I have the same Philips 252B9 😁

Indeed, I also noticed that it does have a forced 4:3 mode. For the VGA input side, that is definitely super useful.

Comparing these two displays, there are a few things that make me feel annoyed about the Philips display, and prefer Asus PA248QV more (when using it with CRT Terminator on DVI-D). These reasons are rather silly and subjective, and very small compared to the actually meaningful things like that aspect ratio issue, but now that we're in the topic..:
1. 252B9 power led constantly blinks on and off when it is in standby. As I am typing this, I can see at the corner of my eye that white power led blinking on and off every five minutes. It tends to drive me nuts, because it "steals my attention" every now and then.. so I end up putting blu tack on top of the power led. I don't understand why manufacturers want to make their devices blink for attention when they're not in use.
2. The 252B9 buttons are small and round, much flimsier than on PA248QV, which are larger and square, easier for fingers to reach.
3. I remember 252B9 had that "thanks for saving the nature" notification coming from the PowerSensor thing whenever it detected you're not watching the screen.. that constant reminding of how green I am made me turn the whole feature off.
4. Checking the current resolution, and switching between video inputs is easier on the PA248QV, and a bit tedious on the 252B9 menu sequence.

One area where the 252B9 wins over PA248QV is that when one turns the PC off, the Asus turns the whole display bright RGB=(0,0,255) blue for a couple of seconds. The 252B9 shows "no signal" briefly, over a black background. This is much nicer for the user.

I've been meaning to do side by side picture quality analysis on DVI-D for CRT Terminator with these two displays, though haven't quite yet gotten around to doing so. Not sure if there will be any meaningful differences to be found there, both seem quite decent.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-02-20, 08:54:

I assume you are talking about the frame rate conversion the panel does ? […]
Show full quote

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-02-19, 17:15:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-02-18, 08:27:

I use a Dell 2007fpb for my retro machines and while its not a IPS it does handle 75Hz refresh at all normal DOS resolutions which makes DOS gaming pretty damn smooth. (Would love a NEC multisync but they are damn expensive)

Dell 2007fpb does not support 70-75Hz refresh rate without frame skipping. That applies to practically all old IPS/xVA 1600x1200 panels.

I assume you are talking about the frame rate conversion the panel does ?

I honestly dont see it as an issue, I have yet to have any issues with DOS games on the panel and it has seen many hundreds of different DOS games at this point. I guess if I had a bigger budget I could find a better panel and I would love to have a better panel but not at the prices they go for.

At least its an affordable option.

They are great monitors, the panel's 60Hz requirement is just an unfortunate drawback occasionally.
I have some similar monitors (HP LP2065 which use the same panels). The 72->60Hz conversion becomes very noticeable if you play DOS games with smooth 2D scrolling, but outside of that it's not a big deal or even perceptible.
When I tried playing Star Control 2, the visual stuttering in the combat screens was awful. So for that game I was happier with a standard TN panel monitor, even though the image quality wasn't as good. But for most other games I play, I wouldn't have had any problem with the IPS.
As far as Starcon2, the modern "Ur Quan Masters" version should run natively at 60Hz through Windows, so that would solve it for people who don't care about running the original DOS version.

So I think it's worth having both a quality 4:3 IPS/VA monitor *and* a TN monitor for occasions when real 72-75Hz support is needed.

clb wrote on 2024-02-20, 22:19:

I have the same Philips 252B9 :D […]
Show full quote

I have the same Philips 252B9 😁

Indeed, I also noticed that it does have a forced 4:3 mode. For the VGA input side, that is definitely super useful.

Comparing these two displays, there are a few things that make me feel annoyed about the Philips display, and prefer Asus PA248QV more (when using it with CRT Terminator on DVI-D). These reasons are rather silly and subjective, and very small compared to the actually meaningful things like that aspect ratio issue, but now that we're in the topic..:
1. 252B9 power led constantly blinks on and off when it is in standby. As I am typing this, I can see at the corner of my eye that white power led blinking on and off every five minutes. It tends to drive me nuts, because it "steals my attention" every now and then.. so I end up putting blu tack on top of the power led. I don't understand why manufacturers want to make their devices blink for attention when they're not in use.
2. The 252B9 buttons are small and round, much flimsier than on PA248QV, which are larger and square, easier for fingers to reach.
3. I remember 252B9 had that "thanks for saving the nature" notification coming from the PowerSensor thing whenever it detected you're not watching the screen.. that constant reminding of how green I am made me turn the whole feature off.
4. Checking the current resolution, and switching between video inputs is easier on the PA248QV, and a bit tedious on the 252B9 menu sequence.

One area where the 252B9 wins over PA248QV is that when one turns the PC off, the Asus turns the whole display bright RGB=(0,0,255) blue for a couple of seconds. The 252B9 shows "no signal" briefly, over a black background. This is much nicer for the user.

I've been meaning to do side by side picture quality analysis on DVI-D for CRT Terminator with these two displays, though haven't quite yet gotten around to doing so. Not sure if there will be any meaningful differences to be found there, both seem quite decent.

Thank you for sharing that extra info.

I use my 252B9 exclusively through DVI/HDMI and the fact that the forced 4:3 mode also works for digital input, in addition to RGB analogue input, is what makes the monitor suitable for use with an OSSC in DOS.

TBH, I am not a fan of blinking status lights in standby mode either, though they do not irritate me that strongly.

BTW, the CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000 looks really nice, but as it requires an ISA or VLB graphics card (AFAIU, please correct me if I am wrong), it is not something that I could use with the systems that I currently have.

shamino wrote on 2024-02-21, 00:02:

They are great monitors, the panel's 60Hz requirement is just an unfortunate drawback occasionally. I have some similar monitors […]
Show full quote

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-02-20, 08:54:

I assume you are talking about the frame rate conversion the panel does ? […]
Show full quote

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-02-19, 17:15:

Dell 2007fpb does not support 70-75Hz refresh rate without frame skipping. That applies to practically all old IPS/xVA 1600x1200 panels.

I assume you are talking about the frame rate conversion the panel does ?

I honestly dont see it as an issue, I have yet to have any issues with DOS games on the panel and it has seen many hundreds of different DOS games at this point. I guess if I had a bigger budget I could find a better panel and I would love to have a better panel but not at the prices they go for.

At least its an affordable option.

They are great monitors, the panel's 60Hz requirement is just an unfortunate drawback occasionally.
I have some similar monitors (HP LP2065 which use the same panels). The 72->60Hz conversion becomes very noticeable if you play DOS games with smooth 2D scrolling, but outside of that it's not a big deal or even perceptible.
When I tried playing Star Control 2, the visual stuttering in the combat screens was awful. So for that game I was happier with a standard TN panel monitor, even though the image quality wasn't as good. But for most other games I play, I wouldn't have had any problem with the IPS.
As far as Starcon2, the modern "Ur Quan Masters" version should run natively at 60Hz through Windows, so that would solve it for people who don't care about running the original DOS version.

So I think it's worth having both a quality 4:3 IPS/VA monitor *and* a TN monitor for occasions when real 72-75Hz support is needed.

Any good suggestions for a IPS/VA panel in 4:3 that doesnt cost a small fortune ?

my main issue is that I have to work with Aussie sellers .. shipping displays internationally isn't an option .. shipping is generally more costly than the display itself along with risk of damage to the display.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-02-21, 00:31:

shamino wrote on 2024-02-21, 00:02:

They are great monitors, the panel's 60Hz requirement is just an unfortunate drawback occasionally. I have some similar monitors […]
Show full quote

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-02-20, 08:54:

I assume you are talking about the frame rate conversion the panel does ?

I honestly dont see it as an issue, I have yet to have any issues with DOS games on the panel and it has seen many hundreds of different DOS games at this point. I guess if I had a bigger budget I could find a better panel and I would love to have a better panel but not at the prices they go for.

At least its an affordable option.

They are great monitors, the panel's 60Hz requirement is just an unfortunate drawback occasionally.
I have some similar monitors (HP LP2065 which use the same panels). The 72->60Hz conversion becomes very noticeable if you play DOS games with smooth 2D scrolling, but outside of that it's not a big deal or even perceptible.
When I tried playing Star Control 2, the visual stuttering in the combat screens was awful. So for that game I was happier with a standard TN panel monitor, even though the image quality wasn't as good. But for most other games I play, I wouldn't have had any problem with the IPS.
As far as Starcon2, the modern "Ur Quan Masters" version should run natively at 60Hz through Windows, so that would solve it for people who don't care about running the original DOS version.

So I think it's worth having both a quality 4:3 IPS/VA monitor *and* a TN monitor for occasions when real 72-75Hz support is needed.

Any good suggestions for a IPS/VA panel in 4:3 that doesnt cost a small fortune ?

my main issue is that I have to work with Aussie sellers .. shipping displays internationally isn't an option .. shipping is generally more costly than the display itself along with risk of damage to the display.

Dell 2007FPB is decent, if you can
1) find one in good working order or one that you are willing to refurb. Consider possible issues such as
a) high power-on hours causing dim backlight (florescent lamp replacement, conversion to LED are options here)
b) potential capacitor issues (recap needed in those cases)
2) live with frameskipping of 70Hz feeds to 60Hz
3) tolerate the backlight bleed you are likely to have and the 16ms response time
5) pay for the cost of shipping, even locally, for something this heavy

darry wrote on 2024-02-21, 00:42:

Dell 2007FPB is decent, if you can 1) find one in good working order or one that you are willing to refurb. Consider possible i […]
Show full quote

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-02-21, 00:31:

shamino wrote on 2024-02-21, 00:02:

They are great monitors, the panel's 60Hz requirement is just an unfortunate drawback occasionally. I have some similar monitors […]
Show full quote

They are great monitors, the panel's 60Hz requirement is just an unfortunate drawback occasionally.
I have some similar monitors (HP LP2065 which use the same panels). The 72->60Hz conversion becomes very noticeable if you play DOS games with smooth 2D scrolling, but outside of that it's not a big deal or even perceptible.
When I tried playing Star Control 2, the visual stuttering in the combat screens was awful. So for that game I was happier with a standard TN panel monitor, even though the image quality wasn't as good. But for most other games I play, I wouldn't have had any problem with the IPS.
As far as Starcon2, the modern "Ur Quan Masters" version should run natively at 60Hz through Windows, so that would solve it for people who don't care about running the original DOS version.

So I think it's worth having both a quality 4:3 IPS/VA monitor *and* a TN monitor for occasions when real 72-75Hz support is needed.

Any good suggestions for a IPS/VA panel in 4:3 that doesnt cost a small fortune ?

my main issue is that I have to work with Aussie sellers .. shipping displays internationally isn't an option .. shipping is generally more costly than the display itself along with risk of damage to the display.

Dell 2007FPB is decent, if you can
1) find one in good working order or one that you are willing to refurb. Consider possible issues such as
a) high power-on hours causing dim backlight (florescent lamp replacement, conversion to LED are options here)
b) potential capacitor issues (recap needed in those cases)
2) live with frameskipping of 70Hz feeds to 60Hz
3) tolerate the backlight bleed you are likely to have and the 16ms response time
5) pay for the cost of shipping, even locally, for something this heavy

heh, have two of them already with the LED backlight mods.
Currently looking at a Samsung B1940R or a DELL P1917S SXGA as two alternative options the Samsung looks good but the Dell is a IPS and also looks like a nice option.

darry wrote on 2024-02-21, 00:22:

BTW, the CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000 looks really nice, but as it requires an ISA or VLB graphics card (AFAIU, please correct me if I am wrong), it is not something that I could use with the systems that I currently have.

Oh good point on bringing up this one. After the original web page went up, we have been able to figure out how to add support for PCI VGA adapters (there was a configuration bit in the PCI register address space that was needed to be enabled to get PCI Palette Snoop working), so CRT Terminator will work well with PCI graphics cards as well. Although here the 37.5 MHz pixel clock cap on the 8-bit Feature Connector bandwidth will limit resolutions and color depth, so 800x600 @ 256c is still the maximum that reliably works, even if the PCI adapter might have other modes.

AGP graphics cards are currently no supported, and at the moment we have no idea why they don't work. I have 18 AGP test cards in my lab, and all of them just run with the Feature Connector either fully disabled, or possibly configured/limited to run as video input only (I don't know which).

Though maybe all this is a bit off topic for this thread, so if there's any thoughts, we can pile on the existing conversation at CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000 , or have a new thread.

In the scope of best retrogaming monitor though, I do think that for the early VGA era PCs, CRT Terminator feeding DVI-D to something like Asus PA248QV will be a very appealing setup for many users.

Threads like this are honestly a big part of why we started working on Ganso.

So many people are still hunting for old Dell, HP, NEC or Eizo panels because there’s never really been a modern display designed specifically around retro PCs, DOS gaming, MiSTer FPGA and modern retro gaming setups in general.

We’ve been exploring that exact space with a modern 4:3 display project:
https://ganso.studio/

60Hz... so not compatible with most DOS games that use 70Hz.

Given the recent advances in small-size panel tech, I can only imagine how awesome a retro monitor with the newest LED tech could be.

The big problem to be solved is scaling. Here are the requirements to be a viable CRT replacement:

1. Perfect LCD representation of individual pixels using the least blurry possible algorithm that still keeps them all the same size

2. Near immediate latency

3. Position and size controls, support for overscan

4. Immediate response to mode changes without blanking

I watched a good video on new CRT tech the other day, they can produce new CRT panels that produce images via electron scanning but don't require the tube to make it happen. They have had this tech for quite a while but its never been financially feasible to produce screens with it except for the media production market where the tech would make sense.

Now though .. the tech can be produced fairly cheaply and produces images and quality better than the older CRT tech could, the only thing holding it back is lack of a market.

Having seen how damn good a 5090 looks on a CRT @ 4k with Path Tracing...it blows OLED out of the water for image quality and color reproduction, I can only image how much better it would look using one of the new CRT panels with a refresh rate and quality even OLED cant match. (Yes people have made adapters to allow this to work)

CRT isn't dead, its just been taking a well earned holiday till the other tech could catch up and make it cheap enough to beat OLED panels.

Better color reproduction on CRT is a myth that was born during early LCD days.

I have directly compared many LCDs to the CRT sitting on my desk (a ~2000 era Dell, probably a Trinitron tube) and the CRT is about equivalent to the nice LG IPS I use for my main rig in terms of color reproduction.

The Serpent Rider wrote on Today, 02:06:

Better color reproduction on CRT is a myth that was born during early LCD days.

And yet its been proven time and time again to be true and modern CRTs are far better than the old tube based ones.

Oled is close, Plasma was closer.

But hey you believe what you like, not like it matters.

Also Aliens are actually real and alternate universes exist according to CERN research and later proven.. fancy that, things people were 100% certain were just Myth.

keenmaster486 wrote on Today, 02:07:

I have directly compared many LCDs to the CRT sitting on my desk (a ~2000 era Dell, probably a Trinitron tube) and the CRT is about equivalent to the nice LG IPS I use for my main rig in terms of color reproduction.

Are both calibrated ?

if not its just subjective.

Trashbytes wrote on Today, 02:17:

Are both calibrated ?

if not its just subjective.

Yes, I'm referring to the subjective color quality. And I should clarify that I consider both to be very good. The older LCDs I have are trash in comparison to both the new LCD and the old CRT.

rhidvegi wrote on Yesterday, 10:20:

Threads like this are honestly a big part of why we started working on Ganso. […]
Show full quote

Threads like this are honestly a big part of why we started working on Ganso.

So many people are still hunting for old Dell, HP, NEC or Eizo panels because there’s never really been a modern display designed specifically around retro PCs, DOS gaming, MiSTer FPGA and modern retro gaming setups in general.

We’ve been exploring that exact space with a modern 4:3 display project:
https://ganso.studio/

I was ready to love it but it only mentions 60Hz support. That's ok for consoles but retro PC displays need 70Hz.
Ultra low latency and Freesync should really also be a consideration for projects like this but native 70Hz without frame drops is an absolute must.