OK and what about Microsoft Windows 12 instead? Weren't W12 supposed to be released this year in fall?

A bit early for that. And Steam OS probably forced Microsoft to reconsider some things for Windows 12.

On that note, apparently recent Steam Beta release has Proton enabled by default. This shows a lot of confidence in Proton compatibility.

It's crazy when you compare the services running in NT4, 2k or XP vs 'modern' windows.

Functionally, I don't see much difference.
All the crap that works now used to work then too.

I think such statements are meaningless unless you pinpoint the purpose of each service. I remember breaking night light once by disabling a service I shouldn't.

Alrighty, since I have a Win10 laptop, I've been following this story with Win10 support ending. So I just read this blog entry, which is basically doing its best to urge you to migrate to the AI-infested terra incognita that is Win11, but here's what looks like the important part:

• Microsoft 365 Appsi running on personal and commercial Windows 10 PCs will continue receiving security updates until Oct. 10, 2028, and feature updates through August 2026.ii These updates are intended to help ease customers’ transition to Windows 11 and will be delivered through standard update channels. These updates do not include technical support.
• Microsoft will continue to provide Security Intelligence Updates for Microsoft Defender Antivirus on Windows 10 through October 2028.

So looks like it's exactly how it was with Win8.1, I continued to use it well into 2022 (on a laptop bought in 2013 with pre-installed Win8) until I replaced it with a Linux distro. I never missed those "update Tuesdays" or whatever it's called when your PC suddenly starts heating up while it downloads another whoopload of patches you never requested.

The only difference is that I had no doubts about switching to Win10, while Win11 looks very shifty so far. Oh well, back in the mid-2010s Win10 also looked scary, and there are always Linux options out there too.

if you have the time to deal with the bullshit that happens in Linux, you have the time to fix and disable all the bullshit in 11. Is as simple as that.

No, the bullshit in Windows 11 cannot be disabled (at least not permanently). There's always some minimum level of spyware, random programs will install without your permission, and it constantly forgets file type associations. Even if the option is presented to you, some random Windows update will enable everything again. Maybe you can get rid of it if you go to extremes like Tiny11, but every time I try someone's tweaked Windows, I find that software I use regularly doesn't work because it depends on a Windows service that was removed to free up 1MB of RAM.

Linux really does suck, but I think it's mostly because it isn't a mainstream OS. It's for nerds, not regular people. For regular people, even Mac OS has less bullshit than Windows at this point. I don't have the programming skill to make Linux work, but I'm stubborn enough to not use Windows as my main OS. At least Linux hasn't forgotten how to open .jpg files and suggested that I open them in a PDF viewer.

lti wrote on 2025-07-04, 19:58:

No, the bullshit in Windows 11 cannot be disabled (at least not permanently). There's always some minimum level of spyware, random programs will install without your permission, and it constantly forgets file type associations. Even if the option is presented to you, some random Windows update will enable everything again. Maybe you can get rid of it if you go to extremes like Tiny11, but every time I try someone's tweaked Windows, I find that software I use regularly doesn't work because it depends on a Windows service that was removed to free up 1MB of RAM.

It's exactly the same in Win10, though.

I find it funny that 10 years ago folks complained about Win10 being a mess, spyware, piece of useless bloat, etc, and were going to stay with 7 or 8.1. Now suddenly Win10 is "OK", but Win11 is the problem.
I don't know if it's the same people who have simply forgotten or got used to 10 (hard not to get used seeing how it is pushed everywhere), or new ones.

Either way, when the next Windows comes out, the process will repeat again, except more people will be on Win11, and the "mass exodus" to Linux will still be "just around the corner".

dr_st wrote on 2025-07-04, 20:07:

It's exactly the same in Win10, though. […]
Show full quote

lti wrote on 2025-07-04, 19:58:

No, the bullshit in Windows 11 cannot be disabled (at least not permanently). There's always some minimum level of spyware, random programs will install without your permission, and it constantly forgets file type associations. Even if the option is presented to you, some random Windows update will enable everything again. Maybe you can get rid of it if you go to extremes like Tiny11, but every time I try someone's tweaked Windows, I find that software I use regularly doesn't work because it depends on a Windows service that was removed to free up 1MB of RAM.

It's exactly the same in Win10, though.

I find it funny that 10 years ago folks complained about Win10 being a mess, spyware, piece of useless bloat, etc, and were going to stay with 7 or 8.1. Now suddenly Win10 is "OK", but Win11 is the problem.
I don't know if it's the same people who have simply forgotten or got used to 10 (hard not to get used seeing how it is pushed everywhere), or new ones.

Either way, when the next Windows comes out, the process will repeat again, except more people will be on Win11, and the "mass exodus" to Linux will still be "just around the corner".

I have been using Win-10 on my HP Xeon Workstations since its Release. At first it would Crash allot. But Now it is Pretty Stable after all the Updates.

My Computer Specs:
HP z440
Xeon e5-2697a ( 16-cores, 32-threads )
64gb Ecc RAM
104 Terabytes ( Hard drives 8x10tb )
Sata SSD's
Pcie Nvme ssd's
Sata Blu-Ray burner
Pcie 10 gigabit Networking Pcie
PCI Sound card Creative Audigy 2zs
PCie HBA Sata ontroller LSI-9300 8 drives
PCie Sata Controller 8 Drives
USB Drives, Printers, Camera
USB Creative DAC Gc7
New HP OfficeJet Pro Laser with Scanner and Fax
USB Toslink Optical
7.1 Virtual Surround Sound
THX, Dolby Digital, DTS.
AMD 7900xt
etc...

Everything Works Great
I have NOT had a System Crash in Years.
I will Miss Win-10

My computer is only using drivers provided by Microsoft Store and Update.
Except for the Old "Audigy 2zs" witch is using "Audigy RX" win-10 drivers

I bought this computer refurbished from ebay for about $120 years ago.
Put about $200 into it not including the Drives.
The Drives are the most expensive part of my computers.
But they work Great with Win-10
Bios Internet Network Upgrade to TPM 2.0 works too.

Win-10 Reports NO Problems and computer is Super Reliable, Dependable and Stable.
These HP z440's are Best computers I have ever owned for the Refurbished Price of $120

I don't know Why they want to Unsupport these computers when they run so well.

dr_st wrote on 2025-07-04, 20:07:

It's exactly the same in Win10, though.

Yes, 11 is just 10 with a broken GUI and a huge push to have a Microsoft account. None of the bullshit parts got any worse. The stuff I listed in that post is actually stuff that happened to me in Windows 10.

Win10 was the first for me when in the end, my mind was more at peace, though needed more tweaking than the older versions. On Linux, I'm bothered by everything from font rendering to the way the mouse feels, not to mention my preferred software either isn't ported or if it is, doesn't work on Linux as I'd expect it to. I just can't stand it, don't like package management, don't like poor drivers... Sometimes I use tools on Linux, mostly things related to partitioning and making partition images...and GRUB for multi-boot menu. But mostly, I prefer Linux out of sight, out of mind.

Win11...well I got last non-SSE 4.2 demanding build working on my PC. Nothing special, still runs Windows programs, but regressions are really getting out of hand now.

lti wrote on 2025-07-04, 19:58:

Maybe you can get rid of it if you go to extremes like Tiny11, but every time I try someone's tweaked Windows, I find that software I use regularly doesn't work because it depends on a Windows service that was removed to free up 1MB of RAM.

Tiny11 and the like aren't even good at debloating, the trick is to master the tools like NTLite on your own. But I think it's pointless, my games won't run (considerably) better if I get Windows down to 0,5 GB of RAM.

Win-11 will use up about 1gb more of RAM for doing nothing but idle.

Apple CEO Tim Cook said “what good is RAM if you are not using it”.
Thats the way I see it too.
If you have more than 8gb of RAM I would not worry about upgrading to Win-11.

Funny because I tested MacOS and Win-10 on the same 2012 MacBook Pro Dual boot. With 16gb of ram, 500gb Sata SSD’s and Intel i5 Ivy bridge dual core CPU.
Win-10 was about 15% to 2o% faster on the Macbook than Apple MacOS.
And Win-10 used less RAM and the SSD Speed was better too.
I mean allot better like 15% to 20%.
How can that be it’s the same computer ?
I just run dual boot boot camp with some drivers even provided by Apple.
I posted these MacOS vs. Win-10 benchmark results on Apple community support forum and Apple had no answers
I don’t think they like people to compare Apple vs Microsoft.

So Win-10 runs better on the Mac than Apple MacOS.
And Win-10 runs faster on PC than Win-11.

In Conclusion.

What you loose with Win-11.
1) Old Hardware driver compatibly
2) about 1gb of RAM at Idle.
3) Performance speed
4) New Motherboards with no PCI slots, FireWire, Serial ports, Parallel ports

There’s is going to be allot of e-waste.

Benefits of Win-11
1) Supported OS with Security updates
2) Better security, More Secure computer.
3) New Simple user interface.

Maybe Win-10 was just to good ?

Living wrote on 2025-07-04, 10:24:

if you have the time to deal with the bullshit that happens in Linux, you have the time to fix and disable all the bullshit in 11. Is as simple as that.

Yeah, I've heard of third-party tools to make custom Win11 install without the BS like Copilot or Recall, but why bother? I'm not bent on running high-end modern games, and everything else appears to be workable from non-Windows environments in some form or another.

It seems like a waste of effort, and highly annoying, to circumvent features that the developer wants to force-feed on you. M$ acts like they know better than the user what the user needs, and basically leave you with no options (or hide them so well that you'll have to know exactly where they are to find them). Even if there is a way to "cheat" around this, it just feels wrong. Using an OS on a personal computer should not play out like you're constantly trying to outwit an authoritarian antagonistic entity, I'd like a little bit of unsupervised freedom in how I customize my PC please.

I'm not saying that Linux is a panacea or that it is not without issues, but for now it at least appears to be a less authoritarian, "we know better than you do, and no discussions" kind of attitude.

MrFlibble wrote on Yesterday, 12:10:

I'm not saying that Linux is a panacea or that it is not without issues, but for now it at least appears to be a less authoritarian, "we know better than you do, and no discussions" kind of attitude.

that part comes when you want help online and find the toxic community that Linux is built around

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2025-07-04, 23:37:

What you loose with Win-11.
1) Old Hardware driver compatibly

How old? This is my oldest driver:

But this one of similar age might be more crucial:

Presumably, age isn't the only factor.

Living wrote on Yesterday, 12:39:

that part comes when you want help online and find the toxic community that Linux is built around

I'm sorry to hear that you have had negative experiences with that.

Living wrote on Yesterday, 12:39:

MrFlibble wrote on Yesterday, 12:10:

I'm not saying that Linux is a panacea or that it is not without issues, but for now it at least appears to be a less authoritarian, "we know better than you do, and no discussions" kind of attitude.

that part comes when you want help online and find the toxic community that Linux is built around

Linux is not built around toxic online communities. The key to what you are saying is toxic online communities. It's toxic because it's online because there are cowards that wouldn't act this way otherwise because they get away with it online. Just find other people, preferably a friend you know that uses linux and it won't be toxic, and he'll show you things. Then you'll find that linux is just another OS when you remove yourself from toxic communities, getting away from the net a little. I know dozens of people that use linux, everyday, main OS, work, games, etc. They just use it, and just works. And nobody talks about toxic people online and then make the conclusion that linux is toxic.

the3dfxdude wrote on Yesterday, 16:59:

Living wrote on Yesterday, 12:39:

MrFlibble wrote on Yesterday, 12:10:

I'm not saying that Linux is a panacea or that it is not without issues, but for now it at least appears to be a less authoritarian, "we know better than you do, and no discussions" kind of attitude.

that part comes when you want help online and find the toxic community that Linux is built around

Linux is not built around toxic online communities. The key to what you are saying is toxic online communities. It's toxic because it's online because there are cowards that wouldn't act this way otherwise because they get away with it online. Just find other people, preferably a friend you know that uses linux and it won't be toxic, and he'll show you things. Then you'll find that linux is just another OS when you remove yourself from toxic communities, getting away from the net a little. I know dozens of people that use linux, everyday, main OS, work, games, etc. They just use it, and just works. And nobody talks about toxic people online and then make the conclusion that linux is toxic.

You know, with the complete collapse of several communities I used to be a part of, I think I'm coming around to the idea that communities need a certain level of "toxicity" to maintain any sort of identity at all. And yeah, it's obnoxious when you ask a stupid question and some Linux nerd berates you for not knowing the shell script to fix it off the top of your head. But then again, that same community erupts in "toxicity" when Linux distros attempt to add telemetry, or drop 32-bit support, or other BS a meeker community might roll over and take in the name of not being "toxic".

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2025-07-04, 23:37:

Apple CEO Tim Cook said “what good is RAM if you are not using it”.

It's funny to hear that from the company that still puts 8GB of RAM in a lot of their computers (and claims that it's just as good as 16GB of RAM on Windows). I keep hearing about Apple Silicon Macs having high SSD failure rates from virtual memory usage.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2025-07-04, 23:37:

There’s is going to be allot of e-waste.

I won't argue with that.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2025-07-04, 23:37:

2) Better security, More Secure computer.

It's not more secure (unless you compare to an older OS that isn't getting security updates). Instead, it's less private and gives more risk of getting locked out of access to your files based on a false positive result in a scan for objectionable content on OneDrive.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2025-07-04, 23:37:

3) New Simple user interface.

The user interface is not simple. It's a total disaster and makes Windows 11 significantly harder to use.

Of course, none of this matters because modern society goes out of their way to endorse and recommend the worst possible option. Those of us who want some privacy and freedom (or a washing machine that doesn't throw itself across the room every time it tries to spin like Photonicinduction threw a rock in it while everyone complains about control board failures) are an extremely small minority, and there's always someone saying that we're overreacting until our predictions come true.