digger wrote on 2025-09-13, 00:36:

As someone who has been exclusively been running Linux on my personal machines, I can attest that Linux has indeed come quite a […]
Show full quote

As someone who has been exclusively been running Linux on my personal machines, I can attest that Linux has indeed come quite a long way over the past two decades.

These days, it's really a generally usable desktop OS for most average users.

People who used it years ago and got burnt by it should really give it another chance.

And thanks to Valve and Proton, even for playing (Windows) games, it's a solid platform now. One major thing holding it back in terms of gaming compatibility is the issue of anti-cheat mechanisms that actually require kernel-level access in Windows, which not only doesn't work in Linux, but is actually a security risk on Windows. But I believe Valve is already working with some game manufacturers to tackle that the challenge of anti-cheat compatibility as well.

The problem Linux has is even the consumer friendly distros refuse to ditch what I call "Linux-ism". That and lack of support from the commercial sector.

Forced reliance on command line for things achieved via GUI on other operating systems, constantly requiring users to retype passwords and such even after they've authenticated themselves by logging onto the computer, etc. Its also just a fact that the commercial sector doesn't want to support Linux because there are too many variable, many notable multiplayer games have blocked Linux via their anti-cheat because they found 75-80 percent of hackers in their games were on Linux to defeat the anti-cheat.

The average computer user (even most power users) will never tolerate something that requires command line use on a regular basis, and 95 percent of the computing public doesn't need the security-paranoid settings that Linux at least defaults to (there may be ways to make it work more like Windows with UAC at a reasonable setting, I'm not sure).

All of this isn't helped by the fact any time the Linux community gets pushback for being backwards and outdated in their approaches to thing they just say "well keep using Windows then" and then they get mad when people do exactly that instead of suffering through learning how to use Linux.

bakemono wrote on 2025-09-13, 08:01:

I used Linux Mint XFCE for a while this year. Installation went fine, but it ended up being glitchy and weird like Linux always is. About 20% of the time the whole system would freeze.

I felt like I was the only one. Linux Mint looks like a good first step toward making Linux usable by regular people, but I couldn't get it to work on my computer. It went so poorly on boring business-class hardware with Intel integrated graphics that I can't recommend it to anyone. That same hardware can run other distros fine (even with the same desktop environment), but in Mint, a modern system with Microsoft's blessing to run Windows 11 can't even play back a DVD rip without dropping frames.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2025-09-13, 16:39:

Forced reliance on command line for things achieved via GUI on other operating systems

Maybe on some distros/desktop environments but this is mostly not true anymore.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2025-09-13, 16:39:

constantly requiring users to retype passwords and such even after they've authenticated themselves by logging onto the computer, etc.

Huh? You need to type the password when you change the system. Windows works exactly the same way.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2025-09-13, 16:39:

many notable multiplayer games have blocked Linux via their anti-cheat because they found 75-80 percent of hackers in their games were on Linux to defeat the anti-cheat.

Kernel level anticheat does not work on Linux because nobody wants such malware in the kernel. Also, I think there was/were some anticheat system(s) that blocked Linux users and it did not impact the amount of cheaters at all. It was just an excuse to drop Linux support.

TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2025-09-13, 16:39:

The average computer user (even most power users) will never tolerate something that requires command line use on a regular basis, and 95 percent of the computing public doesn't need the security-paranoid settings that Linux at least defaults to (there may be ways to make it work more like Windows with UAC at a reasonable setting, I'm not sure).

All of this isn't helped by the fact any time the Linux community gets pushback for being backwards and outdated in their approaches to thing they just say "well keep using Windows then" and then they get mad when people do exactly that instead of suffering through learning how to use Linux.

That's pretty much my experience.

I've used Debian on and off since woody, initially just dabbling and later with some specific things I wanted to do (Rosegarden, web server, CUDA, R server, mangos, hadoop). Not a lot of point recounting the hassles I've had over the years because a lot of this goes back some way and things will have moved on (but I shudder to think of sound drivers and GUI configuration). Most of this eventually worked, other than CUDA which I think was down to nvidia driver problems (was not an install or configuration issue, maybe something to do with libraries, can't remember and no longer care). My last Debian install (in a VM under Windows 10) was still operating last time I tried it - that was for the specific purpose of running an R server on my network.

I only tried Mint once, when I installed it on a fruit iMac. Didn't really gel with it. Likewise Ubuntu. For me it's enough of a culture shock to come to grips with how linux works enough to use it (as opposed to Windows). Mint and Ubuntu (if I am remembering right) impose another layer of configuration and standard software etc onto you, even basic things like software management and how the menus work (if you can find them).

All of which makes me want to install linux again for more self-flagellation... 🤣. Maybe this time wine will work.

^IMHO Windows 95 already started to ruin everything.:
A lot (!) of incompetent, poorly educated people suddenly had the tool to
operate a PC by randomly clicking on any colouful icon until it worked.

It's maybe like with introduction of television, which killed the radio.
Because before television, the audience still had to actually listen and think.

I'm saying this because Windows 95 just had turned 30, so it came to my mind.
And the press of 2025 praises it through and through. Where's the criticism? Critical journalism? Sigh. 😞

And most importantly were are the jokes/parodies (Hiroshima '45, Tschernobyl '86, Windows 95) and the reports of its instability? 🙂

https://www.techradar.com/pro/windows-95-at-3 … ead-of-its-time

https://www.pcworld.com/article/2889426/windo … -farm-eggs.html

Not sure why anybody would care to criticise 95 in 2025. It was a product of its time.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2025-09-13, 16:19:

I needed to manually update Wine, because provided repository was atrociously out of date and didn't had desktop integration. Then again, that's what you get on Debian generally.

https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Debian-Ubuntu

Linux still have some trouble, but it was ready for the desktop 20 years ago.

I remember how good was the installer of the Mandrake 10, compared to Windows (98, Me, Xp).
I had a serial modem and a parallel printer at the time. All I have to do was to keep both on during the installation. The system automatically ask me to configure them. The only driver that I had to install was for the video card, and only to get the 3D acceleration.
Much easy and quick than Windows, where I had to install the driver for every single device.

ratfink wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:23:

Not sure why anybody would care to criticise 95 in 2025. It was a product of its time.

Because its one sided journalism; the press in 1995 did not hide the negative sides back then.
Unlike nowadays press. They merely tell one side of the story, which alters our understanding of history.
Negative things shouldn't be hidden or left out, otherwise there's no way to address shortcomings or learn from it.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2025-09-13, 16:19:

Linux Mint Debian Edition 6 should be the same as Debian Bookworm, but with Cinnamon as GUI. I like it, but it's definitely not optimal out of the box. I needed to manually update Wine, because provided repository was atrociously out of date and didn't had desktop integration. Then again, that's what you get on Debian generally.

I think I tried Mint with Cinnamon, MATE and XFCE. None supported multi-touch out of the box. I think touch worked, but was like clicking a mouse. There was no pinch support for example, as it didnt detect multitouch.

Jo22 wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:40:

Because its one sided journalism; the press in 1995 did not hide the negative sides back then. Unlike nowadays press. They merel […]
Show full quote

ratfink wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:23:

Not sure why anybody would care to criticise 95 in 2025. It was a product of its time.

Because its one sided journalism; the press in 1995 did not hide the negative sides back then.
Unlike nowadays press. They merely tell one side of the story, which alters our understanding of history.
Negative things shouldn't be hidden or left out, otherwise there's no way to address shortcomings or learn from it.

Still not seeing why that matters now. Did it cause some catastrophe that affected the course of human history, or was it a step away from DOS and towards the windows people use now? And the lessons learned influenced OS design for the following iterations...

they're just upset there's no w31 fanatics to make a w31 shell makeover for linux.

Anyway my plan's just Debian +XFCE4 + bothXPTC and Chicago95 andmaybeifitdoesntcrash Platinum. Don't care much about mint, bazzite, twister, pop, argh, void, etc. i'm still waiting for the blasphemous variant of linux that has drive letters and case insensitivity

leileilol wrote on 2025-09-14, 09:08:

they're just upset there's no w31 fanatics to make a w31 shell makeover for linux.

Win 3.x and ancient Motif looked similar already (similar control elements).

ratfink wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:52:

Still not seeing why that matters now.

Then you're beyond help, I'm afraid. What matters, anyway?

While I do have Linux on my desktop, it's not used much, maybe for some odd specifics. With my expectations, it's simply an exercise in futility and gains me nothing over Windows as a daily driver. And I dislike dual/triple/etc. booting in general.

Jo22 wrote on 2025-09-14, 09:54:

What matters, anyway?

Nothing, life is pointless and then you die.

Or at least preventing suffering.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:46:

I think I tried Mint with Cinnamon, MATE and XFCE. None supported multi-touch out of the box. I think touch worked, but was like clicking a mouse. There was no pinch support for example, as it didnt detect multitouch.

It's all a fork of Ubuntu LTS distribution, which is a fork of a fork of Debian.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2025-09-14, 10:36:

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:46:

I think I tried Mint with Cinnamon, MATE and XFCE. None supported multi-touch out of the box. I think touch worked, but was like clicking a mouse. There was no pinch support for example, as it didnt detect multitouch.

It's all a fork of Ubuntu LTS distribution, which is a fork of a fork of Debian.

Yes, I am aware. I am not talking about Mint Debian Edition though. I am saying that Debian (what Mint and Ubuntu are forked from) worked out of the box with my touchscreen. Both Ubuntu (With Gnome I think) and Mint (With Cinamon, MATE or XFCE didn't). Though, to be fair, I chose to install KDE on Debian. I dont think that is supported on Mint, and I didnt try Kubuntu.

Jo22 wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:40:

ratfink wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:23:

Not sure why anybody would care to criticise 95 in 2025. It was a product of its time.

Because its one sided journalism; the press in 1995 did not hide the negative sides back then.

Maybe they're young? I don't remember much issues with 95, though all it mattered back then was that it ran NBA Live '97 and a couple of didactic 2D games.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-09-14, 13:11:

I am saying that Debian (what Mint and Ubuntu are forked from) worked out of the box with my touchscreen. Both Ubuntu (With Gnome I think) and Mint (With Cinamon, MATE or XFCE didn't). Though, to be fair, I chose to install KDE on Debian.

KDE could be the reason.

I wonder if there's any other normal desktop environment these days with ability to turn off mouse acceleration from provided settings application or whatever that doesn't require a terminal and modifying obscure config files.

majinga wrote on 2025-09-14, 08:34:

Linux still have some trouble, but it was ready for the desktop 20 years ago. […]
Show full quote

Linux still have some trouble, but it was ready for the desktop 20 years ago.

I remember how good was the installer of the Mandrake 10, compared to Windows (98, Me, Xp).
I had a serial modem and a parallel printer at the time. All I have to do was to keep both on during the installation. The system automatically ask me to configure them. The only driver that I had to install was for the video card, and only to get the 3D acceleration.
Much easy and quick than Windows, where I had to install the driver for every single device.

The Linux kernel has been very proficient at supporting a multitude of hardware devices over the decades. Once plug and play support got ironed out, things got even better. These last few years, hardware support is probably the best it has ever been (both in-kernel and third party).

In 2004, you arguably got lucky. If you had had a WIFI card (anyone remember NDISWRAPPER ?) a newer host processing based printer, a winmodem or some other hardware for which there was no Linux support (or spotty support), things would have been different for you.

These days, installing Linux on a new (or not so new) machine is almost seamless for many users even, I would dare say, the average one. In 2004, one either had to be lucky, selective of hardware, proficient at debugging, a patient and diligent learner or, most likely, a combination of several of these.

That is not to say that the kernel and major Linux distros of that era were not usable for someone's desktop, just that the chances of hitting an unsolvable (for the average user) issue were much higher.

Additionally, the local "grass roots" support network for Linux was likely not nearly as good as it is now. I have been working in IT for several decades as have several friends and colleagues from school and later work, so my network of people who I could have asked for help (or vice versa) on a Linux related issue was has always been better than the average joe's. The average person usually had a relative, friend, neighbor, computer shop, etc that could help address a Windows problem/reinstall (and even that wasn't a given, based on what I have heard), but not a necessarily a Linux one. I suspect that has gotten better (I am the wrong person to ask).

Now that people usually have more than one device to access the Internet with, if their Linux machine is broken, they can also more easily search for solutions or ask in forums versus 20+ years ago, but that is tangential.

leileilol wrote on 2025-09-14, 09:08:

i'm still waiting for the blasphemous variant of linux that has drive letters and case insensitivity

Why would you want the legacy cruft that are drive letters? I'm sure you can make folders C, D, E etc. in / then mount your partitions there. There's your drive letters! 😂 And case sensitivity is good as it enforces discipline and consistency in naming.

And make Linux interpret RTC as local time while at it for Windows n00bs who don't set RealTimeIsUniversal=1.

UCyborg wrote on 2025-09-13, 06:19:

Jo22 wrote on 2025-09-13, 05:32:

How is this difference being justified? 😟
Why does Raspbian of 2012 needed so much less, while having same feature set?

The crazy amount of programmers think it's NORMAL for used CPU cycles to scale with CPU advancements, for the same task! They're nuts!

Adding to that, old hardware is simply irrelevant for the most part outside of community visiting obscure forums such as this one.

I once read somewhere Android x86 is supposed to be good for weak hardware. Well I got Bliss OS 11 based on Android 9 on a cheap laptop from 11 years ago. I swear the disk is loudest with that one. I tried playing Assassin's Creed: Pirates and there was at least one part of the game that just didn't render - the wonderful state of Linux graphics drivers. I also didn't have working GPU video decoding. Well, the actual smartphones and tablets with sanctioned Android support, there Android usually behaves better.