heart settles but I would still love to know what you all think! 😄 Thanks!

Reply 18 of 53, by RetroPCCupboard

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I've learned a few things from this thread also. Plenty of wisdom to be found in this vogons community, and members are always eager to help.

Reply 19 of 53, by RetroPCCupboard

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furyanwolf wrote on 2025-02-11, 20:28:

7. CPU: OPEN TO - a Pentium 233 MMX may be harder to acquire than anticipated, would a 200MMX fulfill the same easy downclock functions as the 233? What about a 166 MMX?

Is this out of your price range?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126922438857

I am not affiliated with this seller, but they seem to have a good rating