VOGONS


Reply 120 of 147, by douglar

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wondow wrote on 2025-12-09, 15:42:

If I understand correctly your message, even on a slow 386sx (16 or 25), Emm386 would be faster? It was my understanding that for slow CPU, EMS is the preferable way, as it is much faster than XMS. The only advantage would be to stay on Real mode for maximum compatibility?

I was trying to say that if you are using an 8 Mhz computer, running your programs from memory on an ISA card instead of memory directly attached to your motherboard chipset has a performance hit, but it is relatively small. Mainboard memory will probably have 0-2 wait states while ISA memory cards will usually have 3-5 wait stats. There is overhead going out to an ISA card. A rough comparison is that your 8 Mhz computer will perform like a 6Mhz computer when running from ISA memory. Not ideal, but not fatal.

But if you are using a 16Mhz computer, the performance hit is more noticeable. Mainboard memory access is probably still < 3 wait states, but ISA memory access is now 8-10 CPU waits. A rough comparison is that your 16 Mhz computer will feel like an 8 Mhz computer if you are running programs from an ISA memory card. You will feel it. So maybe ISA memory is better than nothing if your workload really needs the ram, but you certainly wouldn't want to use ISA memory if you could in anyway get the same functionality from mainboard memory. And the problem just gets worse with faster systems that have memory caches, because ISA memory is not uncacheable.

Now if you have to stay in real mode, then an EMS card might be the only option if you don't have a system board with a chipset that supports EMS from mainboard memory.

Reply 121 of 147, by Marco

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Hello all,

To explain a bit my objective:

improve performance under ram intensive OSs like windows 98

How:
I hope to achieve the same bandwidth with that memory board as with my video card which is around 8mb/s throuput (speedsys vesa speed / other benchmarks). This would the 2x-4x as high as via HDD/CF swapping which reaches around 4mb in best case (PIO based max buffered linear throuput). Not to talk about dramatically lower Ramdom access times or less cpu usage / interruptions.

So ideally my windows 98 would fully use fast onboard memory until these 16mb are full and will then use the EMS memory of the extension card. Scenarios where my HDD will be used for swapping at the moment would be 100%-200% faster.

That is at least what I would like to achieve.

I fully understand that this whole objective cannot be reached in case windows will always (!) jump between the available adress spaces so that overall performance will decrease on each scenario as it will mix-use (random) onboard ram and extension Ems always.

Nice weekend and regards.

1) VLSI SCAMP 311 | 386SX25@TI486SXLC2-50@63 | 16MB | CL-GD5434 | CT2830| SCC-1 | MT32 | WDC160GB/7200/8MB | Fast-SCSI AHA 1542CF + BlueSCSI v2/15k U320
2) SIS486 | 486DX/2 66(@80) | 32MB | TGUI9440 | LAPC-I

Reply 122 of 147, by megatron-uk

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Using one of these ISA memory boards will be deathly slow on a 386 (SX I assume, from your 16mb comment?).

These are mainly designed for XT machines, with some being useful on an AT. They will have substantial performance drawbacks on a 386 class machine.

Windows 98 on such a machine would be dreadful, I am wondering why choose such a 'heavy' OS for such a relatively underpowered processor.

My collection database and technical wiki:
https://www.target-earth.net

Reply 123 of 147, by Marco

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Thank you. It is a sx Board with 486 CPU. It is as usual only for retro testing / experience purpose. Again, I know it is slower. I tried to explain my „hopes/expectations“ in detail before.

Regards

1) VLSI SCAMP 311 | 386SX25@TI486SXLC2-50@63 | 16MB | CL-GD5434 | CT2830| SCC-1 | MT32 | WDC160GB/7200/8MB | Fast-SCSI AHA 1542CF + BlueSCSI v2/15k U320
2) SIS486 | 486DX/2 66(@80) | 32MB | TGUI9440 | LAPC-I

Reply 124 of 147, by douglar

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Marco wrote on 2025-12-13, 08:33:

Thank you. It is a sx Board with 486 CPU. It is as usual only for retro testing / experience purpose. Again, I know it is slower. I tried to explain my „hopes/expectations“ in detail before.

Regards

It’s going to disappoint. ISA ram cannot be cached by the CPU or the motherboard. Your 486 will run like a 10mhz 286 more or less.

Win98 min requirements are 486-66 w/ 16 MB, but a Pentium 90 with 24MB is recommended. You can install it on less than the min reqs using setup command line switches, but at best it’s a curiosity. It’s not pleasant when you try to run it using 1/3 the recommended cpu and ram.

If you only have 8MB ram and want to run win32 programs, stick with Win95b. You clear the recommended config there.

If you are going for the slowest possible Win98 build, have fun, but it’s going to take some luck to find a 486 bios that detects ISA ram. And while swapping to disk might be slow, it could very well be faster than isa ram on a 486 because the cpu will stll be able to use the onchip cache once the pages are swapped. The 486 is going to be twiddling its thumbs for like 15+ cpu cycles every time it tries to access memory or read the next instruction over an ISA bus.

Reply 125 of 147, by Marco

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Thanks a lot. Sounds understandable. I will then skip this exercise.

Thanks again

1) VLSI SCAMP 311 | 386SX25@TI486SXLC2-50@63 | 16MB | CL-GD5434 | CT2830| SCC-1 | MT32 | WDC160GB/7200/8MB | Fast-SCSI AHA 1542CF + BlueSCSI v2/15k U320
2) SIS486 | 486DX/2 66(@80) | 32MB | TGUI9440 | LAPC-I

Reply 126 of 147, by Marco

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Another idea that came to mind:

To avoid that the system will use the overall ram at an overall low speed:

- configure expansion card to provide Ems only
- load ramdrive /E occupying whole Ems
- put w95 swap onto ramdrive

Maybe by this you can prevent that the system will use onboard and expansion ram mixed but increase swap performance.

Still unclear whether a 16mb limited onboard SX will recognize the additional ram. But via framing I could imagine that it will work.

Maybe difficult as Win95 doesn’t like memory managers to be loaded upfront (in caseyou need an Ems driver for the expansion cards?)

Any thoughts?

Update:

Wow had some nice „discussion“ with chatGPT.

Output:
- area not catchable (already mentioned here by Douglar)
- ramdrive uses realmode thus switching needed for each IO

I think question answered 😀

1) VLSI SCAMP 311 | 386SX25@TI486SXLC2-50@63 | 16MB | CL-GD5434 | CT2830| SCC-1 | MT32 | WDC160GB/7200/8MB | Fast-SCSI AHA 1542CF + BlueSCSI v2/15k U320
2) SIS486 | 486DX/2 66(@80) | 32MB | TGUI9440 | LAPC-I

Reply 127 of 147, by wierd_w

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You will need an emm that windows likes. Which are rare.

Rather, if you know the paging mechanism, a wholly independent disk driver that does not hook ems at all would be much better.

Reply 128 of 147, by Gurbymurble

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Predator99 wrote on 2025-11-23, 09:22:

Suntek MEMOPLUS

SW1 corresponds exactly to the Settings of the SW2 of the DFI AT RAMBANK. For a System with 1 MB onboard you need i.e. a starting adress of 1.375M which is

Hello Predator99.
You seem to be the only person in the world that has an info on this card!
I have two of these cards but I need to put them into IBM AT computers running 640k of ram each.

Would it be possible for you to share the user manual?
Also, not sure if the software is public use or not... but if it is legit to do so I would like to have access to that too.

Thanks!

Reply 129 of 147, by MarmotaArmy

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Gurbymurble wrote on 2026-01-21, 13:46:
Hello Predator99. You seem to be the only person in the world that has an info on this card! I have two of these cards but I nee […]
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Predator99 wrote on 2025-11-23, 09:22:

Suntek MEMOPLUS

SW1 corresponds exactly to the Settings of the SW2 of the DFI AT RAMBANK. For a System with 1 MB onboard you need i.e. a starting adress of 1.375M which is

Hello Predator99.
You seem to be the only person in the world that has an info on this card!
I have two of these cards but I need to put them into IBM AT computers running 640k of ram each.

Would it be possible for you to share the user manual?
Also, not sure if the software is public use or not... but if it is legit to do so I would like to have access to that too.

Thanks!

I support this request! , Just yesterday I got one of these cards, it came in a Olivetti M250 286 Pc. I don't know anything about it , don't know if it uses specialized drivers either.
Please predator share the knowledge!

Reply 130 of 147, by Predator99

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Gurbymurble wrote on 2026-01-21, 13:46:
Hello Predator99. You seem to be the only person in the world that has an info on this card! I have two of these cards but I nee […]
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Predator99 wrote on 2025-11-23, 09:22:

Suntek MEMOPLUS

SW1 corresponds exactly to the Settings of the SW2 of the DFI AT RAMBANK. For a System with 1 MB onboard you need i.e. a starting adress of 1.375M which is

Hello Predator99.
You seem to be the only person in the world that has an info on this card!
I have two of these cards but I need to put them into IBM AT computers running 640k of ram each.

Would it be possible for you to share the user manual?
Also, not sure if the software is public use or not... but if it is legit to do so I would like to have access to that too.

Thanks!

As described:

With 640kb onboard you need a starting address 1 MB:
SW1: OFF OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF ON
SW2: OFF ON OFF ON OFF OFF ON ON
Verify the setting by running testext.exe

I dont have any manual 😉

Reply 131 of 147, by MarmotaArmy

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Predator99 wrote on 2026-01-21, 14:11:
As described: […]
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Gurbymurble wrote on 2026-01-21, 13:46:
Hello Predator99. You seem to be the only person in the world that has an info on this card! I have two of these cards but I nee […]
Show full quote
Predator99 wrote on 2025-11-23, 09:22:

Suntek MEMOPLUS

SW1 corresponds exactly to the Settings of the SW2 of the DFI AT RAMBANK. For a System with 1 MB onboard you need i.e. a starting adress of 1.375M which is

Hello Predator99.
You seem to be the only person in the world that has an info on this card!
I have two of these cards but I need to put them into IBM AT computers running 640k of ram each.

Would it be possible for you to share the user manual?
Also, not sure if the software is public use or not... but if it is legit to do so I would like to have access to that too.

Thanks!

As described:

With 640kb onboard you need a starting address 1 MB:
SW1: OFF OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF ON
SW2: OFF ON OFF ON OFF OFF ON ON
Verify the setting by running testext.exe

I dont have any manual 😉

As for drivers we just use himem.sys or we need a specific driver?

My SW1 is like your example
SW2 : OFF ON OFF ON ON ON ON ON

Reply 132 of 147, by Predator99

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If the card configuration is correct the RAM will be detected by the BIOS and is displayed as available RAM during the RAM-check.

And it can be configured as XMS with himem.sys, yes.

If you are unsure about your config run ...
TESTEXT 16384
... and you will see whats wrong.

Reply 133 of 147, by MarmotaArmy

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Thanks, I see a challenging night ahead

Reply 134 of 147, by Gurbymurble

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[/quote]
As described:

With 640kb onboard you need a starting address 1 MB:
SW1: OFF OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF ON
SW2: OFF ON OFF ON OFF OFF ON ON
Verify the setting by running testext.exe

I dont have any manual 😉
[/quote]

I was mistaken. My AT computers only have 512K installed.
Are the above settings still correct?
I used these settings and it indeed started counting above 512 but it stopped on a parity error.
I will have to check all the chips.
Do you know what settings are for each individual bank of ram installed on the expansion card?
It would be helpful for me to only have to populate one bank to test the chips by trial and error.

Thanks again!

Reply 135 of 147, by Predator99

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512 kb should be
SW1: OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF

as written, run...
TESTEXT 16384
...it will tell you if everything is correct and you can also find out which bit/IC is not working.

Reply 136 of 147, by MarmotaArmy

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Predator99 wrote on 2026-01-21, 18:43:
512 kb should be SW1: OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF […]
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512 kb should be
SW1: OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF

as written, run...
TESTEXT 16384
...it will tell you if everything is correct and you can also find out which bit/IC is not working.

Predator , I was reading the DFI Rambank manual and in page 3-14 , Example 1 it's about expanding 512K base ram to 640. This should be possible with the Memoplus too?

Reply 137 of 147, by Predator99

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I dont know...try it, you cannot damage anything 😉

If you 1st like to check if your card is OK, set the starting adress to 2MB or so and run TESTEXT. If all is OK you can try all settings and add here what you find out to get it running in your system 😉

Reply 138 of 147, by Gurbymurble

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Predator99 wrote on 2026-01-21, 18:43:
512 kb should be SW1: OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF […]
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512 kb should be
SW1: OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF

as written, run...
TESTEXT 16384
...it will tell you if everything is correct and you can also find out which bit/IC is not working.

Thanks Predator.

Here's new info I found that may be helpful for others as well.
I have a card with one meg installed. I set IBM AT CMOS to 512 base and 1024 extended memory.
I tried the above for 512k base system.
The computer counted all the memory with no issues but complained about memory size error even though the right amount is specified in the cmos.

When i tried the settings you specified for 640k:
"With 640kb onboard you need a starting address 1 MB:
SW1: OFF OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF ON"

The computer counted the ram fine and did not give any errors and booted fine.

The card came with 1 meg installed and switch 2 settings are as follows:
on off off on off on on on
Hopefully that info will be helpful for others

I will work on identifying my bad chips in the 2 meg card later.
My machine does not know what TESTEXT is. I will have to find that.

Reply 139 of 147, by MarmotaArmy

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TESTEXT is a program that predator linked in the first post of this thread