dukeofurl wrote on Yesterday, 15:51:

Even if I bought some kind of black tower windows xp era thing, pairing it with a beige keyboard and beige rectangular CRT that maxes out at 640x480 or 800x600 resolution would feel weird to me and I wouldn't enjoy the setup as much, even if it would all technically function together, and I could run more demanding software with the later era PC.

I can resonate with this statement. Yeah we can make fun of the Packard Bell and Gateway Era, but I think the later sentence is correct.

A similar feeling I have about a 386/486 era PC. Versatility is something important to me: if I'm going to bother with a say, 486DX4-66, a 5.25" 1.2MB drive, 3.5" drive, CD drive, a "reasonably decent" GFX and sound cards are a must. Oh sure I have no use for a 5.25" drive, but ... what if one came along?

My original plan was to only have one retro computer, a Pentium III, thinking that'd cover everything pretty well. While it does, it's all the little stipulations and variations similar to the ones you mentioned for Macs that inevitably pulled me into putting together more machines. If you want max hardware versatility while also keeping within a degree of authenticity, then yeah a 486 or also the classic Pentium (or AMD equivalents) is a pretty solid choice.

In my personal opinion though, since Macs are your forte, a retro PC that covers 1995-2000 would be a more exciting experience since I feel like that's when they differed the most (and also a 3D video card for let's say a PowerMac is insanely expensive compared to their PC equivalent). I also like versatility which is why for the PIII I went with a 440BX motherboard since they typically have an AGP slot, PCI slots, and one or two (or three) ISA slots.

Mk.558 wrote on Yesterday, 02:07:

I'm a Mac user, have been for a long time, so hopefully the analogy will be picked up. […]
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I'm a Mac user, have been for a long time, so hopefully the analogy will be picked up.

It's my opinion that when it comes to 68K processors, if it doesn't boot System 6 or earlier, it has less value than if it otherwise did. For example, a Quadra 800 can't boot System 6, but it doesn't do anything that a PowerPC 601 like a 7100 or 8100 can do as well, and the 8100 will be faster. We can extend that further: why bother with a PPC 601 when you can have a 603e? Forget that, 604 is more. Ahhh but the G3 is right here, and those handle Mac OS 8 or 9 just fine too. See where I'm going? There isn't much unique that you can do on a Quadra 800 that you can't do on a Power Macintosh G3 300MHz or something.

For this thread, I'm curious likewise as to the value of 80286, 80386 and 80486 in a similar fashion. You could run Windows on a 386, but you probably won't want to, so DOS it is. But why bother with DOS on a 386 when you can also do DOS on a 486? Pentium I also does DOS fine too...which you could get a Pentium II and do it faster -- or just skip right to a Pentium III.

Maybe it's ignorance. But as far as I can tell, unless it's the really old games that relied on CPU timings and stuff, most of the time it doesn't matter too much?

My view is that it's about memories and identity.

My collection mirrors my identity.

My identity is the sum of my memories.

Many of my memories are triggered by AGP stuff because I was an active tinkerer for most of the AGP-era, played PC games and worked in niche stores like CeX. My more serious growth memories are triggered by Apple because the adults around had a Mac LC-II, I owned an iMac G3, my most transformative qualification was done on a PowerMac G5, and my most prestigious qualification was done on a MacBook Air. My earlier childhood memories are triggered by the Commodore brand because I learned to programme on a Commodore, and I have a desire to completely bastardise an IBM XT case because those trigger some of my more dysfunctional high school memories.

Our actual collections are not the exact same distinct items we once used - they are instead current day objects that are associated with our memories. But identity is more than memories. My AGP collection includes cards that remind me of aspirations - and aspirations did not accommodate cut down versions even if I owned a cut down card! So, Quadro 800 is actually something that could appear in my collection precisely because a Quadro 800 was aspirational when the actual LC-II used by adults around me was featuring in new memories of home and family.

Where you ask, “What can this machine do that another cannot?” I ask, “What does this machine represent that another cannot?”

But your question is not irrelevant to me because where my memories are triggered only by software, that is when my thought process shifts closer to your question.

And, following on from my last post there is actually a third category of machine.

• Cat 1: What I actually had.
• Cat 2: What I aspired to have.
• Cat 3: Narrative repair.

My Cat 1 was a Socket 7 P200MMX. That became a Super Socket 7 P200MMX @ 250MHz + Banshee. That became Super Socket 7 K6-2 + Radeon. That became Socket A Duron + Radeon. So my Cat 1 machine is a living set of components carrying through from one generation to the next. Was that many PCs, or one PC continuously changing?

What happened next is that I was separated from my computer(s), and while I was away it appears my Duron tower was stolen. During my road trip to collect my old cases I purchased an AthlonXP - partly because it was below market value, partly because it was what I had once aspired to own - so I acquired it with the expectation that it would be a more dispensable Cat 2.

But the twist is, that Cat 2 Socket A AthlonXP is now also a proxy for my lost Cat 1 Socket A Duron - that makes it something else, or Cat 3.

My PC story continued with the next real Cat 1 being an Athlon64 associated with real memories, whereas the real Cat 3 repair provided by the AthlonXP is sadder and quieter and more personal.

I get it. It depends how much you are into retro hardware too yeah?

For now I'm pretty content with just two vintage Macs, although this Power Mac ... let's see, it doesn't have Spindler Plastic, seems fairly reliable, is clean, everything works (for now), ... I can't really fault it. Well, it does have some Spindler Plastic, it's in places where if it broke (and it has) it isn't a big deal. 1995 era machines were hit hard by the Spindler Disease and staying away from those is a priority. Not only do they not do anything I can't do on my Mac mini G4, they are uninteresting. Just like those Gateway 2000 computers. Okay nowadays we can pick out ones to remember the era, but nobody's pretending they aren't rubbish, because they are.

I'd be looking at playing mid 1990's to early 2000s games, like SimCopter, Outlaws, ... stuff like that. I don't think recall ever playing a DOS game in the '90s.

Mk.558 wrote on Yesterday, 23:38:

I get it. It depends how much you are into retro hardware too yeah?

Yes. Some people collect teddy bears - and I don't need to understand their world to understand they have a different identity forged by different memories.

And, maybe someone collects Spindlers..

I gotta be honest, I think this hobby, at least for the period before the 2000s, is becoming less and less financially viable to stick to period correct. Prices are becoming too high IMHO, and some hardware of that era is failing now. "Retro rockets" and emulation will take over from period correct builds. Pentium 4 and above are fairly affordable still. Especially socket 775.

A long time ago the retro community began steering away from all period correct parts. Gotek floppy emulators, CF and SD cards as storage, IDE to SATA converters, XT-IDE, LCD screens, modern ISA soundcards (adlib clones, PicoGUS, Orpheus II). The latest things are optical drive emulators and even ROM BIOS emulators. You can even buy gadgets that are supposed to sound like hard drive activity.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 05:07:

I gotta be honest, I think this hobby, at least for the period before the 2000s, is becoming less and less financially viable to stick to period correct. Prices are becoming too high IMHO, and some hardware of that era is failing now. "Retro rockets" and emulation will take over from period correct builds. Pentium 4 and above are fairly affordable still. Especially socket 775.

A long time ago the retro community began steering away from all period correct parts. Gotek floppy emulators, CF and SD cards as storage, IDE to SATA converters, XT-IDE, LCD screens, modern ISA soundcards (adlib clones, PicoGUS, Orpheus II). The latest things are optical drive emulators and even ROM BIOS emulators. You can even buy gadgets that are supposed to sound like hard drive activity.

What you just said touches on my deeper interest in people:

Some memories are tactile because they connect with you doing something. Other memories are more visual because they connect with you seeing someone else do something.

It follows that handling optical disks will be critically important to some collectors, and completely expendable among other collectors - it all depends on what role that person had when their original memories were created.

The unexpected self-observation about my own behaviour is that optical disks are valuable for me even though they frustrate me! It's part of my identity to use the CDs and DVDs. Ironically, I did have some pirated games - but my memories included: working at CeX where CDs were part-exchanged, pre-ordering titles from developers I followed, enjoying the immersion of redbook audio on my surround sound audio.

For me, having the full retail CD means more to me than simply having the game installed. In contrast, my younger brother simply double clicked icons on a network drive to launch various games with a no-CD patch. And, despite him enjoying the exact same games at the exact same time, he has zero interest in retro computing!

So the value of "period correctness" depends on whether our memories are connected to our actions and efforts, or just outcomes.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 05:07:

A long time ago the retro community began steering away from all period correct parts.
Gotek floppy emulators, CF and SD cards as storage, IDE to SATA converters, XT-IDE, LCD screens, modern ISA soundcards (adlib clones, PicoGUS, Orpheus II).
The latest things are optical drive emulators and even ROM BIOS emulators. You can even buy gadgets that are supposed to sound like hard drive activity.

But there are several nuances, too. There are AdLib clones and AdLib replicas, for example.
The replicas are using the real old tech and are nearly indistinguishable from"originals".
And then there are emulation projects, such as PicoGUS, of course.
Which I personally try to avoid, because I want real hardware in my hardware projects.
I love emulation, really, but if I need emulation I rather decide to use a fine emulator.

The there's storage. SD/TF an MMC cards are fairly new, but other flash types are period-correct.
CF cards, DOMs and DOCs existed in the 90s. I have internet set-top boxes that have them inside and run DOS (ca. 16 to 64 MB).
Also, the hard disk always came in different forms. Even in the 1980s, some PC emulators on the Amiga used hard files to simulate a PC's HDD.

LCD screens existed since the 1980s, but mostly on laptops and portables.
My Compaq SLT 286 was from 1988 and had a 640x480 pixel VGA screen, for example.
DOS games usually expect a 4:3 CRT color monitor with a poor dot pitch and a screen mask.

IDE to SATA converters are protocol converters and not so much emulation in a narrow sense, I think.
Early SCSI drives used ESDI HDDs with a converter board, for example.

A valid point are drive emulators for removable media, such as Goteks.
However, I think that DOS or Amiga fans don't substitute real floppy drives for Goteks.
They rather keep the real drives and floppies around for special occations and use the Goteks as an addition, as a "nice to have" kind of extra.

Jo22 wrote on Today, 09:04:

But there are several nuances, too. There are AdLib clones and AdLib replicas, for example. The replicas are using the real old […]
Show full quote

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 05:07:

A long time ago the retro community began steering away from all period correct parts.
Gotek floppy emulators, CF and SD cards as storage, IDE to SATA converters, XT-IDE, LCD screens, modern ISA soundcards (adlib clones, PicoGUS, Orpheus II).
The latest things are optical drive emulators and even ROM BIOS emulators. You can even buy gadgets that are supposed to sound like hard drive activity.

But there are several nuances, too. There are AdLib clones and AdLib replicas, for example.
The replicas are using the real old tech and are nearly indistinguishable from"originals".
And then there are emulation projects, such as PicoGUS, of course.
Which I personally try to avoid, because I want real hardware in my hardware projects.
I love emulation, really, but if I need emulation I rather decide to use a fine emulator.

The there's storage. SD/TF an MMC cards are fairly new, but other flash types are period-correct.
CF cards, DOMs and DOCs existed in the 90s. I have internet set-top boxes that have them inside and run DOS (ca. 16 to 64 MB).
Also, the hard disk always came in different forms. Even in the 1980s, some PC emulators on the Amiga used hard files to simulate a PC's HDD.

LCD screens existed since the 1980s, but mostly on laptops and portables.
My Compaq SLT 286 was from 1988 and had a 640x480 pixel VGA screen, for example.
DOS games usually expect a 4:3 CRT color monitor with a poor dot pitch and a screen mask.

IDE to SATA converters are protocol converters and not so much emulation in a narrow sense, I think.
Early SCSI drives used ESDI HDDs with a converter board, for example.

A valid point are drive emulators for removable media, such as Goteks.
However, I think that DOS or Amiga fans don't substitute real floppy drives for Goteks.
They rather keep the real drives and floppies around for special occations and use the Goteks as an addition, as a "nice to have" kind of extra.

Other flash types may have existed in the period, but they were not in use by home PCs really.

I actually have 3 goteks, but so far I haven't used them. Honestly, I rarely use floppy disks and, when I do, it is mostly just for data transfer of some small files. For that purpose, I am not sure that the gotek makes sense. The failure rate of floppy disks though, is rather annoying.

MattRocks wrote on Today, 08:15:

For me, having the full retail CD means more to me than simply having the game installed. In contrast, my younger brother simply double clicked icons on a network drive to launch various games with a no-CD patch. And, despite him enjoying the exact same games at the exact same time, he has zero interest in retro computing!

So the value of "period correctness" depends on whether our memories are connected to our actions and efforts, or just outcomes.

I am the same. I like tactile nature of CDs and floppies. Having said that though, both of my quad speed CD-ROM drives have issues reading disks now. The other drives I have are much louder, due to high rotation speed. I will have to investigate CDBeQuiet, as it is quite disturbing to use a fast drive when you are playing a game that streams off it.

Jo22 wrote on Today, 09:04:

I think that DOS or Amiga fans don't substitute real floppy drives for Goteks.
They rather keep the real drives and floppies around for special occations and use the Goteks as an addition, as a "nice to have" kind of extra.

If you are trying to accomplish something that uses a floppy on a regular basis other than making floppy noises at boot time, you probably want a gotek w/ flash floppy. You can always leave the screws out for a quick swap to a real floppy if the “true fan retro police” come for an inspection.

Jo22 wrote on Today, 09:04:

Even in the 1980s, some PC emulators on the Amiga used hard files to simulate a PC's HDD.

I didn't know that, but it resonates with me.

I remember using RAM disks on Win9x, and retro software from Win3x on Win9x - both approaches served the purpose of not waiting on the slow magnetic HDD.

So, in my ~1999 recollections everything was reacting very fast. Hence, SSD speed during desktop clicks does not feel wrong to me. But, during Windows boot an SSD does feel wrong because I'm supposed to be boiling the kettle in the HDD delay - and maybe that is why I have a kettle in my loft room?!

Jo22 wrote on Today, 09:04:

LCD screens existed since the 1980s, but mostly on laptops and portables.

My LCD vs CRT argument is well documented. By ~1999 I hated CRTs and it does not feel alien to me to use an LCD because I was an early adopter (what was then called a CRT replacement), but I really must recover my first LCD so that I can see the differences between it's performance and newer 4:3 LCD performances.

For this thread, I'm curious likewise as to the value of 80286, 80386 and 80486 

so what about the Quadra 700. This was an exceptional machine, way ahead of its time and often (especially if complete and in good shape) can get very expensive today.

In the x86 world, it is not the value of the processor, but the value of the period correct machine (Macs are probably always more ore less period correct ?)You can find any afformentioned cpus for cheap, but to find a complete machine of the correct time gets harder and harder. And the charm of the old machines is not the speed, but the fact that it still works in the way as originally intended and was jaw dropping cutting edge not that long ago. Because why are some people still interested in steam trains., even today when every other modern railway brings you faster from A to B?

Aui wrote on Today, 13:56:

... why are some people still interested in steam trains., even today when every other modern railway brings you faster from A to B?

I'd say they are still connecting memories. It might be happy memories attending a show that featured steam engines (and probably something more personal than just being there) - something like that but everyone has different histories and feels meanings that are triggered by different types of objects even if they can't fully explain what the associations are.

In comparison we are very fortunate because our particular "hobby" is well provisioned by almost every household having had multiple relevant PCs, and only a few households producing .. whatever we are. Do we have a collective name?

NeoG_ wrote on Yesterday, 04:55:

Phil calls it the "136 in 1 Pentium MMX Project"

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/136-in-1-pentium-mmx.html

While I like Phil's channel and the videos he produces, I've always felt this particular video title is misleading.

While the Pentium MMX does have a number of good throttling options, changing FSB and multiplier settings via jumper motherboards isn't that practical for daily use. Even cache disabling in BIOS isn't the most convenient.

That title has always struck me as being click-baity.

MattRocks wrote on Today, 08:15:

So the value of "period correctness" depends on whether our memories are connected to our actions and efforts, or just outcomes.

I think it can be a mix of both.

Just for myself I enjoy both tinkering with authentic retro hardware, including things I never owned but rather read about in magazines or catalogs.

On the other hand, there is a convenience factor of just loading emulators on a modern PC to play retro games.

And then there is hybrid approaches, for example my "all-in-one" Pentium 4 build which provides some of the retro experience (authentic operating systems, CRT display, etc.), while also utilizing some modern technologies for convenience.

Shponglefan wrote on Today, 15:53:

On the other hand, there is a convenience factor of just loading emulators on a modern PC to play retro games.

I tried that and it just wasn't the same. There is something about getting comfortable in front of a full screen size - drinks and snacks ready - before immersing into the game with the PC as the tool that you are reliant on (jumper settings, voltage, heat, etc.) and doing all of that now reactivates the memories of doing all of that then. The act reconnects the old person to their kid experiences.

Emulation breaks it for me. The game opens faster than you can ready yourself. You're questioning everything because the timings feel wrong - the i7 laptop isn't sweating, but there is an emulator configuration to think about. It takes one round until cleaning the bathroom feels more rewarding than watching a reproduction of something originally designed for.. kids 😉

MattRocks wrote on Today, 16:05:

I tried that and it just wasn't the same. There is something about getting comfortable in front of a full screen size - drinks and snacks ready - before immersing into the game with the PC as the tool that you are reliant on (jumper settings, voltage, heat, etc.) and doing all of that now reactivates the memories of doing all of that then. The act reconnects the old person to their kid experiences.

Oh I agree, there is definitely some visceral about running on original, bare metal hardware that can't be recreated with modern emulation.

Jo22 wrote on Yesterday, 03:49:

Anyway, what differs more is the architecture of the mainboard, the chipset, maybe. 286/386/486 are clean PC/AT platforms with I […]
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Anyway, what differs more is the architecture of the mainboard, the chipset, maybe.
286/386/486 are clean PC/AT platforms with ISA bus and no Plug&Play and no advanced features such as USB, PCI, AGP or ACPI, APIC (586+ CPU).
This means that there are no newfangled things in the 640KB-1MB area, no unwanted ROMs.
Without ACPI, the IRQ 2/9 remains unused and a vintage network card or an MPU-401 can use that IRQ.
Since it's an ISA or VLB system, likely, the installed graphics cards are old enough to be still truely VGA at the silicon level.
The models are being recognized by the games or applications directly.
Trident 8900, Tseng ET-4000, WDC 90C00, Cirrus Logic etc.

Just to nitpick, some 486 chipsets have PCI and support Plug&Play as well. 😀