A lot will depend on if/what copy protection was used on the master disks.

This is usually on the form of intentionally "bad" sectors - sometimes the
installer just looks for certain sectors known sectors to be "bad" and others
"good" - better schemes used sector formats that the PC's Nec765 Floppy Disk
Controller chip could technically read, but were not implemented in PC BIOS or
OS drivers - this would involve the installer talking "directly" to the FDC.

The best schmemes used formats/bat sectors that the 765 could detect/read, but
not write...

Many such schemes ran into problems with "clones" and later original PC as they
would have their FDC in "system chips" which didn't always implement Nec765
functionality that was never officially used in the PC world.

Such schemes can limit your ability to read/recover the disk.

---

I strongly recommend using my "ImageDisk" tool to try reading the disks .. IMD
was originally designed to be able to archive/recover disks from as many non-PC
systems as it could (usually older pre-PC systems), and for this reason it is
able to read/write any FD format the the PC hardware is capable of doing, even
if the standard PC software can not.

IMD can also read as many sectors as it can from a diskette, and later recombine
many such reads into as complete an image as could be recovered.

---

Things to keep in mind:

Disk failure with age is most often caused by the magnetic material on the
disk deterioating, usually "flaking" off ... and every time the disk media
passes under a drive head, it can flake more... so you want to limit how
much you try to read the disk ... and use CLEAN drive heads - any contamination
on the heads can lead to increased deterioation.

Drives are different! - head pressure and alignment can differ slightly between
drives - normally with a good/strong media this isn't noticable, but as disks
get worse, one drive may be able to read what another could not.

Sometimes you can recover sectors/tracks by slghtly misaligning a drive - media
may be slightly better on one side of a track - moving the head slightly to
cause that side to be stronger can make a difference.

Also note that for 5.25" drives, if you are trying to recover DD disk, a HD
drive might help - HD heads are thinner and can focus more on a part of a track.

--

Original disks can be bulk-erased, reformatted and rewritten (once you have been
able to make a working copy on "other" disks) --- but be aware that if the
problem was caused by age deterioation, the newly written disk won't last!
Sometimes it's best to keep the originals to prove that you have a legit copy,
but use an "unofficial" set as a working copy.

Recovering damaged media is sometimes possible, but can take a LOT of work/time.
If you can find an undamaged copy of the game, it might be easier
to restore your disks.

Are you sure ROTT had any form of disk protection in the first place? I don't own ROTT but don't think any of my Apogee games had any.
I could be wrong but I'd bet it's just a standard disk thats gone bad and if you could find a good image of the disk it would write on the disk without error and work just fine.
Assuming if the original disk itself is still good which it probably isn't and was the cause of the issue all along.

DaveDDS wrote on 2025-10-14, 02:42:

A lot will depend on if/what copy protection was used on the master disks. […]
Show full quote

A lot will depend on if/what copy protection was used on the master disks.

This is usually on the form of intentionally "bad" sectors - sometimes the
installer just looks for certain sectors known sectors to be "bad" and others
"good" - better schemes used sector formats that the PC's Nec765 Floppy Disk
Controller chip could technically read, but were not implemented in PC BIOS or
OS drivers - this would involve the installer talking "directly" to the FDC.

The best schmemes used formats/bat sectors that the 765 could detect/read, but
not write...

Many such schemes ran into problems with "clones" and later original PC as they
would have their FDC in "system chips" which didn't always implement Nec765
functionality that was never officially used in the PC world.

Such schemes can limit your ability to read/recover the disk.

---

I strongly recommend using my "ImageDisk" tool to try reading the disks .. IMD
was originally designed to be able to archive/recover disks from as many non-PC
systems as it could (usually older pre-PC systems), and for this reason it is
able to read/write any FD format the the PC hardware is capable of doing, even
if the standard PC software can not.

IMD can also read as many sectors as it can from a diskette, and later recombine
many such reads into as complete an image as could be recovered.

---

Things to keep in mind:

Disk failure with age is most often caused by the magnetic material on the
disk deterioating, usually "flaking" off ... and every time the disk media
passes under a drive head, it can flake more... so you want to limit how
much you try to read the disk ... and use CLEAN drive heads - any contamination
on the heads can lead to increased deterioation.

Drives are different! - head pressure and alignment can differ slightly between
drives - normally with a good/strong media this isn't noticable, but as disks
get worse, one drive may be able to read what another could not.

Sometimes you can recover sectors/tracks by slghtly misaligning a drive - media
may be slightly better on one side of a track - moving the head slightly to
cause that side to be stronger can make a difference.

Also note that for 5.25" drives, if you are trying to recover DD disk, a HD
drive might help - HD heads are thinner and can focus more on a part of a track.

--

Original disks can be bulk-erased, reformatted and rewritten (once you have been
able to make a working copy on "other" disks) --- but be aware that if the
problem was caused by age deterioation, the newly written disk won't last!
Sometimes it's best to keep the originals to prove that you have a legit copy,
but use an "unofficial" set as a working copy.

Recovering damaged media is sometimes possible, but can take a LOT of work/time.
If you can find an undamaged copy of the game, it might be easier
to restore your disks.

Thanks for the informative advice, guys. Much appreciated. One question I did forget to ask - if the floppy disk can be reformatted and written to etc, is it possible to replace the interior of the diskette with that of another? I did notice, after I'd cleaned it, that one side did have some markings. I wouldn't be surprised if I added those. >_< But then, I only used a q-tip with some warm soapy water and lighty dried it with paper towelling. If those markings were there from the start, that's probably why it's failing. So with that in mind, surely I could replace it with a workable one and then transfer the files to it?

But thanks for the suggestion. I'll give ImageDisk a try and report back. 😁 It doesn't look like there are many UK/European copies on eBay at the moment, so I could be waiting a while. Plus, it'll be quite pricey just to replace 1-2 disks if they come complete. ^^;

chinny22 wrote on 2025-10-14, 03:58:

Are you sure ROTT had any form of disk protection in the first place? I don't own ROTT but don't think any of my Apogee games had any.
I could be wrong but I'd bet it's just a standard disk thats gone bad and if you could find a good image of the disk it would write on the disk without error and work just fine.
Assuming if the original disk itself is still good which it probably isn't and was the cause of the issue all along.

Ooh. Let's hope not then.

DaveDDS wrote on 2025-10-14, 02:42:

A lot will depend on if/what copy protection was used on the master disks. […]
Show full quote

A lot will depend on if/what copy protection was used on the master disks.

This is usually on the form of intentionally "bad" sectors - sometimes the
installer just looks for certain sectors known sectors to be "bad" and others
"good" - better schemes used sector formats that the PC's Nec765 Floppy Disk
Controller chip could technically read, but were not implemented in PC BIOS or
OS drivers - this would involve the installer talking "directly" to the FDC.

The best schmemes used formats/bat sectors that the 765 could detect/read, but
not write...

Many such schemes ran into problems with "clones" and later original PC as they
would have their FDC in "system chips" which didn't always implement Nec765
functionality that was never officially used in the PC world.

Such schemes can limit your ability to read/recover the disk.

---

I strongly recommend using my "ImageDisk" tool to try reading the disks .. IMD
was originally designed to be able to archive/recover disks from as many non-PC
systems as it could (usually older pre-PC systems), and for this reason it is
able to read/write any FD format the the PC hardware is capable of doing, even
if the standard PC software can not.

IMD can also read as many sectors as it can from a diskette, and later recombine
many such reads into as complete an image as could be recovered.

---

Things to keep in mind:

Disk failure with age is most often caused by the magnetic material on the
disk deterioating, usually "flaking" off ... and every time the disk media
passes under a drive head, it can flake more... so you want to limit how
much you try to read the disk ... and use CLEAN drive heads - any contamination
on the heads can lead to increased deterioation.

Drives are different! - head pressure and alignment can differ slightly between
drives - normally with a good/strong media this isn't noticable, but as disks
get worse, one drive may be able to read what another could not.

Sometimes you can recover sectors/tracks by slghtly misaligning a drive - media
may be slightly better on one side of a track - moving the head slightly to
cause that side to be stronger can make a difference.

Also note that for 5.25" drives, if you are trying to recover DD disk, a HD
drive might help - HD heads are thinner and can focus more on a part of a track.

--

Original disks can be bulk-erased, reformatted and rewritten (once you have been
able to make a working copy on "other" disks) --- but be aware that if the
problem was caused by age deterioation, the newly written disk won't last!
Sometimes it's best to keep the originals to prove that you have a legit copy,
but use an "unofficial" set as a working copy.

Recovering damaged media is sometimes possible, but can take a LOT of work/time.
If you can find an undamaged copy of the game, it might be easier
to restore your disks.

You wouldn't happen to have the latest version of ImageDisk? Google isn't coming up with much and the link for 1.20 on your site gives me two errors when I try to extract:

Incorrect reparse stream : Unspecified error : IMDA.COM
Incorrect reparse stream : Unspecified error : IMDCMT.BAT

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-10-14, 09:06:

... One question I did forget to ask - if the floppy disk can be reformatted and written to etc, is it possible to replace the interior of the diskette with that of another? ...

I have done this in the past - it really depends on the type of disk and how hard it is to open without causing excessive damage.

3.5s usually break, if you are careful you might only break the internal bindings ... In these cases, I use a "soft" glue (like a drop of caulking) to make
it work - and be able to take it apart more easily in the future.

5.25s can be slightly easier - it's sometimes possible to open the end away from the "slot" with a thin sharp knife.
(I've also had cases where I just cut off the far edge, swapped the media and either used a touch of glue on the very edge, or tape to reseal the edge.
It really depends on how "like new" you need it to be)

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-10-14, 09:18:

You wouldn't happen to have the latest version of ImageDisk? ...

The latest IMD is always available on my "Daves Old Computers" website, look under "Software/Images" (near bottom of main page)

Incorrect reparse stream : Unspecified error : IMDA.COM
Incorrect reparse stream : Unspecified error : IMDCMT.BAT

I don't recognize these error messages, and I've just scanned my IMD source tree, and they don't exist in any of my code.

Two possibilities come to mind:

- You are using an unofficial (ie: hacked) copy of IMD

- Whatever way you are loading/running them is unable to do so and reporting these errors....
note that IMD must run under DOS as it has to directly access PC hardware.

DaveDDS wrote on 2025-10-14, 14:41:

The latest IMD is always available on my "Daves Old Computers" website, look under "Software/Images" (near bottom of main page) […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-10-14, 09:18:

You wouldn't happen to have the latest version of ImageDisk? ...

The latest IMD is always available on my "Daves Old Computers" website, look under "Software/Images" (near bottom of main page)

Incorrect reparse stream : Unspecified error : IMDA.COM
Incorrect reparse stream : Unspecified error : IMDCMT.BAT

I don't recognize these error messages, and I've just scanned my IMD source tree, and they don't exist in any of my code.

Two possibilities come to mind:

- You are using an unofficial (ie: hacked) copy of IMD

- Whatever way you are loading/running them is unable to do so and reporting these errors....
note that IMD must run under DOS as it has to directly access PC hardware.

It was from Dave's Old Computers under Software/Images. I tend to use 7Zip for extracting. I can try extracting them on my 98 PC and see if that helps.

DaveDDS wrote on 2025-10-14, 14:30:

I have done this in the past - it really depends on the type of disk and how hard it is to open without causing excessive damage […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-10-14, 09:06:

... One question I did forget to ask - if the floppy disk can be reformatted and written to etc, is it possible to replace the interior of the diskette with that of another? ...

I have done this in the past - it really depends on the type of disk and how hard it is to open without causing excessive damage.

3.5s usually break, if you are careful you might only break the internal bindings ... In these cases, I use a "soft" glue (like a drop of caulking) to make
it work - and be able to take it apart more easily in the future.

5.25s can be slightly easier - it's sometimes possible to open the end away from the "slot" with a thin sharp knife.
(I've also had cases where I just cut off the far edge, swapped the media and either used a touch of glue on the very edge, or tape to reseal the edge.
It really depends on how "like new" you need it to be)

Well, it definitely doesn't need to be super new. None of the other diskettes are. I managed to open disk 1 without issues yesterday. I have small plectrum tools to pry them open. I've never had or used 5.25s before. ^^

DaveDDS wrote on 2025-10-14, 02:42:

A lot will depend on if/what copy protection was used on the master disks. […]
Show full quote

A lot will depend on if/what copy protection was used on the master disks.

This is usually on the form of intentionally "bad" sectors - sometimes the
installer just looks for certain sectors known sectors to be "bad" and others
"good" - better schemes used sector formats that the PC's Nec765 Floppy Disk
Controller chip could technically read, but were not implemented in PC BIOS or
OS drivers - this would involve the installer talking "directly" to the FDC.

The best schmemes used formats/bat sectors that the 765 could detect/read, but
not write...

Many such schemes ran into problems with "clones" and later original PC as they
would have their FDC in "system chips" which didn't always implement Nec765
functionality that was never officially used in the PC world.

Such schemes can limit your ability to read/recover the disk.

---

I strongly recommend using my "ImageDisk" tool to try reading the disks .. IMD
was originally designed to be able to archive/recover disks from as many non-PC
systems as it could (usually older pre-PC systems), and for this reason it is
able to read/write any FD format the the PC hardware is capable of doing, even
if the standard PC software can not.

IMD can also read as many sectors as it can from a diskette, and later recombine
many such reads into as complete an image as could be recovered.

---

Things to keep in mind:

Disk failure with age is most often caused by the magnetic material on the
disk deterioating, usually "flaking" off ... and every time the disk media
passes under a drive head, it can flake more... so you want to limit how
much you try to read the disk ... and use CLEAN drive heads - any contamination
on the heads can lead to increased deterioation.

Drives are different! - head pressure and alignment can differ slightly between
drives - normally with a good/strong media this isn't noticable, but as disks
get worse, one drive may be able to read what another could not.

Sometimes you can recover sectors/tracks by slghtly misaligning a drive - media
may be slightly better on one side of a track - moving the head slightly to
cause that side to be stronger can make a difference.

Also note that for 5.25" drives, if you are trying to recover DD disk, a HD
drive might help - HD heads are thinner and can focus more on a part of a track.

--

Original disks can be bulk-erased, reformatted and rewritten (once you have been
able to make a working copy on "other" disks) --- but be aware that if the
problem was caused by age deterioation, the newly written disk won't last!
Sometimes it's best to keep the originals to prove that you have a legit copy,
but use an "unofficial" set as a working copy.

Recovering damaged media is sometimes possible, but can take a LOT of work/time.
If you can find an undamaged copy of the game, it might be easier
to restore your disks.

Okay, I’m currently looking into how to use ImageDisk to investigate this dodgy floppy disk. Will update on what happens.

Hmm. I think I broke the disk when I tried cleaning it. 😕 Just trying to load the root of the disk gives me a general read error. So I’m not sure ImageDisk is going to be of help. Trust me to break something further. 🙄😅

You mean broke the drive while using a cleaning disk with ImageDisks "clean" function?

Proper cleaning disks have soft media which absorbs a bit of cleaner and ImageDisk "scrubs" the heads on it.
I've never had one break a drive - it's for the most part gentler than "normal" media.

Since actual cleaning disk are harder and harder to get these days, I've also got a 5.25" jacket opened at the outer
end, and sometimes cut media out of paper (works quite well if you can exactly match the media size - I keep on old dead media to trace when making)
(Never had one of these break a drive either)

If you mean you tried to "clean" the original diskette media surface through the access slots ... that's another thing and not commonly done. I could see it being very possible to damage the disk media.

DaveDDS wrote on 2025-11-11, 21:11:

You mean broke the drive while using a cleaning disk with ImageDisks "clean" function? […]
Show full quote

You mean broke the drive while using a cleaning disk with ImageDisks "clean" function?

Proper cleaning disks have soft media which absorbs a bit of cleaner and ImageDisk "scrubs" the heads on it.
I've never had one break a drive - it's for the most part gentler than "normal" media.

Since actual cleaning disk are harder and harder to get these days, I've also got a 5.25" jacket opened at the outer
end, and sometimes cut media out of paper (works quite well if you can exactly match the media size - I keep on old dead media to trace when making)
(Never had one of these break a drive either)

If you mean you tried to "clean" the original diskette media surface through the access slots ... that's another thing and not commonly done. I could see it being very possible to damage the disk media.

Yeah, sorry, I meant the latter. ^^; I watched a video of someone cleaning a floppy drive and the inside of a diskette.

I'm currently trying some software I used previously to see if I can rescue the data from it and then I'll see if reformatting it will help or perhaps I'll just need to replace the diskette inside with that of a working one.

EDIT: Scratch that. It wasn't able to. 🙁

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-11-11, 21:39:

Yeah, sorry, I meant the latter. ^^; I watched a video of someone cleaning a floppy drive and the inside of a diskette.

Are there visible marks on the media now?

Normally to physical damage media you have to stress it enough to make a visible scratch or dent,
or use some sort of metal/magnetized tool to cause invisible flux damage - but I'm guessing you didn't try to clean the soft media with a metal tool?

If you have a drive on a win9x machine or even a usb drive on a modern machine, you could try the software Badcopy. I've had some luck getting things off disks with that where the data otherwise could not be retrieved through conventional reading/copying.

For something popular and well known like Rise of the Triad, I bet you can find disk images of those online without a lot of trouble, and then you could try to write the disk with the image. Failing everything else, I guess you could write the disk image to a completely different disk and then work on recreating the appropriate label for it to match the look of the others. Or if you're concerned about the collectable value, just tuck a backup disk into the box - that way you have the original collectable disks, but also the functionality of the backup disk for when you might need it for the install 😀

Also... Glad to see I'm not the only one buying ancient disk copies of games and then seeing if I can still install them with the og floppies 😀

dukeofurl wrote on 2025-11-11, 22:00:

If you have a drive on a win9x machine or even a usb drive on a modern machine, you could try the software Badcopy. I've had some luck getting things off disks with that where the data otherwise could not be retrieved through conventional reading/copying.

For something popular and well known like Rise of the Triad, I bet you can find disk images of those online without a lot of trouble, and then you could try to write the disk with the image. Failing everything else, I guess you could write the disk image to a completely different disk and then work on recreating the appropriate label for it to match the look of the others. Or if you're concerned about the collectable value, just tuck a backup disk into the box - that way you have the original collectable disks, but also the functionality of the backup disk for when you might need it for the install 😀

Also... Glad to see I'm not the only one buying ancient disk copies of games and then seeing if I can still install them with the og floppies 😀

Thanks for the suggestions. 😁 I'll give Badcopy a try next. I've tried iCare Format Recovery and I'm currently trying Recuva. But yeah, worst case I'll just have to get the image online and try transferring it back. I'll avoid re-creating everything, such as the label. The official ones have the writing printed to the disk rather than a sticker. I've managed to copy the data of disks 2-5, so for the collectible value, it would be nice to get this one sorted. I did manage to get the CD-ROM version, but it would still be nice to keep all disks intact and working. 😀 But I'll certainly be making disk images of disk games I have and load them onto my Gotek to prevent the originals getting damaged.

dukeofurl wrote on 2025-11-11, 22:00:

If you have a drive on a win9x machine or even a usb drive on a modern machine, you could try the software Badcopy. I've had some luck getting things off disks with that where the data otherwise could not be retrieved through conventional reading/copying.

For something popular and well known like Rise of the Triad, I bet you can find disk images of those online without a lot of trouble, and then you could try to write the disk with the image. Failing everything else, I guess you could write the disk image to a completely different disk and then work on recreating the appropriate label for it to match the look of the others. Or if you're concerned about the collectable value, just tuck a backup disk into the box - that way you have the original collectable disks, but also the functionality of the backup disk for when you might need it for the install 😀

Also... Glad to see I'm not the only one buying ancient disk copies of games and then seeing if I can still install them with the og floppies 😀

Well, Badcopy looks to be quite thorough and good, though despite doing a full scan, which took the whole day, it couldn't find any files to save at all. 🙁

Recuva did find 5 files during it's long scan, but towards the end, I accidentally knocked the external floppy drive and had to go through it all again. >_< I let it run all night only to discover the next morning, either because of going into standby/sleep, the system froze and I couldn't even see the results. >_< Now going to try for a third and final time.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-11-12, 17:53:

Well, Badcopy looks to be quite thorough and good, though despite doing a full scan, which took the whole day ...
Recuva ... I let it run all night ...

I'm not familiar with these tools, but I do know floppy disks quite well - if a "scan" involves constant (or nearly so) disk spinning ... really bad things can happen to old media during excessive access...

To be fair, bad things happen with old media with even short accesses ... but usually not enough to cause noticeable short-term damage- this is why you should always make copies of original diskettes you really want to keep, and work from those copies.

Recuva isn't an option either. I left it alone to do its thing and checking back on my system, the tool has disappeared. So I presume it crashes every time. 🙁

I guess it's time for plan B and I'll have to find the file online. See if I can replace it that way. Or replace the interior of the disk.