It really is absurd statement that 50mhz bus pentium will be just fine for “XT programs”

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-15, 00:11:

By itself, throttling a Pentium by 24% isn't that useful. But it's definitely more useful when combined with cache disabling or other throttling methods to get it to 486 or 386 levels.

That's true, it's always nice to have an extra brake to apply when slowing a PC down. My 450MHz K6-2+ does a fantastic 486 but can't quite do a 386, even with all cahces disabled and the lowest multiplier.

badmojo wrote on 2024-10-15, 07:19:

My 450MHz K6-2+ does a fantastic 486 but can't quite do a 386, even with all cahces disabled and the lowest multiplier.

Interesting. I never owned one of those, just a plain (non-plus) K6-2, so this kinda surprised me.

On that note, a Pentium MMX can stack some of the SetMul test register toggles on top of disabling both caches, for even more slowdown. IIRC, the BPD parameter (Branch Prediction Disable) can be used in this manner, possibly some others too. I rarely needed that level of slowdown, so I didn't experiment a whole lot with it, but I think I could get to 386DX-25 speeds that way.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-10-15, 07:47:

Interesting. I never owned one of those, just a plain (non-plus) K6-2, so this kinda surprised me.

Yes the '+' version is quite a bit faster than the non plus but from what I understand that was just because of the bigger cache, which is out of the equation once disabled I would have thought.

Anyway it's a moot point for me really, I don't need to go lower than 486 DX33 speeds anyway.

Did some experimenting with memory timings this evening. Performance was slightly improved, most noticeably in Quake which gained 1.4 FPS.

As I noted in the OP, I am using a mix of FPM and EDO RAM to deliberately mimic the RAM setup we likely had back in 1997. I imagine going with full EDO RAM would probably yield further performance gains.

If your FPM module has 60ns chips the difference with EDO will be tiny. Older FPM modules with 70ns yes those are slower.

Bruno128 wrote on 2024-10-16, 08:55:

If your FPM module has 60ns chips the difference with EDO will be tiny. Older FPM modules with 70ns yes those are slower.

Hmm, I don't remember what the specs of the modules were when I installed them. I'll have to check when I get around to swapping out the modules.

Been doing a bunch of testing of various games. Most games work, but there are some that are incompatible with the Matrox Millennium.

One game that has issues is Arkanoid: Revenge of Doh (Arkanoid 2). The game fails to display the moving sprites for things like the paddle (ship) and ball.

I double checked this with another system that has a Matrox Mystique and the same issue occurred. I assume this is a general incompatibility with Matrox cards.

I tried searching on Google for this issue, but searching for "Arkanoid" and "Matrox" produces no search results. Surprised this issue hasn't been reported anywhere.

The Matrox Millennium is a great card but yes those random incompatibilities with some older games is a bit of a turn off for me. It also doesn't handle high refresh rates well in my experience, which surprised me.

You probably know this already but there's a patch out there to fix the Matrox / Keen incompatibility - works well.

badmojo wrote on 2024-10-17, 22:30:

It also doesn't handle high refresh rates well in my experience, which surprised me.

What sort of refresh rates? I know the card is spec'd to do up to 1024x768 at 120Hz. Does it have issues at those refresh rates?

I don't know if I've ever gone above 85Hz with one of these cards though.

You probably know this already but there's a patch out there to fix the Matrox / Keen incompatibility - works well.

Yup, I've got that patch. I was hoping there might be something for the Jazz Jackrabbit games, but I haven't found anything yet.

Did some more testing and tweaking of memory settings. I ran into some freezes with Blood, so I changed the DRAM Precharge Wait State and DRAM Wait State back to 1. Read Burst I left at x222/x333 and Write Burst at x222.

After more testing everything seems to be stable so far. Did another round of benchmarks including Duke Nukem 3D and Terminal Velocity this time, for a more comprehensive list of scores.

Benchmark specs: Pentium MMX 166, Gigabyte GA-586ATV motherboard, 24MB RAM (8 MB FPM/16MB EDO), Matrox Millennium (4MB)

Awesome build! Love the case, I used to have that case.

for jazz, it's claimed here the game runs fine on matrox: Matrox 2064W-R3 Millenium 1 Jazz no scrolling problem ?

the catch is that this is with the rare R3 chip, though. i have a 2mb rev. B with the R2 chip, with some older BIOS, and just tested the game - it's very broken on that, has some nasty flickering on switching from menu to ingame as well. i also have another card with the latest 3.0 BIOS but still the older chip, might test that sometime later. i believe the BIOS update fixes the flickering on mode switching, at least in other cases. some more on that: https://smugnplay.com/blog/matrox-millennium- … -dog-new-tricks

it'd be strange if the R3 chip revision really fixed this issue though, because all the later matrox cards are also said to have issues with jazz according to gona's matrix.

auron wrote on 2024-10-22, 06:34:

it'd be strange if the R3 chip revision really fixed this issue though, because all the later matrox cards are also said to have issues with jazz according to gona's matrix.

I agree. I tested it with a Matrox Millennium II and it still had the same issues. Tried a pair of Matrox Millenniums as well (2MB and 4MB) and same issues with both.

Haven't looked at what specific revisions of each chip I have on each card, though.

midicollector wrote on 2024-10-22, 03:06:

Awesome build! Love the case, I used to have that case.

Thank you! I think it was a pretty popular style. I had one in ATX as well.

well, did test my 4mb rev. A card with the 3.0 bios, and jazz is also broken on that. and can also confirm what the author of that article wrote about chris' 3d bench in svga, black screen and lockup. but on the plus side, it seems svga modes aren't as shifted, and that momentary "tearing" effect right before mode changes (on CRTs, anyway) that occurs with the old bios is also gone.

I've had this system setup and have been using it for the past couple of weeks.

Been an interesting trip down memory lane. I've stuck to DOS; haven't set up Win95 yet, but I might in the future.

For DOS games of the era, this system performs reasonably well. I've mostly been playing Doom, Duke 3D, Jagged Alliance, NHL 96 & 97, Whiplash (Fatal Racing), among others.

The only games I've found that struggled are Blood and NHL 96. Blood gets about 20 FPS in 640x480; playable, but not ideal. NHL 96 is fine is low-res mode, but in SVGA mode it runs a bit choppy. Surprisingly, NHL 97 runs much smoother despite having only SVGA and featuring full 3D player models. I suppose EA Sports spent more time optimizing their 3D engine in between releases.

Audio has been the most interesting aspect of this build for me. For the past decade I've been spoiled by General MIDI sound modules, wavetables, and high end sound cards. This is the first time in over 25 years I've used a dedicated Sound Blaster 16 in a system and only used FM synthesis for music. While I don't mind FM synthesis in some games, I definitely miss having proper General MIDI support. Especially for games like Duke Nukem 3D, the FM soundtrack is positively anemic in comparison to the bombastic GM tracks.

My original plan had been to use this system and then upgrade it. However, after realizing I'd likely be replacing everything including the motherboard, that seemed less like a system upgrade and more like a complete re-build. Instead, my next build will be a 1997 fantasy-build; the computer I wish I could have had back in 1997.

For now I am going to keep this build as-is. It will serve as a nice point-of-comparison with other builds I do from that time period.

Yes I think you shouldn't upgrade.
My childhood DX2/66 is still just that. I have faster better 486's but that's not the point when using this rig. It's to relive how things were back in the mid 90's

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-12, 00:39:

my next build will be a 1997 fantasy-build; the computer I wish I could have had back in 1997.

For now I am going to keep this build as-is. It will serve as a nice point-of-comparison with other builds I do from that time period.

This is a great build. Reminds me of my first PC that wasn't completely out of date when I was given it. Pentium 120Mhz (non MMX), S3 Trio64, SB16. Loved that PC. I think the case was the same as yours. Very similar anyway.

As for the dream 1997 PC. I am currently building one also. Pentium II 300Mhz. Klamath Core. Riva 128 GPU with a sneaky 1998 upgrade of a Voodoo 2 on the side. I am a little disappointed with the performance of Unreal. Although in 1998 I originally played Unreal on a far worse system. A K6 processor, I forget the speed. I think I had to play in software mode originally, as I didn't have a Voodoo. I got a Riva TNT later. Definitely this PC is going to be best for games from 1996-1997.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-19, 16:22:

I was hoping there might be something for the Jazz Jackrabbit games, but I haven't found anything yet.

I was just testing my Matrox Millennium II with Jazz Jackrabbit on a Pentium MMX 200.

At normal CPU speed, the game's scrolling is very choppy, which makes it highly unpleasant to play. However, with L1 cache disabled via SetMul, it seems that the scrolling issue no longer occurs. I've seen that reported here, but now I can also confirm it myself. Jazz is fully playable on my system when slowed down like that.