VOGONS


First post, by uniQ

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A few days ago, I built a 386 PC, and during testing I noticed that some games consistently crash or fail to start altogether.
For example, Raptor freezes during the intro at different points each time.
Doom doesn’t start at all - it just locks up the system with a black screen.

Here’s what I’ve already tested:
- Changing mainboard cache timings (fast/slow) – no effect
- Adjusting RAM timings – no effect
- Ran Memtest86 – no errors
- Tried different hard drives
- Tested different CPUs (i386DX-33 and Am386DXL-40)
- Swapped out RAM modules
- Reinstalled DOS
- Tried a different I/O controller card
- Tried a different ISA graphics card
- Removed all ISA cards except for the I/O controller and graphics card

None of these tests made any difference.

However, if I completely disable the cache or use the Turbo button to slow down the CPU, Raptor runs perfectly fine.
It’s driving me crazy, and I’m running out of ideas.
Could it be the motherboard?

Hardware:
- ASUS ISA-386U3
- AMD Am386DXL-40
- 8MB SIMM
- Trident TVGA 8900D-R
- Sound Blaster 2.0

Am386DX-40+FasMath, TVGA8900D-R, SB2.0
i486DX4-100, CL-GD5428VLB, PicoGUS+WP32McCake
MMX 233, S3 ViRGE/DX, Voodoo, SB16+Dreamblaster
K6-III+ 570, GeForce 2 Ti, V2 SLI, SB16+Dreamblaster
P2-450, V3, SBLive
P3-S 1,4 Tualatin, GF6600GT, SB Audigy 2ZS

Reply 1 of 9, by Nexxen

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uniQ wrote on Today, 10:01:

However, if I completely disable the cache or use the Turbo button to slow down the CPU, Raptor runs perfectly fine.

Clean the legs and deoxit the sockets.

Do you have spare cache chips?
Looks like one is failing. You could also try less cache (IDK if you have 128 or less) and see what works to pinpoint the culprit.
---

PC#1 Pentium 233 MMX - 98SE
PC#2 PIII-1Ghz - 98SE/W2K

"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios

Reply 2 of 9, by uniQ

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Faulty cache chips alone won't explain why it's working if I just reduce the CPU clock or am I missing something?

Not sure if I have spare cache chips lying around, but I'll check.

Am386DX-40+FasMath, TVGA8900D-R, SB2.0
i486DX4-100, CL-GD5428VLB, PicoGUS+WP32McCake
MMX 233, S3 ViRGE/DX, Voodoo, SB16+Dreamblaster
K6-III+ 570, GeForce 2 Ti, V2 SLI, SB16+Dreamblaster
P2-450, V3, SBLive
P3-S 1,4 Tualatin, GF6600GT, SB Audigy 2ZS

Reply 4 of 9, by uniQ

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Anonymous Coward wrote on Today, 11:56:

Did you disable the cache?
Did you check the 12v and 5V rails?

I did and it fixes the problem but so does reducing the CPU clock.
I can't check the rails, since I'm lacking the tools to do it. But the PSU works perfectly fine with other 386/486 boards, so I guess it's fine.
Another game I've just tested is Halloween Harry:

Turbo ON & 256K L2 Cache ON = Crashes instantly

Turbo ON & 256K L2 Cache OFF = Works, but too slow to enjoy
Turbo OFF & 256K L2 Cache ON = Works, but too slow to enjoy

Doom doesn’t start at all, no matter what settings I use. It just black-screens.

Am386DX-40+FasMath, TVGA8900D-R, SB2.0
i486DX4-100, CL-GD5428VLB, PicoGUS+WP32McCake
MMX 233, S3 ViRGE/DX, Voodoo, SB16+Dreamblaster
K6-III+ 570, GeForce 2 Ti, V2 SLI, SB16+Dreamblaster
P2-450, V3, SBLive
P3-S 1,4 Tualatin, GF6600GT, SB Audigy 2ZS

Reply 5 of 9, by Nexxen

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Could you try a vanilla DOS install?
Maybe a mistake in drivers for memory management?

Can you check the frequencies with an oscilloscope? A wrong frequency can have adverse effects. All crystals should be spot on.
OSC1, OSC2, Y1 ---> 80MHz, 14,318... MHz, 32KHz.
The 32KHz should be connected to U1 chip (guessing). When you enter bios, does it count time faster or slower compared to a watch?

Also ISA B20 pin (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/common … SA_Bus_pins.svg)

Are you sure the BIOS is ok? Could be some bit rot happening. Try a reflash.

-- these are just ideas.

Btw, could you post pics?
How many cache chips do you have in what config? Is tag ram the right size?

PC#1 Pentium 233 MMX - 98SE
PC#2 PIII-1Ghz - 98SE/W2K

"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios

Reply 6 of 9, by uniQ

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I already tried a vanilla DOS install without any altering what so ever but the problem persisted.
I can reflash the BIOS an recheck. I'll also capture some video footage or picture if it helps.

Am386DX-40+FasMath, TVGA8900D-R, SB2.0
i486DX4-100, CL-GD5428VLB, PicoGUS+WP32McCake
MMX 233, S3 ViRGE/DX, Voodoo, SB16+Dreamblaster
K6-III+ 570, GeForce 2 Ti, V2 SLI, SB16+Dreamblaster
P2-450, V3, SBLive
P3-S 1,4 Tualatin, GF6600GT, SB Audigy 2ZS

Reply 7 of 9, by uniQ

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Nexxen wrote on 51 minutes ago:
Could you try a vanilla DOS install? Maybe a mistake in drivers for memory management? […]
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Could you try a vanilla DOS install?
Maybe a mistake in drivers for memory management?

Can you check the frequencies with an oscilloscope? A wrong frequency can have adverse effects. All crystals should be spot on.
OSC1, OSC2, Y1 ---> 80MHz, 14,318... MHz, 32KHz.
The 32KHz should be connected to U1 chip (guessing). When you enter bios, does it count time faster or slower compared to a watch?

Also ISA B20 pin (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/common … SA_Bus_pins.svg)

Are you sure the BIOS is ok? Could be some bit rot happening. Try a reflash.

-- these are just ideas.

Btw, could you post pics?
How many cache chips do you have in what config? Is tag ram the right size?

I don't have an oscilloscope or even a multimeter. 😒

But I did check the clock in BIOS and it's a tiny bit fast that a normal watch.
Really not much but you can see that it jumps too fast every 3-4 seconds.

Here are some pictures from the BIOS settings, cache chips and PSU.
As mentioned in my first post, I already tested RAM and Cache timings but it didn't make a difference.

Am386DX-40+FasMath, TVGA8900D-R, SB2.0
i486DX4-100, CL-GD5428VLB, PicoGUS+WP32McCake
MMX 233, S3 ViRGE/DX, Voodoo, SB16+Dreamblaster
K6-III+ 570, GeForce 2 Ti, V2 SLI, SB16+Dreamblaster
P2-450, V3, SBLive
P3-S 1,4 Tualatin, GF6600GT, SB Audigy 2ZS

Reply 8 of 9, by uniQ

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Could the CR2032 holder with diode be the culprit here? It replaced the Varta barrel battery.

Am386DX-40+FasMath, TVGA8900D-R, SB2.0
i486DX4-100, CL-GD5428VLB, PicoGUS+WP32McCake
MMX 233, S3 ViRGE/DX, Voodoo, SB16+Dreamblaster
K6-III+ 570, GeForce 2 Ti, V2 SLI, SB16+Dreamblaster
P2-450, V3, SBLive
P3-S 1,4 Tualatin, GF6600GT, SB Audigy 2ZS

Reply 9 of 9, by Nexxen

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uniQ wrote on 17 minutes ago:

Could the CR2032 holder with diode be the culprit here? It replaced the Varta barrel battery.

IIRC it would deplete the battery faster, not having any influence over the BIOS.
You can replace it live, you don't need to remove it while shut down. Don't use screwdriver though.

Every 3-4 seconds it looses time? 10 seconds are indeed 10 seconds, not caring for display timing?

Could be the 32KHz crystal. If the frequency wave that is outputted by the board isn't good (too much ripple) it could have adverse effects on the system stability overall like you described.
This could happen when the waves from sinusoidal to square are too bad to work correctly with other components (timings matter).

I've topped my knowledge, to troubleshoot you need more material like a multimeter, oscilloscope...
Unless someone who actually knows what is going on appears and teaches us 😀

This looks totally "rapairable" to me. Just boring 😀

Btw, would you test with just one row of cache? TAG + Bank 0, then Bank 1 (if it works) and try moving around chips until it doesn't fail.
I told you it's boring ....

PC#1 Pentium 233 MMX - 98SE
PC#2 PIII-1Ghz - 98SE/W2K

"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios