DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-06, 20:31:

I've not really had much luck on some of the forums I've tried when it comes to PC problems, but I have had some very informativ […]
Show full quote

I've not really had much luck on some of the forums I've tried when it comes to PC problems, but I have had some very informative and helpful responses here. 😀

I have a question concerning BIOS programmers. I learnt that they're a thing on Tom's Hardware, but sadly I haven't had any follow-up replies. 😒 I was wondering if anyone here is also familiar with them and if they're often used on retro systems too? I presume they are. And if so, are there any specific brands/models that would be recommended? I did see this one on Amazon, but wasn't sure:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DAOKAI-Programmer-CH … 43843335&sr=8-7

It's something I'd definitely invest in for possible BIOS issues in future. Thanks.

Lately I have published some BIOS, extracted from non-working motherboards, and I have replaced the content in some, reprogramming the BIOS chip, unfortunately 😣 if the BIOS chip is soldered, it cannot be reprogrammed, but I can advise, before buying a programmer, to see what type of BIOS chip is present, on the motherboard to reprogram the BIOS, there are various types, the most common are PLCC32 or DIP32, but there are others that differ in the number of pins, usually lower, however to make a long story short, you may need an adapter, and you have to make sure that the chip is of the right type, despite having the same shape and number of pins, there are differences in pinout, between a chip and another apparently the same.
Ultimately, I suggest you see which chips you want to reprogram, and choose the programmer that supports the most different BIOS chips.

PC@LIVE wrote on 2025-04-06, 21:38:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-06, 20:31:

I've not really had much luck on some of the forums I've tried when it comes to PC problems, but I have had some very informativ […]
Show full quote

I've not really had much luck on some of the forums I've tried when it comes to PC problems, but I have had some very informative and helpful responses here. 😀

I have a question concerning BIOS programmers. I learnt that they're a thing on Tom's Hardware, but sadly I haven't had any follow-up replies. 😒 I was wondering if anyone here is also familiar with them and if they're often used on retro systems too? I presume they are. And if so, are there any specific brands/models that would be recommended? I did see this one on Amazon, but wasn't sure:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DAOKAI-Programmer-CH … 43843335&sr=8-7

It's something I'd definitely invest in for possible BIOS issues in future. Thanks.

Lately I have published some BIOS, extracted from non-working motherboards, and I have replaced the content in some, reprogramming the BIOS chip, unfortunately 😣 if the BIOS chip is soldered, it cannot be reprogrammed, but I can advise, before buying a programmer, to see what type of BIOS chip is present, on the motherboard to reprogram the BIOS, there are various types, the most common are PLCC32 or DIP32, but there are others that differ in the number of pins, usually lower, however to make a long story short, you may need an adapter, and you have to make sure that the chip is of the right type, despite having the same shape and number of pins, there are differences in pinout, between a chip and another apparently the same.
Ultimately, I suggest you see which chips you want to reprogram, and choose the programmer that supports the most different BIOS chips.

Ahh, okay. So there's no one size that fits all then? Ideally, it would be for PCs, such as my main desktop and my retro 98 machine. At the moment though, I'm working with a laptop from 2016. For some reason, it's not turning on. I don't know what I've done, or what's gone wrong, and I'm wondering if it's one of two possibilities. That I've either a: knackered the motherboard due to opening it up with it being plugged in, or b: the BIOS has become corrupted. I've tried the usual - replacing the CMOS battery, trying to turn it on with the battery removed, letting the battery charge for a bit, holding down the power button etc.

I *think* I've found the BIOS on the motherboard. I'll need to upload a photo though.

Okay, looks like I'm not 100% sure where it is. ^^; But I'm guessing it's here...?

I do not see one. Many of the newer ones are 8 pin (SOIC8) serial eeproms like Winbond 25Q64FVSIG. Yes you need an adapter + serial clamp to program them onboard, that one does have both.
Sample picture from a 2015 HP, the chip near the jumpers...

Horun wrote on 2025-04-06, 23:42:

I do not see one. Many of the newer ones are 8 pin (SOIC8) serial eeproms like Winbond 25Q64FVSIG. Yes you need an adapter + serial clamp to program them onboard, that one does have both.
Sample picture from a 2015 HP, the chip near the jumpers...

Damn. They don’t seem to make it very obvious, do they? 😅 There’s a few that look similar and I don’t appear to have any jumpers on mine. At least not what I can see. I’m guessing it’s one of these…

And this is the entire board:

I believe this board is a Clevo W650RC…?

Based on this tech manual for the WR670RCW, a similar board, I would venture a guess the BIOS on your board is one of the two chips in red.

PDF: https://www.e-weekly.co.uk/download/rnd/drive … w670rcw/esm.pdf

If you look at the system block diagram you can see it's directly connected to the PCH. If you go down a bit further to the schematics, you can see the BIOS is under PCH 1/9 and see where it's connected to the PCH through some resistors. With that you can get a better idea what chip it is. If you can't identify the chip itself by Googling the numbers on it (that's always my first step when I'm unsure), you can use that schematic to narrow it down. I would guess it's the chip in the larger red box.

This is all based on your photo, so take it with a grain of salt, but that's how I would go about tracking the chip down.

It looks like yours is an SOIC8 (very common) and clips for them are cheap, so you should be able to use any appropriate programmer, and an adapter, to attach the clip to the chip and reprogram.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-06, 22:00:

PC@LIVE wrote on 2025-04-06, 21:38:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-06, 20:31:

I've not really had much luck on some of the forums I've tried when it comes to PC problems, but I have had some very informativ […]
Show full quote

I've not really had much luck on some of the forums I've tried when it comes to PC problems, but I have had some very informative and helpful responses here. 😀

I have a question concerning BIOS programmers. I learnt that they're a thing on Tom's Hardware, but sadly I haven't had any follow-up replies. 😒 I was wondering if anyone here is also familiar with them and if they're often used on retro systems too? I presume they are. And if so, are there any specific brands/models that would be recommended? I did see this one on Amazon, but wasn't sure:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DAOKAI-Programmer-CH … 43843335&sr=8-7

It's something I'd definitely invest in for possible BIOS issues in future. Thanks.

Lately I have published some BIOS, extracted from non-working motherboards, and I have replaced the content in some, reprogramming the BIOS chip, unfortunately 😣 if the BIOS chip is soldered, it cannot be reprogrammed, but I can advise, before buying a programmer, to see what type of BIOS chip is present, on the motherboard to reprogram the BIOS, there are various types, the most common are PLCC32 or DIP32, but there are others that differ in the number of pins, usually lower, however to make a long story short, you may need an adapter, and you have to make sure that the chip is of the right type, despite having the same shape and number of pins, there are differences in pinout, between a chip and another apparently the same.
Ultimately, I suggest you see which chips you want to reprogram, and choose the programmer that supports the most different BIOS chips.

Ahh, okay. So there's no one size that fits all then? Ideally, it would be for PCs, such as my main desktop and my retro 98 machine. At the moment though, I'm working with a laptop from 2016. For some reason, it's not turning on. I don't know what I've done, or what's gone wrong, and I'm wondering if it's one of two possibilities. That I've either a: knackered the motherboard due to opening it up with it being plugged in, or b: the BIOS has become corrupted. I've tried the usual - replacing the CMOS battery, trying to turn it on with the battery removed, letting the battery charge for a bit, holding down the power button etc.

I *think* I've found the BIOS on the motherboard. I'll need to upload a photo though.

There is, but it will be far more expensive than one of those CH341A based serial EEPROM programmers. My recommendation if you want to be ready for almost any programmable IC would be one of the larger XGecu T48 programmer + adapters kits. The difference between the kits is the number/types of adapters, the programmer itself is the same.

The most important adapters for PC use is the PLCC32 one, the SOIC8 board, and the SOIC8 clamp. DIP chips go in the programmer directly without any adapters. Basically all EEPROMs found in old PC:s are 27, 28 or 29 series parallel (E)EPROMs in either DIP28, DIP32 or PLCC32 packages. Newer PC:s almost exclusively use 25 series serial EEPROMs in DIP8 or SOIC8 packages, like the mobo in your pics.

If you just want to dump the BIOS from your particular mobo, a CH341A programmer like the one you linked earlier is enough, assumed of course that BIOS resides in a 25 series EEPROM or some other compatible IC on your board.

Note that those cheap SOIC8 clamps can be quite unreliable. You will probably have to mod it slightly to make good contact. Sometimes it's not even possible to work with the EEPROM in circuit due to how its peripheral circuitry is designed, desoldering it might be the only option. It's not that complicated though, with Chipquik or similar Galinstan product it can easily be done with a regular soldering iron and solder wick. This is also where the SOIC8 board adapter comes in.

Please upload a photo where the markings on the SOIC8 chips are clearly visible, it will help us differentiate the BIOS chip from other EEPROMs if present. Usually other stuff like EC firmware etc is stored on very similar separate chips.

One more thing. Software wise, things aren't as straight forward as they used to be anymore. Back in the day you just downloaded a BIOS image and flashed it as is, the EEPROM content was identical between different computers of the same model. Nowadays you might have to prepare the image by injecting serial numbers, flash a matching version of Intel ME, and so on, first. Settings might also be stored on flash in varstores, as opposed to separate SRAM or similar. It can be quite complicated and require a fair bit of manufacturer specific knowledge to do those preparations.

StriderTR wrote on 2025-04-07, 06:43:

Based on this tech manual for the WR670RCW, a similar board, I would venture a guess the BIOS on your board is one of the two ch […]
Show full quote

Based on this tech manual for the WR670RCW, a similar board, I would venture a guess the BIOS on your board is one of the two chips in red.

PDF: https://www.e-weekly.co.uk/download/rnd/drive … w670rcw/esm.pdf

If you look at the system block diagram you can see it's directly connected to the PCH. If you go down a bit further to the schematics, you can see the BIOS is under PCH 1/9 and see where it's connected to the PCH through some resistors. With that you can get a better idea what chip it is. If you can't identify the chip itself by Googling the numbers on it (that's always my first step when I'm unsure), you can use that schematic to narrow it down. I would guess it's the chip in the larger red box.

This is all based on your photo, so take it with a grain of salt, but that's how I would go about tracking the chip down.

It looks like yours is an SOIC8 (very common) and clips for them are cheap, so you should be able to use any appropriate programmer, and an adapter, to attach the clip to the chip and reprogram.

Thanks for the info/guidance. I reckon you're right on which one it is, but I'm still trying to figure out what the chip is as the writing is too small to make out. I don't have a decent magnifying glass either. 😒

kaputnik wrote on 2025-04-07, 08:06:

There is, but it will be far more expensive than one of those CH341A based serial EEPROM programmers. My recommendation if you w […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-06, 22:00:

PC@LIVE wrote on 2025-04-06, 21:38:

Lately I have published some BIOS, extracted from non-working motherboards, and I have replaced the content in some, reprogramming the BIOS chip, unfortunately 😣 if the BIOS chip is soldered, it cannot be reprogrammed, but I can advise, before buying a programmer, to see what type of BIOS chip is present, on the motherboard to reprogram the BIOS, there are various types, the most common are PLCC32 or DIP32, but there are others that differ in the number of pins, usually lower, however to make a long story short, you may need an adapter, and you have to make sure that the chip is of the right type, despite having the same shape and number of pins, there are differences in pinout, between a chip and another apparently the same.
Ultimately, I suggest you see which chips you want to reprogram, and choose the programmer that supports the most different BIOS chips.

Ahh, okay. So there's no one size that fits all then? Ideally, it would be for PCs, such as my main desktop and my retro 98 machine. At the moment though, I'm working with a laptop from 2016. For some reason, it's not turning on. I don't know what I've done, or what's gone wrong, and I'm wondering if it's one of two possibilities. That I've either a: knackered the motherboard due to opening it up with it being plugged in, or b: the BIOS has become corrupted. I've tried the usual - replacing the CMOS battery, trying to turn it on with the battery removed, letting the battery charge for a bit, holding down the power button etc.

I *think* I've found the BIOS on the motherboard. I'll need to upload a photo though.

There is, but it will be far more expensive than one of those CH341A based serial EEPROM programmers. My recommendation if you want to be ready for almost any programmable IC would be one of the larger XGecu T48 programmer + adapters kits. The difference between the kits is the number/types of adapters, the programmer itself is the same.

The most important adapters for PC use is the PLCC32 one, the SOIC8 board, and the SOIC8 clamp. DIP chips go in the programmer directly without any adapters. Basically all EEPROMs found in old PC:s are 27, 28 or 29 series parallel (E)EPROMs in either DIP28, DIP32 or PLCC32 packages. Newer PC:s almost exclusively use 25 series serial EEPROMs in DIP8 or SOIC8 packages, like the mobo in your pics.

If you just want to dump the BIOS from your particular mobo, a CH341A programmer like the one you linked earlier is enough, assumed of course that BIOS resides in a 25 series EEPROM or some other compatible IC on your board.

Note that those cheap SOIC8 clamps can be quite unreliable. You will probably have to mod it slightly to make good contact. Sometimes it's not even possible to work with the EEPROM in circuit due to how its peripheral circuitry is designed, desoldering it might be the only option. It's not that complicated though, with Chipquik or similar Galinstan product it can easily be done with a regular soldering iron and solder wick. This is also where the SOIC8 board adapter comes in.

Please upload a photo where the markings on the SOIC8 chips are clearly visible, it will help us differentiate the BIOS chip from other EEPROMs if present. Usually other stuff like EC firmware etc is stored on very similar separate chips.

One more thing. Software wise, things aren't as straight forward as they used to be anymore. Back in the day you just downloaded a BIOS image and flashed it as is, the EEPROM content was identical between different computers of the same model. Nowadays you might have to prepare the image by injecting serial numbers, flash a matching version of Intel ME, and so on, first. Settings might also be stored on flash in varstores, as opposed to separate SRAM or similar. It can be quite complicated and require a fair bit of manufacturer specific knowledge to do those preparations.

Whew. ^^;

That's a lot to digest and look into. I'm still trying to find out exactly which chip it is and the exact BIOS. But thanks for the recommendation on what kit to go for. I'll add that to my wishlist, though I may have to go for something basic in the meantime. Just until I've got to grips with it all. I still don't even know if the BIOS has become corrupted with this laptop. It could be the mobo itself. In which case I'll need some sort of tool for that to check it's still alive.

There's every possibility I'll be back and asking for further info regarding re-programming the BIOS.

StriderTR wrote on 2025-04-07, 06:43:

Based on this tech manual for the WR670RCW, a similar board, I would venture a guess the BIOS on your board is one of the two ch […]
Show full quote

Based on this tech manual for the WR670RCW, a similar board, I would venture a guess the BIOS on your board is one of the two chips in red.

PDF: https://www.e-weekly.co.uk/download/rnd/drive … w670rcw/esm.pdf

If you look at the system block diagram you can see it's directly connected to the PCH. If you go down a bit further to the schematics, you can see the BIOS is under PCH 1/9 and see where it's connected to the PCH through some resistors. With that you can get a better idea what chip it is. If you can't identify the chip itself by Googling the numbers on it (that's always my first step when I'm unsure), you can use that schematic to narrow it down. I would guess it's the chip in the larger red box.

This is all based on your photo, so take it with a grain of salt, but that's how I would go about tracking the chip down.

It looks like yours is an SOIC8 (very common) and clips for them are cheap, so you should be able to use any appropriate programmer, and an adapter, to attach the clip to the chip and reprogram.

Managed to find a better magnifying glass, but it still proves very difficult to see and make out what's what. But I think it says Winbond 250 (but it could be Q) 65F V5 (but it could be S)10 (but it could be Q) 1646. The smaller chip is even more difficult to make out.

EDIT: Also, the back of the mobo says 6-71-W65R0-DO2

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-07, 12:12:

Thanks for the info/guidance. I reckon you're right on which one it is, but I'm still trying to figure out what the chip is as the writing is too small to make out. I don't have a decent magnifying glass either. 😒

Not sure if you've tried this or not, but, just in case.

Have you tried taking a flashlight and shining light on the chip at an angle? That can often make the markings pop out and vastly easier to read. It doesn't always work, but I've found it works more often than not.

Another method I've used many times in the past with good results is using good old fashioned white chalk. It's a trick my dad showed me many years ago. Clean the chip with IPA, 70% is fine, using a cotton swab. Once the IPA evaporates away, run the chip with a stick of white chalk, then gently brush away the excess. The chalk will often stick to the print, making it much easier to read. I will mention that this trick works great on older ICs (DIP style), but I haven't used it much on newer ICs. The few times I have used it, it worked every time.

StriderTR wrote on 2025-04-07, 17:00:

Not sure if you've tried this or not, but, just in case. […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-07, 12:12:

Thanks for the info/guidance. I reckon you're right on which one it is, but I'm still trying to figure out what the chip is as the writing is too small to make out. I don't have a decent magnifying glass either. 😒

Not sure if you've tried this or not, but, just in case.

Have you tried taking a flashlight and shining light on the chip at an angle? That can often make the markings pop out and vastly easier to read. It doesn't always work, but I've found it works more often than not.

Another method I've used many times in the past with good results is using good old fashioned white chalk. It's a trick my dad showed me many years ago. Clean the chip with IPA, 70% is fine, using a cotton swab. Once the IPA evaporates away, run the chip with a stick of white chalk, then gently brush away the excess. The chalk will often stick to the print, making it much easier to read. I will mention that this trick works great on older ICs (DIP style), but I haven't used it much on newer ICs. The few times I have used it, it worked every time.

Yeah, I've been trying to use my phone's torch and angling it. It is tricky trying to find the best angle.

Your other method though - that's a very handy hack! Thanks for sharing. I have 99% IPA. I just need to find a stick of chalk. ^^; Actually, I think I have some amongst my art supplies that I used in university. When I was doing charcoal sketches.

StriderTR wrote on 2025-04-07, 17:00:

Not sure if you've tried this or not, but, just in case. […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-04-07, 12:12:

Thanks for the info/guidance. I reckon you're right on which one it is, but I'm still trying to figure out what the chip is as the writing is too small to make out. I don't have a decent magnifying glass either. 😒

Not sure if you've tried this or not, but, just in case.

Have you tried taking a flashlight and shining light on the chip at an angle? That can often make the markings pop out and vastly easier to read. It doesn't always work, but I've found it works more often than not.

Another method I've used many times in the past with good results is using good old fashioned white chalk. It's a trick my dad showed me many years ago. Clean the chip with IPA, 70% is fine, using a cotton swab. Once the IPA evaporates away, run the chip with a stick of white chalk, then gently brush away the excess. The chalk will often stick to the print, making it much easier to read. I will mention that this trick works great on older ICs (DIP style), but I haven't used it much on newer ICs. The few times I have used it, it worked every time.

Just tried it and it works brilliantly! 😁 It says winbond 25Q64F VSIQ 1546

The other chip says P2808 80 U-F00PW 0A 150906.

kaputnik wrote on 2025-04-07, 08:06:

There is, but it will be far more expensive than one of those CH341A based serial EEPROM programmers. My recommendation if you want to be ready for almost any programmable IC would be one of the larger XGecu T48 programmer + adapters kits. The difference between the kits is the number/types of adapters, the programmer itself is the same.

I can support this. I have this programmer too and it worked great so far. Can even test SRAMs.
List with supported chips: http://www.xgecu.com/minipro/t48_list.txt
Only "flaw": choosing the right adapter (package) is a rabbit hole on its own...

Before I go down the rabbit hole of using a BIOS programmer, I'm going to check if the motherboard is screwed. I have my suspicions it could be. I completely disassembled the laptop, had some issues with the godawfully designed ribbons/connectors (super fiddly) along with the screen hinges, but I've put it back together. I'll probably just need to replace the ribbon for the trackpad, but I can live without that for the moment. I've ordered myself a multimeter, so once I've got to grips with that, I'll test to see if the motherboard is screwed or possibly the power pack/charger.

Okay, I have my first multimeter. Problem now - I don't even know where to begin. ^^; The schematics are over my head.

Okay, I've managed to watch a few videos and tried to get my head around the various settings and meanings. I got a reading from the power connector, so that's not an issue. I only got a bit of a reading from the battery connectors, so I'm not 100% on that. And I'm not able to get a reading from the battery itself as the prongs are too thick to reach. I was able to connect the power cable into the laptop and then test the power connector to the motherboard and that got a reading, so power seems to be getting through. Plus, the orange light comes on when it's plugged in.

How am I able to use a multimeter to test a laptop battery when the gaps are too thin for the prongs? 😒

I suspect the motherboard is fine - the power cable and the connector to the mobo are reading fine at least. So it's either the battery that's no longer charging... but then surely just plugging it into the mains, it would still work...? Or it is the BIOS after all...? >_<