I'm taking another look at the table from
https://web.archive.org/web/20000815054342/ht … ertainment.html

Not sure if the info from Immersion is really reliable.

The table does not flag MDK as being Sidewinder only. But I believe it is.
Also NFS-SE is not flagged as being not compatible with Sidewinder. I believe it uses i-force 1 only and is not compatible with sidewinder.

So, does anyone got MDK with FF working on non-sidewinder devices?
And what about NFS-SE with a sidewinder device? The DOS version is i-force 1 only. I can't find any info on the windows version.

Plane Crazy is also listed. I'm not even sure if the game does support FFB.
If it does, it might be i-force 1 only. I could never get it do have ffb on modern devices and on a sidewinder ffb pro (gameport)

sonik wrote on 2024-11-18, 21:38:

I'm taking another look at the table from https://web.archive.org/web/20000815054342/ht … ertainment.html […]
Show full quote

I'm taking another look at the table from
https://web.archive.org/web/20000815054342/ht … ertainment.html

Not sure if the info from Immersion is really reliable.

The table does not flag MDK as being Sidewinder only. But I believe it is.
Also NFS-SE is not flagged as being not compatible with Sidewinder. I believe it uses i-force 1 only and is not compatible with sidewinder.

So, does anyone got MDK with FF working on non-sidewinder devices?
And what about NFS-SE with a sidewinder device? The DOS version is i-force 1 only. I can't find any info on the windows version.

Although more focused on NFS2 this post mentions NFS1 and that only the gameport version works, USB version does not.
Re: Force Feedback in NFS SE and NFS II SE?

sonik wrote on 2024-11-18, 21:38:

Not sure if the info from Immersion is really reliable.

It is not: like many licensors they tended to over-promote adoption of their support, but it at least provides a good starting point to check. The only way to tell for sure is direct testing, and there are a lot of titles for that, though some light could be shed without having to go so far by viewing on-disc README files and troubleshooting guides which are generally where the technical details are found.

I have in my possesion now a i-force joystick (USB) and a sidewinder ffb (gameport).
Been testing some games but the lower windows that I can run is Win98SE and this might be a problem for some games. Also, it's not clear if the i-force games requires serial or if works with usb devices.
Going to document my findings and publish it someday.

sonik wrote on 2025-01-17, 00:08:

I have in my possesion now a i-force joystick (USB) and a sidewinder ffb (gameport).
Been testing some games but the lower windows that I can run is Win98SE and this might be a problem for some games. Also, it's not clear if the i-force games requires serial or if works with usb devices.
Going to document my findings and publish it someday.

Neither of those is an I-Force 1.0 device, but can still rule some things out. Windows 98SE should work great, since it supports a minimum of DirectX 6 which covers I-Force 2.0 (though to keep things consistent I would not recommend upgrading DirectX past 7.0a unless a tested game absolutely requires it). Looking forward to your findings.

What's the thing with iforce versions 1.0 and 2.0?

From my understanding, there's the iforce firmware inside the hardware, and the driver/dll on the pc side...
The hardware should be all the same. Same protocol, just running over usb or serial.
And the software could be iforce 1.0 and iforce 2.0. Iforce 2.0 should be just a wrapper to direct-x.

I'm wrong? 🤣

EDIT:
The unofficial linux driver documentation contains this:
"This document describes what I managed to discover about the protocol used to specify force effects to I-Force 2.0 device"
The driver supports both serial and usb devices.

sonik wrote on 2025-01-17, 19:22:

What's the thing with iforce versions 1.0 and 2.0? […]
Show full quote

What's the thing with iforce versions 1.0 and 2.0?

From my understanding, there's the iforce firmware inside the hardware, and the driver/dll on the pc side...
The hardware should be all the same. Same protocol, just running over usb or serial.
And the software could be iforce 1.0 and iforce 2.0. Iforce 2.0 should be just a wrapper to direct-x.

I'm wrong? 🤣

EDIT:
The unofficial linux driver documentation contains this:
"This document describes what I managed to discover about the protocol used to specify force effects to I-Force 2.0 device"
The driver supports both serial and usb devices.

I am not the one qualified to explain the technical aspects, just understanding of the practicality: different protocols are proven by the fact that functions work in some games with certain devices and not in others. Distinguishing what does and does not was the purpose of my starting this topic, and I hope your testing can shed further light. Unfortunately backwards compatibility with I-Force 1.0 does not seem to exist (maybe someone can write a driver addressing this, but demand is limited because only a handful of games are affected), and the only I-Force 1.0 device I am aware of is the CH Force FX which is a rare find today.

Update:
I've finally got a i-force serial device.
It's a American Anko AVB Force Feedback Racing Wheel and looks like it's possible to also mod it for USB by wiring a cable to it's main board.
Unfortunately I can't even test it right now as I don't have any means to use a Serial device. Tested with a Serial to USB adapter and it does not work.

Does anyone knows how to mod it for USB? And how to disassemble the unit? I can't even get mine to open.

On the topic of i-force 1.0 vs i-force 2.0.
By comparing the official (serial) source code from immersion and the unofficial linux (serial and usb) driver, I've seen that most of the commands are the same, but there's some differences.
ie: there's a immersion command to grab the firmware's build date. This does not work on my other i-force usb device.
There's also a command to detect the number of axes. This one might not be required on USB devices, as the HID descriptor already have that info.
I really need to get that serial wheel working to dig deeper.

If those source commands can be harnessed by a wrapper or emulator, that could preserve force feedback protocols for the retro gaming future. So far as I know no one else has really tried because video and audio standards have always been the higher priorities. A sticking point could be the fact that there remains little enthusiasm for new force feedback controllers outside the racing market (good thing 90s-vintage Sidewinders are virtually indestructible).

I've got a similar AVB wheel from these days, only slightly different model - gc-fbw7 mac turboforce and it has a Serial as well as a usb connection dangling off the same cord. So I think, the serial and USB should be compatible.

IIRC, it was even detected as USB-to-Serial interface in the Windows XP's device manager.

It had drives for Windows 95/98 and they were bundled with Immersion splash screens and everything. They've also got some optional Immersion utility called "I-Feel" or something, which captured audio output and translated it to the Wheel's motors - pretty high detailed and like zero latency, you could've almost hear audio coming from the motor.

Not sure about compatibility with IForce 1.0, but I can test that.

The FFB effects in NFS5 were mind boggling in Windows 98. I've never experienced anything like this since then. Even those modern ACC and others aren't even close still to be honest. I think, some important knowledge was lost during 98-> XP transition.

I want able to get proper force feedback in NFS5 since after Windows 98. Only some sort of lame vibration.

Zoomer wrote on 2025-02-24, 18:39:

They've also got some optional Immersion utility called "I-Feel" or something, which captured audio output and translated it to the Wheel's motors - pretty high detailed and like zero latency, you could've almost hear audio coming from the motor.

That was actually a standard way to generate haptic feedback without the need for resorting to proprietary protocols and is an older approach (look up the "Aura Interactor" for 16-bit consoles). The new standard is generating context-sensitive vibrations such as through commands to motors on console controllers. Neither of these is FORCE feedback: the distinction is an actual pushback in the controls; this requires greater power and specific programming redirects to get contexts and effects correct which may explain why it has deprecated outside of racing wheels.

No-no, I know about those kinds of haptics and I know about the distinction. There's also buttkicker for example.

My post's second part is about the proper force feedback. What amused me is that such a translation was possible over standard ffb protocols (and without vibration motors) and to such an extent in the late 90s - early 00s.

Today the whole ffb story is in a very degraded state. Outside of niche racing sims it's really bad. Half of the forces simply aren't being used, while others are used for something they were never intended for.

The hardware setup itself is beyond expensive and at the same time not that immersive or impressive - even DD fanatec wheels. And to me it feels like the software is the problem.

And the vibrations themselves (like the engine resonance or road surface) are touted as something that is either unnecessary or impossible with existing protocols and requiring additional solutions in the form of additional hardware (like that of a Logitech Vibration force something or other).

While in the naughties I was able to listen to music on my wheel's motor while playing a ffb game.

It may be more closely related than we realize, considering the Sidewinder Force protocol used the gameport's MIDI connectors for its effects. When things are new and exciting and developers are actually trying the results can be inventive even if they start out as "ugly hacks" (the story of most of id Software's engines). It is still being done today, but has been relegated to expensive niches involving setups that can be considered more hardcore vehicle simulators than accessible gaming systems.

We happen to be crunching on that balance right now in my Civil Air Patrol squadron with how to best convert our unit's gaming laptop into a flight trainer suitable for cadets aspiring to become aviators.

BaronSFel001 wrote on 2025-02-24, 17:48:

If those source commands can be harnessed by a wrapper or emulator, that could preserve force feedback protocols for the retro gaming future.

That's my goal!
To document and preserve this.
Also to emulate and adapt the protocol when possible.
I can already read the inputs of a usb i-force device on a external adapter. Can adapt it to work on modern pc or consoles. Without FFB. FFB would require another translation layer.
But first I need to get my serial device working 😀

Zoomer wrote on 2025-02-24, 18:39:

I've got a similar AVB wheel from these days, only slightly different model - gc-fbw7 mac turboforce and it has a Serial as well as a usb connection dangling off the same cord. So I think, the serial and USB should be compatible.

IIRC, it was even detected as USB-to-Serial interface in the Windows XP's device manager.

Please, test it and report. I would really like to know if it works with the older, i-force 1.0 games.
Also, does it really appear as a usb-to-serial interface on windows? Can you get more info about it? Like it's Vendor and Product ID?

sonik wrote on 2025-02-24, 22:49:

Please, test it and report. I would really like to know if it works with the older, i-force 1.0 games.
Also, does it really appear as a usb-to-serial interface on windows? Can you get more info about it? Like it's Vendor and Product ID?

Sure thing! I'll be around this wheel this weekend so I'll test and document everything. There's almost nothing on it on the Internet.

The brand itself is also weird, as well as the wheel. While being almost no name, it used pretty advanced stuff and is very closely associated with Immersion. For example, there was nothing like it with Logitech Momo Racing and similar. Maybe AVB is some sort of Immersion's offshoot brand?

What's even more interesting is that when x64 came, and the AVB site was long gone, and I desperately wanted to test something ffb before buying another ffb rig, I managed to get the wheel working with some random old-but-still-supported Fanatec wheel drivers. Don't remember which, but it was the whole suite with FFB and everything. It's been almost 20 years since last time I was tinkering with it, but I should still have my notes somewhere 😀

Edit: yeah, it seems I won't visit the place where it's stored for another half a year, got some major events happening, sorry 🙁

Zoomer wrote on 2025-02-25, 08:54:

What's even more interesting is that when x64 came, and the AVB site was long gone, and I desperately wanted to test something ffb before buying another ffb rig, I managed to get the wheel working with some random old-but-still-supported Fanatec wheel drivers. Don't remember which, but it was the whole suite with FFB and everything. It's been almost 20 years since last time I was tinkering with it, but I should still have my notes somewhere 😀

I believe that most drivers are compatible with most devices as they're basically i-force devices with the same processor inside.