appiah4 wrote on 2026-04-09, 07:37:

firage wrote on 2026-04-08, 17:56:

A flexible 486 can do a lot in the DOS era, though not quite everything the right Pentium can. You do need flexible designs that can slow down, either way. And the thing is that one system never does everything. You can only use so many graphics cards and sound cards in one. What about Win 3.1x, Win9x, late Win9x? Maybe you want a CRT monitor for some era of games, vintage controllers, etc.

True, but in order to achieve this I built 6 different PCs, only 2 of which I actually have the room to use at one time, have a very significant overlap and only differentiate from each other in very fringe aspects. At the end of the day, if you want to be thorough, yes, by all means do this. I've done this, and found very little benefit and a lot of frustration while trying to store, shuffle and service each of them. It became less of a fun hobby and more of a chore, so I am considering downsizing to two.

And really, what exactly does a Pentium PC do that a Pentium III can't? The Pentium is such a lame processor, everything it can do can be done by everything that came after it. It has absolutely nothing exclusive to it, especially from a gaming point of view. I really think that a fast 486 and a Pentium III is enough to cover 99% of your retro computing needs..

Yeah, I agree. I have a "late Win9x" machine that is a fast Pentium III with all the stuff you want for Windows; with an ISA mobo you also have everything you want for ultra high-end DOS.

There well might be a Pentium niche in between e.g. for Voodoo 1 and PowerVR PCX2, things like that. But for one older system, a PCI Pentium isn't different enough for me -- if I have the options available. 😀

firage wrote on 2026-04-09, 11:03:

Yeah, I agree. I have a "late Win9x" machine that is a fast Pentium III with all the stuff you want for Windows; with an ISA mobo you also have everything you want for ultra high-end DOS.

There well might be a Pentium niche in between e.g. for Voodoo 1 and PowerVR PCX2, things like that. But for one older system, a PCI Pentium isn't different enough for me -- if I have the options available. 😀

For me, if restricted to two machines, I would choose:

PC1 (To cover 386 to Pentium 1 era):
- Pentium MMX 233Mhz
- Riva 128
- Voodoo 1
- Soundblaster 16
- can slow it down with SETMUL and/or cache disabled in BIOS

PC2 (To cover 1997-2001)
- Pentium III Tualatin 1.4Ghz
- Geforce 2 Ti
- Voodoo 2 SLI
- Aureal Vortex 2

appiah4 wrote on 2026-04-09, 07:37:

I really think that a fast 486 and a Pentium III is enough to cover 99% of your retro computing needs..

If we're talking minimization, I'd go a step further and argue a Pentium 4 can cover the same territory as a 486 and Pentium III setup in a single box.

Though having a pair of systems does give one more individual hardware options, especially for things like video and sound cards.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 10:44:

Well, for one thing, a Voodoo 1 probably won't work on a PIII.

Funny thing about the Voodoo1 is I tested it on a Pentium 4 setup.

The 3Dfx version of Whiplash (Fatal Racing) worked perfectly. Tomb Raider on the other hand would freeze on the 3Dfx logo about 95% of the time. But 5% of the time, the game would work as well.

It seems like Voodoo1 games should be able to work, maybe just requiring some sort of part to deal with whatever issue causes them to lock up.

Shponglefan wrote on 2026-04-09, 12:26:

If we're talking minimization, I'd go a step further and argue a Pentium 4 can cover the same territory as a 486 and Pentium III setup in a single box.

DOS audio compatibility won't be 100% though if you have a PCI soundcard. Unless you manage to find a unicorn P4 motherboard that supports ISA with DMA support.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 13:25:

DOS audio compatibility won't be 100% though if you have a PCI soundcard. Unless you manage to find a unicorn P4 motherboard that supports ISA with DMA support.

I have a number of P4 motherboards with ISA / DMA support.

Such boards are still readily available on Ebay. The main issue is they are more expensive than most people want to pay (typically $250USD+).

But they're not actually rare at all. They're probably some of the more common motherboards available.

I agree with the comments about the K6 "plus" CPUs, they can cover a large range of uses. In addition to software control of the clock speed, it's also possible to enable/disable the on-die L1 and L2 caches. Software like K6INIT can do further tweaks that sometimes make a big difference in game speed. Then if you need, there are BIOS settings for cache or RAM, or even bus speed jumpers to change too.

Shponglefan wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:06:

I have a number of P4 motherboards with ISA / DMA support. […]
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RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 13:25:

DOS audio compatibility won't be 100% though if you have a PCI soundcard. Unless you manage to find a unicorn P4 motherboard that supports ISA with DMA support.

I have a number of P4 motherboards with ISA / DMA support.

Such boards are still readily available on Ebay. The main issue is they are more expensive than most people want to pay (typically $250USD+).

But they're not actually rare at all. They're probably some of the more common motherboards available.

There's the SBEMU options and those tricks with the crystal chipset that's on cheapy PCI cards that are available now, so no ISA not such a gaping lack as it used to be. ... did anyone have PicoGUS working on the dISAppointment header thing?

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 13:25:

DOS audio compatibility won't be 100% though if you have a PCI soundcard. Unless you manage to find a unicorn P4 motherboard that supports ISA with DMA support.

Socket A with ISA slot is also an option.

Shponglefan wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:06:

I have a number of P4 motherboards with ISA / DMA support.

Such boards are still readily available on Ebay. The main issue is they are more expensive than most people want to pay (typically $250USD+).

But they're not actually rare at all. They're probably some of the more common motherboards available.

I thought most of them used ISA bridge chips and so would not work with ISA soundcards? Also, are they not all PCIe rather than AGP? If you use PCIe graphics card then you really have very few options for good Win9x compatability.

nVidia options have poor drivers, and the ATI ones lack things like table fog in Win 98 (though I think works under XP)

Anyhow, I wouldn't be willing to pay 250USD.

Mike_ wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:25:

Socket A with ISA slot is also an option.

True. I have one such board with a 1.4Ghz athlon in it. I think some people have managed to get a Barton 3200+ working in it, but I havent tried.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:30:

I thought most of them used ISA bridge chips and so would not work with ISA soundcards? Also, are they not all PCIe rather than AGP? If you use PCIe graphics card then you really have very few options for good Win9x compatability.

Only late P4 motherboards use PCIe, starting from 2004 or so. First P4s were released in 2000, so there are plenty of AGP boards.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:30:

I thought most of them used ISA bridge chips and so would not work with ISA soundcards?

Yes, they have ISA-PCI bridge chips, but there are certain chips that still support DMA under DOS for ISA sound cards.

I've tested a bunch of cards including AWE64, Orpheus/Orpheus II, Yamaha YMF71x, GUS Extreme, PicoGUS, and they generally work in my experience.

The only real incompatibility I've run into is GUS PnP support. It works in some games and programs (e.g. Epic Megagames and tracker software), but doesn't work in other DOS games. Weirdly, it works perfectly in Windows 3.11.

I've got an Orpheus II in my current P4 setup. I've tested over 50 DOS games and the only game I can't get sound working is Prehistorik which is notoriously picky for sound card support.

Also, are they not all PCIe rather than AGP? If you use PCIe graphics card then you really have very few options for good Win9x compatability.

They're AGP. I'm using a GeForce 4200 Ti which works fantastic for Windows 9x. I used it with both Win 95 and Win 98 SE.

I also have a Voodoo2 installed for 3Dfx/Glide support.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be willing to pay 250USD.

And that's the real sticking point.

Mike_ wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:41:

Only late P4 motherboards use PCIe, starting from 2004 or so. First P4s were released in 2000, so there are plenty of AGP boards.

Ah, yes, true. I cant see any boards on ebay right now with socket 478, ISA and AGP. They are all socket 775.

Shponglefan wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:44:

Yes, they have ISA-PCI bridge chips, but there are certain chips that still support DMA under DOS for ISA sound cards. […]
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Yes, they have ISA-PCI bridge chips, but there are certain chips that still support DMA under DOS for ISA sound cards.

I've tested a bunch of cards including AWE64, Orpheus/Orpheus II, Yamaha YMF71x, GUS Extreme, PicoGUS, and they generally work in my experience.

The only real incompatibility I've run into is GUS PnP support. It works in some games and programs (e.g. Epic Megagames and tracker software), but doesn't work in other DOS games. Weirdly, it works perfectly in Windows 3.11.

I've got an Orpheus II in my current P4 setup. I've tested over 50 DOS games and the only game I can't get sound working is Prehistorik which is notoriously picky for sound card support.

Good to know! It is interesting to try out these extreme builds to see what's possible.

Sometimes I might spend silly money on something to try it out. The P4 / ISA thing though doesn't interest me enough to spend that much. It is very far in excess of what any DOS game would need. The closest that I have is a Core 2 Duo X6800 system with Geforce FX 5900 and Audigy 2 XS. I think it could be made to work in DOS, but havent tried.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:47:

Ah, yes, true. I cant see any boards on ebay right now with socket 478, ISA and AGP. They are all socket 775.

The DFI G4E620-N is readily available. It's AGP, ISA, socket 478, running Intel 845E chipset: https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/dfi-itox-g4e620-n

I even found a seller that purportedly has over 30 over them for sale.

Also, the Socket 775 is arguably better than Socket 478. With Socket 775 you can potentially use late-model Cedar Mill processors that have Intel Speedstep capability. This allows them to have multiplier settings lowered. By itself this isn't that useful, but in conjunction with other throttling methods can give a range of performance options at slower speeds.

Shponglefan wrote on 2026-04-09, 14:58:

The DFI G4E620-N is readily available. It's AGP, ISA, socket 478, running Intel 845E chipset: https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/dfi-itox-g4e620-n

I even found a seller that purportedly has over 30 over them for sale.

Also, the Socket 775 is arguably better than Socket 478. With Socket 775 you can potentially use late-model Cedar Mill processors that have Intel Speedstep capability. This allows them to have multiplier settings lowered. By itself this isn't that useful, but in conjunction with other throttling methods can give a range of performance options at slower speeds.

Ok, yes, searching by that model number does find lots of matches. Very expensive as you say!

They are pricey, that's for sure.

On the upside, those motherboards do feature 3 ISA slots.

My idea for a build with one of these would be to use 2 ISA sound cards, plus an ISA VGA card. Since these boards allow switching between AGP and PCI/ISA graphics, you could theoretically run two primary GPUs and toggle between them.

For early 90s DOS gaming, it might be possible to throttle down to 386 speeds while also running a period correct ISA VGA graphics card.

At the other end of performance, you'd have a system that could comfortably cover late Windows 9x era and even into early XP era.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-04-09, 12:00:

For me, if restricted to two machines, I would choose: […]
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firage wrote on 2026-04-09, 11:03:

Yeah, I agree. I have a "late Win9x" machine that is a fast Pentium III with all the stuff you want for Windows; with an ISA mobo you also have everything you want for ultra high-end DOS.

There well might be a Pentium niche in between e.g. for Voodoo 1 and PowerVR PCX2, things like that. But for one older system, a PCI Pentium isn't different enough for me -- if I have the options available. 😀

For me, if restricted to two machines, I would choose:

PC1 (To cover 386 to Pentium 1 era):
- Pentium MMX 233Mhz
- Riva 128
- Voodoo 1
- Soundblaster 16
- can slow it down with SETMUL and/or cache disabled in BIOS

PC2 (To cover 1997-2001)
- Pentium III Tualatin 1.4Ghz
- Geforce 2 Ti
- Voodoo 2 SLI
- Aureal Vortex 2

Seems similar to my current setup , which works pretty well.

Regarding other peoples comments.

I feel like people bashing the Pentium 1 is a bit much tbh , which seems to be the current fad around here.
If you want a slightly more segregated setup so you don't have to agonise between early 90s and late 90s on one board then a earlier Pentium plus another system is perfectly valid.

Hell I'd say any era is valid , like should everyone throw out their 5150s since people tend to more lean towards 90s and later stuff?
Of course not so therefore i say let sleeping dogs lie.

I agree, any era is absolutely valid for builds. It comes down to individual goals for the build.

One of my favorite builds is my period correct(ish) Pentium 133 setup. It hits that sweet spot for pre-3D mid-90s DOS gaming. It can be throttled down to 486 or 386 speeds to handle early 90s titles.