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Compact flash recommendation needed please

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Reply 20 of 34, by Nemo1985

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dekkit wrote on 2023-01-19, 02:18:

What tool did you use I.e. crystal disk - if I get time, I'll test them in my windows 10 machine to see what I get.

I used CrystalDiskMark indeed, with those settings: 5 and 256, I took the lowest values for read and write for both read and write test.
I'm looking forward to check how your chinese card will perform, thank you!

Reply 21 of 34, by waterbeesje

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For me this good old method always seem to work:

- on modern pc, remove all partition data, no new created (diskpart, clear)
- on old pc, boot from floppy, cd, gotek, removable X
- fdisk the new partition
- reboot
- format /s
- reboot (still from removable)
- fdisk /MBR
- reboot from C:\

I also have a few of these white label CF cards (8GB) and they are slow but seem to work ok 😀
But I prefer the industrial class CF: much higher speed and should not wear out as soon as standard consumer class stuff.

Stuck at 10MHz...

Reply 22 of 34, by dekkit

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Nemo1985 wrote on 2023-01-19, 08:34:
dekkit wrote on 2023-01-19, 02:18:

What tool did you use I.e. crystal disk - if I get time, I'll test them in my windows 10 machine to see what I get.

I used CrystalDiskMark indeed, with those settings: 5 and 256, I took the lowest values for read and write for both read and write test.
I'm looking forward to check how your chinese card will perform, thank you!

Here we go using 5 and 500 (i didn't have 256 in my dropdown list)

CF CARD SIZE = 2GB
BRAND = 2003 MemoryTechnology Company (made in taiwan)
Filesystem = Fat16

connected via usb card reader

Results copied over from the app (using the copy function)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 36.584 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 20.982 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 10.616 MB/s [ 2591.8 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 0.207 MB/s [ 50.5 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 10.536 MB/s [ 2572.3 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 0.194 MB/s [ 47.4 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 9.468 MB/s [ 2311.5 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 0.205 MB/s [ 50.0 IOPS]

Test : 500 MiB [E: 0.1% (1.2/1875.9 MiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2023/01/19 21:15:55

...

CF CARD SIZE = 4GB
BRAND = 2003 MemoryTechnology Company (made in taiwan)
Filesystem = Fat32

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 11.955 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 9.331 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 4.686 MB/s [ 1144.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 0.061 MB/s [ 14.9 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 4.690 MB/s [ 1145.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 0.060 MB/s [ 14.6 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 4.438 MB/s [ 1083.5 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 0.057 MB/s [ 13.9 IOPS]

Test : 500 MiB [E: 0.0% (0.0/3912.1 MiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2023/01/19 21:32:30

...

CF CARD SIZE = 512MB
BRAND = 2003 MemoryTechnology Company (made in taiwan)
Filesystem = Fat16

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 17.578 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 4.740 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 9.900 MB/s [ 2417.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 0.118 MB/s [ 28.8 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 9.704 MB/s [ 2369.1 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 0.115 MB/s [ 28.1 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 7.903 MB/s [ 1929.4 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 0.111 MB/s [ 27.1 IOPS]

Test : 100 MiB [E: 0.4% (2.0/487.5 MiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2023/01/19 21:43:49

Reply 23 of 34, by dekkit

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waterbeesje wrote on 2023-01-19, 09:13:
For me this good old method always seem to work: […]
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For me this good old method always seem to work:

- on modern pc, remove all partition data, no new created (diskpart, clear)
- on old pc, boot from floppy, cd, gotek, removable X
- fdisk the new partition
- reboot
- format /s
- reboot (still from removable)
- fdisk /MBR
- reboot from C:\

I also have a few of these white label CF cards (8GB) and they are slow but seem to work ok 😀
But I prefer the industrial class CF: much higher speed and should not wear out as soon as standard consumer class stuff.

tried this just now on a 2GB CF card .... boot failure (where as the RUFUS method worked on the same card)

Reply 24 of 34, by Nemo1985

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dekkit wrote on 2023-01-19, 10:44:

Here we go using 5 and 500 (i didn't have 256 in my dropdown list)

[...]

Imho 2gb card is fine, the 512mb is so slow...
They are probably relabelled as suggested...

Reply 25 of 34, by dekkit

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Just a further update:
- Ordered an original 2GB SanDisk CF card
- was so disappointed that initially it would not boot ms dos 6.22 no matter how many times i did fdisk / format etc etc (only RUFUS's FreeDOS method worked).
- HOWEVER on this occasion i also tried using ATCFWCHG (Change CF card mode between fixed/removable) - see here http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1862&menustate=0
- it received a pass for changing the mode (had it plugged in as a secondary IDE hdd - I used the command "ATCFWCHG.COM /P /F /1 " ).
- then I went through and did the steps for msdos fdisk, format /s (as mentioned above) etc etc and it then successfully booted MS DOS 6.22
- was able to progress and successfully install Win95b on it - so was pretty wrapped about that in the end!

So yes, worth exploring that CF Card mode changer - if anyone find this post via google etc and you have a "quality" CF card brand. It does actually make a difference for some CF cards and old DOS PCs.

As further note, for all these other cheap ali-express ones i posted above, I tried to see if that CF Card mode changer would make a difference and it didn't work on any of them (reported errors) 😁 - so it looks like i'm stuck with FreeDOS for those if i need to use them as a boot device.

Reply 26 of 34, by dekkit

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dekkit wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:42:

Example of the cheap cf cards in referring to...
-17071652981779948637.jpg

I decided to break open the casing for one of these cheap CF cards (the 512MB one). Here's what they look like including PCB and IC.

PCB Top

The attachment 20230211_223404.jpg is no longer available

Flash RAM = TOSHIBA NT5896 TC58NVG2S3ETA00 (~512MB)
Controller IC = STEC 24850-03333-xI1u

PCB Bottom

The attachment 20230211_223457.jpg is no longer available

The controller looks pretty common for flashdisks (not just CF cards) but was unable to find a download datasheet to see if there is anyway to enable more IDE style features on these things (possibly change the fixed disk in hardware).
Looks like it a similar chip to what is used in the Industrial 44pin IDE drives (ie SLFLD25-2GM1UI)

Reply 27 of 34, by Jo22

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Guys.. Um, there's something I have to get off my chest.. Hope you don't mind.
a) some of the OPs of this thread have "left" the forums, in both ways, I'm afraid.
b) it is access time (in ms) that matters, if we replace maniacal drives by SSDs.
c) fixed vs removable doesn't matter, at least not for DOS/Win9x. For Win NT/2k, it does, yes. For Win CE - no idea.
For XP on CF, there are INFs and filter drivers (thanks, Car PC community!) to solve the problems.

Edit: Also, I highly appreciate your enthusiasm. Keep it up. 😄👍
Edit: Formatting fixed.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 28 of 34, by Jinxter

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I made this today with some help from ChatGPT.

CompactFlash cards are not real IDE hard drives, even though they can emulate IDE mode. Because of this, retro PCs with old BIOSes often have issues such as:
- “Missing operating system”
- “HDD controller failure”
- System hangs on boot
- Wrong CHS geometry
- CF card detected but not bootable
- Corrupted FAT or unreadable file system
- Removable vs Fixed Disk incompatibility
- Old leftover GPT/NTFS/camera metadata confusing the BIOS

To fix these issues, we use special tools

Ultimate workflow for a reliable DOS CF boot drive
- diskpart clean all (or CLEARHDD in pure DOS)
- Restore a clean image OR
- Boot from floppy and run:
- fdisk → create partition
- fdisk /mbr
- format c: /s
- Test geometry with HDAT2
- (Optional) set SanDisk CF to fixed disk using ATCFWCHG

This produces a stable CF boot drive for any 286/386/486/XT-IDE system.

Check out my YouTube channel: Retro Erik https://www.youtube.com/c/RetroErik
My collection: https://retro.hageseter.com
X: https://x.com/Retro_Erik

Reply 29 of 34, by Jinxter

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🟩 Why Rufus + FreeDOS + MBR suddenly makes “bad” CF cards boot
Rufus does several important things that most people don’t realize:
🟦 1. Rufus overwrites the first ~1 MB of the CF card
This includes:
MBR
BPB (boot sector)
Partition table
FAT root
Hidden sectors
OEM metadata
Garbage from previous filesystem
Camera/system blocks
Remnants of GPT/NTFS/exFAT

This is exactly what old BIOSes care about.
A damaged or mismatched boot sector is the most common reason a CF won’t boot on a 386/486 system.

🟦 2. Rufus writes a clean, known-good MBR bootloader
Rufus uses:
a simple, standard MS-DOS-style MBR
a standard INT13h-compatible BPB
a FAT16 partition aligned exactly as old BIOS expects
This MBR is actually better for retro PCs than Windows 10’s MBR.

This solves:
“Missing operating system”
“HDD boot failure”
Boot hangs
CF adapters that mis-handle modern bootloaders

🟦 3. Rufus forces the partition to start at Cylinder 0, Head 1, Sector 1
Modern tools (Disk Management, Linux, GParted) align partitions at:
1 MB boundary
4 KB boundary

Old BIOSes absolutely hate this.
Rufus uses CHS-aligned partitions, which matches:
DOS 3.x / 5 / 6.22
Windows 3.1
386/486 BIOS expectations
XT-IDE fallback logic

This alone fixes a huge number of boot issues.

🟦 4. Rufus generates a FreeDOS boot sector with a correct BPB
Cheap CF cards are often formatted incorrectly or with weird BPB geometry like:
255 heads
63 sectors
fake CHS values
mismatched FAT size
FreeDOS’s boot sector is very compatible and forgiving.
Even if the CHS from the CF-IDE adapter is wrong, FreeDOS still boots.

🟦 5. Rufus clears the “removable media” ambiguity
Even if the CF card reports itself as “removable”, Rufus writes a partition and boot sector that old BIOSes treat the same as a HDD.
This works surprisingly often.

🟦 6. Rufus uses MBR partition scheme, NOT GPT
Modern tools default to GPT.
GPT on a CF card inserted into a 386 is a guaranteed boot failure.
Rufus avoids this.

🟦 7. Rufus writes FreeDOS system files correctly
FreeDOS startup files:
kernel.sys
command.com
are placed exactly where FAT16 expects them.
Compare that to Windows (which cannot SYS a FreeDOS partition) or Linux (which won’t replicate FAT special placement rules).

🟦 8. Rufus ignores most of the CF-card’s weird firmware translation
Cheap CF cards often have strange translation logic:
- fake CHS geometries
- incomplete IDE commands
- buggy LBA reporting
- broken removable bit logic
- non-standard BPB fields
- Rufus bypasses most of this by:
- zeroing the first sectors
- writing a standard DOS layout
- not relying on CF firmware for geometry
- writing FAT16 with a conservative cluster map
This hides the weaknesses of the cheap CF controller.

🟩 Conclusion: Rufus works because it does exactly what a retro BIOS expects
✔ Overwrites MBR
✔ Writes CHS-aligned FAT16
✔ Writes clean boot sector
✔ Creates DOS-compatible BPB
✔ Avoids GPT
✔ Places boot files in DOS-correct layout
✔ Avoids Windows metadata that confuses retro BIOS
✔ Ignores CF firmware quirks

This is why Rufus “magically” makes problematic CF cards bootable.

Downloaded Rufus https://rufus.ie/en/
- Plugged in cf card into in win 10 pc (via usb card reader)
- Opened Rufus
- Select 'freedos' or "ms-dos' as the boot selection
- MBR as partition scheme
- FAT
- The correct cluster size - use recomended

🟦 Key differences: MS-DOS vs FreeDOS in Rufus

🟩 1. FreeDOS uses a more tolerant bootloader
FreeDOS’s boot sector is extremely forgiving when:
- CF card lies about geometry
- CF card uses fake 255/63 translation
- CF adapter misreports CHS
- BIOS INT13h behaves strangely

This makes FreeDOS more reliable on:
- cheap CF cards
- CF-to-IDE adapters
- vintage BIOSes
- portable/embedded CF cards
- MS-DOS is picky about BPB fields and geometry.

🟩 2. FreeDOS supports more modern CF cards
Some modern and cheap CF cards:
- do not support DOS INT13h exactly
- expect LBA only
- use nonstandard BPB values
- use weird CHS translation

MS-DOS bootsector may fail here. FreeDOS usually boots anyway.

Check out my YouTube channel: Retro Erik https://www.youtube.com/c/RetroErik
My collection: https://retro.hageseter.com
X: https://x.com/Retro_Erik

Reply 30 of 34, by PC@LIVE

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Jinxter wrote on 2025-11-16, 21:02:
🟩 Why Rufus + FreeDOS + MBR suddenly makes “bad” CF cards boot Rufus does several important things that most people don’t realiz […]
Show full quote

🟩 Why Rufus + FreeDOS + MBR suddenly makes “bad” CF cards boot
Rufus does several important things that most people don’t realize:
🟦 1. Rufus overwrites the first ~1 MB of the CF card
This includes:
MBR
BPB (boot sector)
Partition table
FAT root
Hidden sectors
OEM metadata
Garbage from previous filesystem
Camera/system blocks
Remnants of GPT/NTFS/exFAT

This is exactly what old BIOSes care about.
A damaged or mismatched boot sector is the most common reason a CF won’t boot on a 386/486 system.

🟦 2. Rufus writes a clean, known-good MBR bootloader
Rufus uses:
a simple, standard MS-DOS-style MBR
a standard INT13h-compatible BPB
a FAT16 partition aligned exactly as old BIOS expects
This MBR is actually better for retro PCs than Windows 10’s MBR.

This solves:
“Missing operating system”
“HDD boot failure”
Boot hangs
CF adapters that mis-handle modern bootloaders

🟦 3. Rufus forces the partition to start at Cylinder 0, Head 1, Sector 1
Modern tools (Disk Management, Linux, GParted) align partitions at:
1 MB boundary
4 KB boundary

Old BIOSes absolutely hate this.
Rufus uses CHS-aligned partitions, which matches:
DOS 3.x / 5 / 6.22
Windows 3.1
386/486 BIOS expectations
XT-IDE fallback logic

This alone fixes a huge number of boot issues.

🟦 4. Rufus generates a FreeDOS boot sector with a correct BPB
Cheap CF cards are often formatted incorrectly or with weird BPB geometry like:
255 heads
63 sectors
fake CHS values
mismatched FAT size
FreeDOS’s boot sector is very compatible and forgiving.
Even if the CHS from the CF-IDE adapter is wrong, FreeDOS still boots.

🟦 5. Rufus clears the “removable media” ambiguity
Even if the CF card reports itself as “removable”, Rufus writes a partition and boot sector that old BIOSes treat the same as a HDD.
This works surprisingly often.

🟦 6. Rufus uses MBR partition scheme, NOT GPT
Modern tools default to GPT.
GPT on a CF card inserted into a 386 is a guaranteed boot failure.
Rufus avoids this.

🟦 7. Rufus writes FreeDOS system files correctly
FreeDOS startup files:
kernel.sys
command.com
are placed exactly where FAT16 expects them.
Compare that to Windows (which cannot SYS a FreeDOS partition) or Linux (which won’t replicate FAT special placement rules).

🟦 8. Rufus ignores most of the CF-card’s weird firmware translation
Cheap CF cards often have strange translation logic:
- fake CHS geometries
- incomplete IDE commands
- buggy LBA reporting
- broken removable bit logic
- non-standard BPB fields
- Rufus bypasses most of this by:
- zeroing the first sectors
- writing a standard DOS layout
- not relying on CF firmware for geometry
- writing FAT16 with a conservative cluster map
This hides the weaknesses of the cheap CF controller.

🟩 Conclusion: Rufus works because it does exactly what a retro BIOS expects
✔ Overwrites MBR
✔ Writes CHS-aligned FAT16
✔ Writes clean boot sector
✔ Creates DOS-compatible BPB
✔ Avoids GPT
✔ Places boot files in DOS-correct layout
✔ Avoids Windows metadata that confuses retro BIOS
✔ Ignores CF firmware quirks

This is why Rufus “magically” makes problematic CF cards bootable.

Downloaded Rufus https://rufus.ie/en/
- Plugged in cf card into in win 10 pc (via usb card reader)
- Opened Rufus
- Select 'freedos' or "ms-dos' as the boot selection
- MBR as partition scheme
- FAT
- The correct cluster size - use recomended

🟦 Key differences: MS-DOS vs FreeDOS in Rufus

🟩 1. FreeDOS uses a more tolerant bootloader
FreeDOS’s boot sector is extremely forgiving when:
- CF card lies about geometry
- CF card uses fake 255/63 translation
- CF adapter misreports CHS
- BIOS INT13h behaves strangely

This makes FreeDOS more reliable on:
- cheap CF cards
- CF-to-IDE adapters
- vintage BIOSes
- portable/embedded CF cards
- MS-DOS is picky about BPB fields and geometry.

🟩 2. FreeDOS supports more modern CF cards
Some modern and cheap CF cards:
- do not support DOS INT13h exactly
- expect LBA only
- use nonstandard BPB values
- use weird CHS translation

MS-DOS bootsector may fail here. FreeDOS usually boots anyway.

Hi, I read what you wrote, I find it very interesting, personally it's been many years since I started doing PC repairs, and here on Vogons, there are almost 1000 post on several motherboards that I repaired or tested.
To be on the subject of CF, until today I have all the CF cards working, but some are fine on PCs like 486 Pentium, while on PCs with old AMI BIOS, of the color type to understand, they do not work, or they work by changing the ISA controller card, so in conclusion sometimes you can immediately make them work, others instead you have to make several attempts.
I've never used FreeDOS, but reading what you write, I think I have to start using it, I have a certain number of PCs from XT up, and lately I've fixed two 486 ISA, here maybe your indications could simplify my work, because in one I will use an IDE CF adapter or an IDE SD, but with the old controllers, I'm almost certain that I would have difficulty using the memory card as an HDD.
I follow your YouTube channel, and I like the videos of motherboard repairs, congratulations.

AMD 286-16 287-10 4MB
AMD 386SX-33 4MB
AMD 386DX-40 Intel 387 8MB
Cyrix 486DLC-40 IIT387-40 8MB
486DX2-66 +many others
P60 48MB
iDX4-100 32MB
AMD 5X86-133 16MB VLB CL5429 2MB
AMD K62+ 550 SOYO 5EMA+ +many others
AST Pentium Pro 200 MHz L2 256KB

Reply 31 of 34, by dukeofurl

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Thanks I'll check out this workflow. I have a 386 with Phoenix bios 1.0 that I've never successfully gotten to work with CF (unless I rely on xt ide bios)

Reply 32 of 34, by douglar

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Jinxter wrote on 2025-11-16, 20:39:
I made this today with some help from ChatGPT. […]
Show full quote

I made this today with some help from ChatGPT.

CompactFlash cards are not real IDE hard drives, even though they can emulate IDE mode. Because of this, retro PCs with old BIOSes often have issues such as:
- “Missing operating system”
- “HDD controller failure”
- System hangs on boot
- Wrong CHS geometry
- CF card detected but not bootable
- Corrupted FAT or unreadable file system
- Removable vs Fixed Disk incompatibility
- Old leftover GPT/NTFS/camera metadata confusing the BIOS

The things listed for you by ChatGPT are mostly BIOS & DOS issues, not Compact flash issues. They exist with both hard drives and Compact Flash devices.

"CompactFlash cards are not real IDE hard drives" is clearly true because Compact Flash devices don't have spinning platters. But CFs are clearly real "ATA" devices, have been around since 1994 with the beginning of the ATA standards, and are as much ATA devices as PATA hard drives built during the same year. In fact, you will likely see more issues if you try to use a hard drive built 10 years after your retro PC than if you use a CF that's 30 years newer. Why? Most of the issues listed can be avoided if use a storage device < 512MB. While new 512MB CF's are still readily available today, finding a reliable hard drive < 512MB is more of a challenge.

There are two CF specific issues to look out for: 1) Installing Windows 2000 or XP on a CF that reports itself as "removable" requires a workaround (2K and XP run fine from such a device, just the installer fails) . 2) some < 1990 IDE controllers were wired differently and are not fully compatible with all ATA devices. Outside of those two things, HD's and CF's face the same compatibility issues.

Reply 33 of 34, by Jinxter

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Here is a screenshot from HDAT2 util showing the summary on the CF card that gave me trouble, and eventually lead me to learning more on the whole problem.
My main reason for using HDAT2 what to read the CHS values, but also check the Signature and Checksum on the card, because ChatGPT said this was important for getting the card to work on non XT-IDE BIOS.
On other cards i have Signature and Checksum is Valid.
HDAT2 needs a 386+ and minimum 6MB ram if you use the floppy-disk release (which creates a ram drive)

Also, thanks for the comments I am sure I have much more to learn.

PS! I did not have XT-IDE BIOS nor did i configure the disk in the PC BIOS. HDD = None in BIOS.

Check out my YouTube channel: Retro Erik https://www.youtube.com/c/RetroErik
My collection: https://retro.hageseter.com
X: https://x.com/Retro_Erik

Reply 34 of 34, by douglar

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Jinxter wrote on 2025-11-17, 15:32:
Here is a screenshot from HDAT2 util showing the summary on the CF card that gave me trouble, and eventually lead me to learning […]
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Here is a screenshot from HDAT2 util showing the summary on the CF card that gave me trouble, and eventually lead me to learning more on the whole problem.
My main reason for using HDAT2 what to read the CHS values, but also check the Signature and Checksum on the card, because ChatGPT said this was important for getting the card to work on non XT-IDE BIOS.
On other cards i have Signature and Checksum is Valid.
HDAT2 needs a 386+ and minimum 6MB ram if you use the floppy-disk release (which creates a ram drive)

Also, thanks for the comments I am sure I have much more to learn.

We have a lot of notes on IDE issues here, although unfortunately, we don't yet have a walk through or troubleshooting flowchart yet. https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Storage

I use HWinfo for DOS to get ATA info from IDE disks. https://www.hwinfo.com/download/ (when loading from floppy on a slower computer, it can take 1-2 minutes to open).