Always dedicated. hardware acceleration , better performance.

If you manage to find a 3dfx voodoo card , that would be the best.

bitzu101 wrote on 2025-10-31, 09:30:

Always dedicated. hardware acceleration , better performance.

If you manage to find a 3dfx voodoo card , that would be the best.

The problem is the HDD, if i'm limited to 4GB or 8GB instead of a 120GB HDD through pci ATA sacrificing the dedicated S3, i don't know what is better.

How have you all configured your systems?

The problem with the graphics controller in the 5598 is not the up to 4MB it steals for its framebuffer memory, but rather the memory bus cycles it constantly steals while driving the ramdac. The higher resolution you are running, the more memory bandwidth it takes away from what would otherwise be exclusively available for cpu and busmasters transferring stuff.

Some sis chipsets have the ability to run in single simm (32bit memory bus) mode, in which mode the integrated controller limits its available resolutions. This is done to keep some memory bandwith open to the system so that it does not come to an almost complete halt, so severe is the impact of this memory bus sharing.

I would rid myself of its burden first thing I do with such a system.

Maybe graphics card and ontrack for large disk support https://www.philscomputerlab.com/ontrack-disk-manager.html

st31276a wrote on 2025-11-15, 13:31:

The problem with the graphics controller in the 5598 is not the up to 4MB it steals for its framebuffer memory, but rather the memory bus cycles it constantly steals while driving the ramdac. The higher resolution you are running, the more memory bandwidth it takes away from what would otherwise be exclusively available for cpu and busmasters transferring stuff.

Some sis chipsets have the ability to run in single simm (32bit memory bus) mode, in which mode the integrated controller limits its available resolutions. This is done to keep some memory bandwith open to the system so that it does not come to an almost complete halt, so severe is the impact of this memory bus sharing.

I would rid myself of its burden first thing I do with such a system.

So, dedicated s3 + 8GB HDD > integrated s3 + HDD 120GB.

Matth79 wrote on 2025-11-15, 15:20:

Maybe graphics card and ontrack for large disk support https://www.philscomputerlab.com/ontrack-disk-manager.html

Okay, it's actually a thing. A few KB's of the 640KB of conventional memory, but you have your big hard drive.

The first time you create a disk with this program in the autoexe.bat, then install the S.O, and then you ad manually the program and the line in the autoexe.bat, in the hdd.

There must be a thread about generic drivers and autoexe for mouse, cd, sound cards, etc. Less than 600KB for dos could cause issues.

Edit: How does this program impact the cpu?.

Depends on the card/chipset. I have an S3 trio that is integrated into the motherboard, it would be easy for someone buy a worse dedicated card in a situation like that. Lots of motherboards have great integrated chips, but some don't. So it depends on the exact motherboard and what it has on it, versus the exact dedicated card and what it has.

Señor Ventura wrote on 2025-11-15, 12:38:

bitzu101 wrote on 2025-10-31, 09:30:

Always dedicated. hardware acceleration , better performance.

If you manage to find a 3dfx voodoo card , that would be the best.

The problem is the HDD, if i'm limited to 4GB or 8GB instead of a 120GB HDD through pci ATA sacrificing the dedicated S3, i don't know what is better.

How have you all configured your systems?

Which motherboard? If there is not patched BIOS file for large HDD support, then maybe BIOS patcher https://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid= … 904&menustate=0 can help?

Is this one of the TX Pro II PC Chips Socket7 motherboards? It has on-board SiS VGA and PCI audio also.

If the onboard VGA has its own memory chips next to it, it is fine. It is likely not the case with a 5598 board.

I would put one of my 6-8GB mechanical jobbies in there, why is such a huge hard disk a priority? No programs that big needing such insane amounts of storage will work great on a socket 7 system anyway.

If I needed space, I would chuck in a 100Mbps pci card and pull whatever is needed over the network.

midicollector wrote on 2025-11-16, 03:51:

Depends on the card/chipset. I have an S3 trio that is integrated into the motherboard,

No you don't, you have an onboard S3 Trio, which is not integrated into the motherboard chipset. That difference matters: your S3 has it's own memory just like a card would so doesn't cost the CPU any memory bandwidth. OP has a SiS 5598 chipset with integrated SIS VGA without its own memory (or memory bus) so memory bandwidth is shared. That has a big impact on performance, and performs a lot worse that a chipset without integrated VGA would with the same SiS VGA on a dedicated card.

But...

One thing OP didn't mention is which OS he's running. If DOS, there's no acceleration going on, no 3D and impact will be limited, a few % at most. If running Windows, particularly with 3D going on, the impact will be huge, at least 25% and possibly up to 50%

Similarly, unless you want to put your entire catalogue of retro games on one machine, 4GB would be more than enough for a DOS system, but Win98 and it's applications could rapidly fill that HDD making a bigger one very nice to have.

Don't tell people they're wrong when they're right.

I just said that it's integrated into the motherboard, which it is. I didn't go into the technical details of how exactly the S3 Trio is integrated into the motherboard. You're welcome to clear up details about the different ways that a chipset could be integrated into a motherboard, but I said very clearly that it depends on the chipset.

If you want to feel superior by contradicting someone, you might want to make sure you understand what they're posting first, because you're clearly in the wrong here.

Ydee wrote on 2025-11-16, 08:14:

Which motherboard? If there is not patched BIOS file for large HDD support, then maybe BIOS patcher https://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid= … 904&menustate=0 can help?

IBM aptiva 2144-351, chipset SIS 5513, but patching the bios sounds dangerous, Is it better than the "ontrack" solution?.

wbahnassi wrote on 2025-11-16, 09:08:

Is this one of the TX Pro II PC Chips Socket7 motherboards? It has on-board SiS VGA and PCI audio also.

No, is not a tower, it works through a riser (that's why i have to choose between dedicated svga or ata card, the voodoo 1 is a must have).

dionb wrote on 2025-11-16, 18:50:

No you don't, you have an onboard S3 Trio, which is not integrated into the motherboard chipset. That difference matters: your S […]
Show full quote

No you don't, you have an onboard S3 Trio, which is not integrated into the motherboard chipset. That difference matters: your S3 has it's own memory just like a card would so doesn't cost the CPU any memory bandwidth. OP has a SiS 5598 chipset with integrated SIS VGA without its own memory (or memory bus) so memory bandwidth is shared. That has a big impact on performance, and performs a lot worse that a chipset without integrated VGA would with the same SiS VGA on a dedicated card.

But...

One thing OP didn't mention is which OS he's running. If DOS, there's no acceleration going on, no 3D and impact will be limited, a few % at most. If running Windows, particularly with 3D going on, the impact will be huge, at least 25% and possibly up to 50%

Similarly, unless you want to put your entire catalogue of retro games on one machine, 4GB would be more than enough for a DOS system, but Win98 and it's applications could rapidly fill that HDD making a bigger one very nice to have.

It is just that SIS, the 5598 one, yes.

I use windows 95 right now, but i will install windows 98 soonly.

My thinking would be what is causing you the most inconvenience, frame rates or hard drive space?

I doubt upgrading to a Trio will make enough of a difference to the games already struggling with the onboard video but maybe it'll make some of those borderline games more pleasant, definitely worth testing out.

I can imagine 8GB being a bit tight on a Win9x box and if you don't want to risk patching the bios which is fair enough I've used OnTrack which works in dos (never tired windows) or removable hard drives, either primary or slave.

chinny22 wrote on 2025-11-17, 02:16:

My thinking would be what is causing you the most inconvenience, frame rates or hard drive space?

I doubt upgrading to a Trio will make enough of a difference to the games already struggling with the onboard video but maybe it'll make some of those borderline games more pleasant, definitely worth testing out.

I can imagine 8GB being a bit tight on a Win9x box and if you don't want to risk patching the bios which is fair enough I've used OnTrack which works in dos (never tired windows) or removable hard drives, either primary or slave.

Probably patching the bios with that link doesn't work and would brick my aptiva (that bios is ibm custom).

"Ondrive" seems to be safer, but i don't know how much cpu it use.

What do you have in 8GB HDD?, Do you need more?.

P.D: What is the difference in terms of perfomance between dedicated and integrated?, Some thread about this?.

(Thank you all for your help).

Señor Ventura wrote on 2025-11-17, 06:21:

[...]

P.D: What is the difference in terms of perfomance between dedicated and integrated?, Some thread about this?.

That rather depends on what you're trying to run on it. With Windows games, impact will usually be severe, but how severe depends on what is bottlenecking your system in a particular game and what settings you're running at.

For reference here are figures I got in some benchmarks 20-odd years ago:
http://dionb.eu/chipset1.html

The most relevant column is probably the P-INT MEM. A 5598 board (PC Chips M537) using its integrated VGA scores 40 points on this synthetic benchmark using EDO or 47 using SDRAM. Add a dedicated VGA card and that jumps to
73 or 78 respectively, so a performance hit of about 40%. If you compare results for the Via MVP4, the other chipset I benched with integrated VGA, you'll see very similar SDRAM scores (in fact the older SiS 5598 scores better than the newer MVP4): this is not a chipset-specific issue but an inevitable result of using integrated VGA on a platform with insufficient bandwidth to feed both at the same time (I would sorely have liked to bench an ALi Aladdin 7 dual-channel SDRAM board, but was never able to source one). Or put another way, a P200 with integrated VGA will perform similarly to a P120 with dedicated VGA in games that are simultaneously CPU and VGA intensive.

Now, this benchmark specifically tests memory bandwidth, which is the Achilles' heel of integrated chipsets, so this is a worst-case scenario. However when playing games that stress CPU and VGA performance at the same time, you will come close to this. If a game is only really stressing one of the two, the impact will be smaller. You have the hardware, do your own benchmark if you want to be sure with your software in your situations.

Personally, I'd be far more concerned about memory bandwidth than HDD size, particularly when the larger HDD is totally not period correct. In 1998 when most 5598 systems were sold, 8GB was a very large HDD. But in 1998 already people knew using a dedicated VGA card would hugely improve performance. Although tbh, a system with 5598 isn't a performance system anyway: if I wanted a fast So7 system, I'd not base it on that chipset anyway, so I'd probably leave the 5598 in its vanilla state.

Señor Ventura wrote on 2025-11-17, 01:44:

Ydee wrote on 2025-11-16, 08:14:

Which motherboard? If there is not patched BIOS file for large HDD support, then maybe BIOS patcher https://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid= … 904&menustate=0 can help?

IBM aptiva 2144-351, chipset SIS 5513, but patching the bios sounds dangerous, Is it better than the "ontrack" solution?.

No, in this case, the BIOS patcher doesn't help, it's designed for standard versions of Award BIOSes, and IBM certainly has its own customized ones.

Wait a minute... are we talking about SiS 5511/2/3 + 6202 (the very first 'integrated' UMA chipset), or 5598 as mentioned in OP?

If 551x, the impact of UMA is bigger, as it has a rather slow EDO memory controller - and the performance of the 6202 is quite a bit slower than the 6326 integrated in the 5598, so the added value of a decent PCI card would be greater.

I would wager that the performance of that mandatory voodoo running 3dfx stuff would rise when you plug in a dedicated 2d card.

When the voodoo switches over to itself, the 2d card still shows a frozen image of what was on the screen before the game initialized. It still refreshes that image, the voodoo just cuts off that signal so that it does not go to the screen.

Refreshing a static image is what mostly steals the memory bandwidth. The higher the resolution, refresh rate and colour depth the worse it gets.

Stealing cpu memory bandwidth robs cpu performance, as the cpu has to stall until it can get access to the memory bus again. Old voodoos especially like fast cpu's, since they don't do hardware triangle setup. They are basically fast hardware texture painters.

dionb wrote on 2025-11-17, 13:43:

Wait a minute... are we talking about SiS 5511/2/3 + 6202 (the very first 'integrated' UMA chipset), or 5598 as mentioned in OP?

If 551x, the impact of UMA is bigger, as it has a rather slow EDO memory controller - and the performance of the 6202 is quite a bit slower than the 6326 integrated in the 5598, so the added value of a decent PCI card would be greater.

SIS 5598 is the integrated svga, and SIS 5513 is the motherboard's chipset.

Matth79 wrote on 2025-11-15, 15:20:

Maybe graphics card and ontrack for large disk support https://www.philscomputerlab.com/ontrack-disk-manager.html

Sorry for quoting you again... i have the doubt, What is the limit using big hard drives?.

My options are using that "ontrack" software, or an 8GB 2,5" hard drive through an adapter, What kind of adapter must i get to use this 2,5" hdd?.