hockinsk wrote on 2026-05-22, 10:56:

I'm hoping I can get Yamaha on side with it. But like many things in life, you have to show them something finished before they take it seriously haha

Do I have this right? You've not only copied their ROM data, reverse-engineered some of their software and/or hardware and are trying to create a solution that gives Yamaha-like sound without giving them anything at all, and all without prior consultation or permission, but you intend to tell them about it after the fact? It sounds like an invitation to send a cease-and-desist letter at the very least.

I am always impressed by the ingenuity shown in accomplishing the progress we see in such efforts, but to make a big deal about it, distribute the end result, and even contact the original creators of the technology about it seems bold (among other things).

tcaud wrote on 2026-05-25, 06:50:

I think you're wrong. […]
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zaphod77 wrote on 2026-05-24, 22:17:

I have a simple goal. playback xg composed midis correctly and at highest quality without needing to hookup an mu hardware tone […]
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I have a simple goal. playback xg composed midis correctly and at highest quality without needing to hookup an mu hardware tone generator. 😀

A good example is the ff7 PC xg soundtrack.

Yamaha is unlikely to have any interest in your project, because they already have a VSTi3 that does AWM2 (and a number of other synthesis methods). they just won't sell it to you, only providing it as a free download if you own one of their very expensive synths.

And of course they can just go to the source of their original samples.

I think you're wrong.

See https://icrowdlegal.com/safeguarding-intellec … -legal-triumph/

Including the SYXG format and emulation in MAME likely crosses the line into piracy. Moreover, it goes well beyond MAME's original mission.

This refers to ripped accompaniment data, not to the instrument samples.

But what I meant is that Yamaha is unlikely to themselves make use of this project, because they already have their own PC VST3 solution. They are not going to buy the project and sell it to customers, because they don't want to canabalize their hardware market.

If they wanted to, they could very easily whip out a VSTi for their MU- series modules, and this project isn't going to change their minds.

zaphod77 wrote on 2026-05-25, 07:30:

This refers to ripped accompaniment data, not to the instrument samples. […]
Show full quote

tcaud wrote on 2026-05-25, 06:50:

I think you're wrong. […]
Show full quote

zaphod77 wrote on 2026-05-24, 22:17:

I have a simple goal. playback xg composed midis correctly and at highest quality without needing to hookup an mu hardware tone […]
Show full quote

I have a simple goal. playback xg composed midis correctly and at highest quality without needing to hookup an mu hardware tone generator. 😀

A good example is the ff7 PC xg soundtrack.

Yamaha is unlikely to have any interest in your project, because they already have a VSTi3 that does AWM2 (and a number of other synthesis methods). they just won't sell it to you, only providing it as a free download if you own one of their very expensive synths.

And of course they can just go to the source of their original samples.

I think you're wrong.

See https://icrowdlegal.com/safeguarding-intellec … -legal-triumph/

Including the SYXG format and emulation in MAME likely crosses the line into piracy. Moreover, it goes well beyond MAME's original mission.

This refers to ripped accompaniment data, not to the instrument samples.

But what I meant is that Yamaha is unlikely to themselves make use of this project, because they already have their own PC VST3 solution. They are not going to buy the project and sell it to customers, because they don't want to canabalize their hardware market.

If they wanted to, they could very easily whip out a VSTi for their MU- series modules, and this project isn't going to change their minds.

There's a reason Roland's is the only D-50 emulation VST... they are very protective about their samples. Yamaha probably is also (if they weren't, they'd be giving away their VSTis).

Again, i was never saying that they woudn't complain. i was saying they wouldn't use it as the basis for a new yamaha product to sell to normal people, which is what i think the original maker was talking about.

tcaud wrote on 2026-05-25, 07:51:

they are very protective about their samples. Yamaha probably is also

They have a very good reason to be protective of their technology. Creating a good synthesis engine and sample bank is no easy task. As evidence, you need only look at the many, many multi-gigabyte "instrument banks" that don't even sound as good as some of the 2 MiB banks of the mid-1990s for the common uses we in the PC world have for them, much less real musical work. Even looking at the recent, larger, "licenced" banks from Dream, they sometimes fall flat compared to the better banks of the time. With such efforts, what do Yamaha or Roland get in return for their expertise and investments? You can argue that they are no longer available, "abandoned", old, etc., but we are still talking about their intellectual property, and for now, they still have exclusive authority over all of it. I have no legal qualifications in any jurisdiction, but I would expect that projects like these don't have a legal leg to stand on, were the rights-holders to decide to assert their rights.

640K!enough wrote on 2026-05-25, 06:59:

hockinsk wrote on 2026-05-22, 10:56:

I'm hoping I can get Yamaha on side with it. But like many things in life, you have to show them something finished before they take it seriously haha

Do I have this right? You've not only copied their ROM data, reverse-engineered some of their software and/or hardware and are trying to create a solution that gives Yamaha-like sound without giving them anything at all, and all without prior consultation or permission, but you intend to tell them about it after the fact? It sounds like an invitation to send a cease-and-desist letter at the very least.

I am always impressed by the ingenuity shown in accomplishing the progress we see in such efforts, but to make a big deal about it, distribute the end result, and even contact the original creators of the technology about it seems bold (among other things).

Well emulation is generally legally accepted and mame sits in this space too. So long as I don't distribute the MU2000 ROM, it's simply emulating. So that's one legal angle. But I would much prefer to receive Yamaha's support to either licence the Voice Library like they allow for many third parties using XG in the past or endorse it. Lets see. So long as it's only a personal project, there is not much to be concerned about.

zaphod77 wrote on 2026-05-25, 07:30:

This refers to ripped accompaniment data, not to the instrument samples. […]
Show full quote

tcaud wrote on 2026-05-25, 06:50:

I think you're wrong. […]
Show full quote

zaphod77 wrote on 2026-05-24, 22:17:

I have a simple goal. playback xg composed midis correctly and at highest quality without needing to hookup an mu hardware tone […]
Show full quote

I have a simple goal. playback xg composed midis correctly and at highest quality without needing to hookup an mu hardware tone generator. 😀

A good example is the ff7 PC xg soundtrack.

Yamaha is unlikely to have any interest in your project, because they already have a VSTi3 that does AWM2 (and a number of other synthesis methods). they just won't sell it to you, only providing it as a free download if you own one of their very expensive synths.

And of course they can just go to the source of their original samples.

I think you're wrong.

See https://icrowdlegal.com/safeguarding-intellec … -legal-triumph/

Including the SYXG format and emulation in MAME likely crosses the line into piracy. Moreover, it goes well beyond MAME's original mission.

This refers to ripped accompaniment data, not to the instrument samples.

But what I meant is that Yamaha is unlikely to themselves make use of this project, because they already have their own PC VST3 solution. They are not going to buy the project and sell it to customers, because they don't want to canabalize their hardware market.

If they wanted to, they could very easily whip out a VSTi for their MU- series modules, and this project isn't going to change their minds.

As with mame, it's emulation, not piracy. So long as the ROM remains Yamaha's property I don't actually need them, the plugin can be my IP, the ROM as Yamaha's, what people do with Yamaha's ROM, like with mame is up to them. But, Yamaha have licenced XG Libraries before with Korg, Roland, Square (FF), Creative, Terratec, AOpen, so XG is a licensable technology. I agree they abandoned it in early 2000's and also software instrument distribution. We can ask, they can say no, it will mean downloading the ROM yourself, same as with Mame.

silvally03@ wrote on 2026-05-23, 18:33:

is the muxg sill work pin progess?

Yes. A personal project, so slow progress in my own time. A demo of progress here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avrvl43ZTTI

XG has been completely abandoned, as far as I know.

The last products i'm aware of that still did it were the genos2 (successor to Tyros) and the PSR-SX920. Between those two, you probably have the most complete XG patchsets if you can get them out of the ROM.

They have not abandoned AWM2, though, as current products still use it, with the Montage M having an "extended" version.

The project being worked on i'd consider as legal as nuked-sc55 is. bring your own rom dumps/TBL files.

Roland and Yamaha seem to both recognize that the current soundfonts and wacky projects floating around are not affecting the market value of their current stuff. They probably aren't that happy about those silly kontact libraries people have hacked up and sold, but they are still around and still somehow being sold... Roland appears to no longer make GS devices, and only the arranger keyboards seem to even handle GM2 now. Yamaha makes no more xg products. Neither makes tone generators anymore at all, so there's no sales to canabalize anymore.

The roland GS sampleset seems to be available to sublicense from Dream, under rather restrictive terms. i'm not sure if there is any other way to license the full quality samples at all, and roland+yamaha aren't the easiet to talk to. I had ask ed Roland about SOund Canvas VA and improving it, and they never really committed to anything

The real issue with the project may be that AWM2 is protected by patents. And some of these were filed in 2015. A careful search of the patent databases is needed to determine if the MU2000EX is itself protected by any still live patents. The Extended AWM2 implemented in the Montage M is definitely still protected by patent. The earlier versions used in the MU units may not be, but your own software implementation of AWM2 will have to respect the current patents. This is why i wanted to drop better samples into S-yxg50 VSTi. 😀

Well syxg50 itself in terms of the veg and other versions out there are a cracked software licence and decrypted voice library so why I'm not going anywhere near it. MUXG2K like mame decodes the ROM, no cracked software or ROM needed. Distributing the ROM with the plugin is what Yamaha can either agree to or reject. Well see. First the project must be complete and be better than anything XG in hardware or software to get noticed. Internally its not AWM2, everything is worked out by running every note in every voice from hardware and name and logged, then engineered using modern dsp in cpp. Each run takes 13 hour midi file haha.

hockinsk wrote on Yesterday, 00:10:

640K!enough wrote on 2026-05-25, 06:59:

hockinsk wrote on 2026-05-22, 10:56:

I'm hoping I can get Yamaha on side with it. But like many things in life, you have to show them something finished before they take it seriously haha

Do I have this right? You've not only copied their ROM data, reverse-engineered some of their software and/or hardware and are trying to create a solution that gives Yamaha-like sound without giving them anything at all, and all without prior consultation or permission, but you intend to tell them about it after the fact? It sounds like an invitation to send a cease-and-desist letter at the very least.

I am always impressed by the ingenuity shown in accomplishing the progress we see in such efforts, but to make a big deal about it, distribute the end result, and even contact the original creators of the technology about it seems bold (among other things).

Well emulation is generally legally accepted and mame sits in this space too. So long as I don't distribute the MU2000 ROM, it's simply emulating. So that's one legal angle. But I would much prefer to receive Yamaha's support to either licence the Voice Library like they allow for many third parties using XG in the past or endorse it. Lets see. So long as it's only a personal project, there is not much to be concerned about.

The best case scenario for you is that they ignore you. The worst case is that they regard you as a criminal. They will send you a cease and desist which could become a part of your public record and at very least make it impossible to get a job with any of these companies. It's not a great idea to piss these companies off in the age of consolidation... NI was just bought by inMusic which makes the latter absolutely massive. Only Yamaha itself compares in scale (probably distantly). You piss one off, you piss them all off.

Yamaha will not bargain with you. You are not Japanese for one thing, and for another you are a part of this community of "rogues and ruffians". We know that's how we are all regarded because of the failure of the Scanlation Summit several years ago (the publishers actually called the scanlators criminals to their faces).

You could try to go at this on your own by making your own distinct technology based on expired patents, file a patent of your own and sell it with your own set of samples. Do not even try to pass off their methods as your own -- IP protection agencies have decent decompilation AI which can spot "borrowed" algorithms. Perhaps then they might be interested, if you have the right credentials. Ask yourself if you deserve the attention they gave to David Chowning.

You act like the emulations we know and love are legally bulletproof but the lack of quality alternative sample data is a danger zone... Roland was able to get the unauthorized D-50 VST destroyed on that basis alone. You are playing with fire and worse comes to worst we could lose MUNT 🙁

Okay, yamaha's page fooled me.

You can still buy genos and psr products still. plenty of them. just not the stuff that your program understands. But turns out all their current stuff just has the basic 480 XG voices slapped in anyway.

It does seem there are two main roms needed. one is the mu-50 rom, as this is what stuff was specifcially composed for usually. the other is of course the mu2000.

Roland still definitely no longer sells GS stuff, but yamaha is still selling the arranger keyboards.

You seem to be right that there's literally no way to actually contact yamaha. i very much want a statement about s-y50xg portable, and possible ways to actually buy a proper VSTi for a fair price.

Using the rom is definitely an emulator thing, and not bundling it should put you in the clear. But while this plugin will likely be free, usage of it inside a DAW still probably counts as commercial use.

But great care must be made to not step on yamaha's non-expired patents regarding wave table synthesis. If they object to the roms, that's not your issue, you aren't providing them. But if they compain about patent violation, at best case you will be forced to desist. and absolutely do NOT provide source until you have confirmed you aren't violating a patent.

Roland does still sell GS stuff, just as Yamaha still sells XG stuff, both incorporating their respective MIDI standards into their arranger keyboards and digital pianos. None of these are marked with the respective logos, but they have "operating modes" for each, as detailed in the specs or owner's manuals.

The EX-50 keyboard only mentions GM2 in their specs, not XG. and i can't even look up bank select messages for them.

The BK line seems to be the only current product that will actually probably play back most GS midi correctly. The fantoms and whatnot can play back the midi files but you still generally need to manually select the instruments. all others but bk-2 and bk-5 are discontinued.

Yes, if you look through discontinued products you can find plenty. I was only considering ones that are still listed as not discontinued.

tcaud wrote on Yesterday, 19:24:

The best case scenario for you is that they ignore you. The worst case is that they regard you as a criminal. They will send you […]
Show full quote

hockinsk wrote on Yesterday, 00:10:

640K!enough wrote on 2026-05-25, 06:59:

Do I have this right? You've not only copied their ROM data, reverse-engineered some of their software and/or hardware and are trying to create a solution that gives Yamaha-like sound without giving them anything at all, and all without prior consultation or permission, but you intend to tell them about it after the fact? It sounds like an invitation to send a cease-and-desist letter at the very least.

I am always impressed by the ingenuity shown in accomplishing the progress we see in such efforts, but to make a big deal about it, distribute the end result, and even contact the original creators of the technology about it seems bold (among other things).

Well emulation is generally legally accepted and mame sits in this space too. So long as I don't distribute the MU2000 ROM, it's simply emulating. So that's one legal angle. But I would much prefer to receive Yamaha's support to either licence the Voice Library like they allow for many third parties using XG in the past or endorse it. Lets see. So long as it's only a personal project, there is not much to be concerned about.

The best case scenario for you is that they ignore you. The worst case is that they regard you as a criminal. They will send you a cease and desist which could become a part of your public record and at very least make it impossible to get a job with any of these companies. It's not a great idea to piss these companies off in the age of consolidation... NI was just bought by inMusic which makes the latter absolutely massive. Only Yamaha itself compares in scale (probably distantly). You piss one off, you piss them all off.

Yamaha will not bargain with you. You are not Japanese for one thing, and for another you are a part of this community of "rogues and ruffians". We know that's how we are all regarded because of the failure of the Scanlation Summit several years ago (the publishers actually called the scanlators criminals to their faces).

You could try to go at this on your own by making your own distinct technology based on expired patents, file a patent of your own and sell it with your own set of samples. Do not even try to pass off their methods as your own -- IP protection agencies have decent decompilation AI which can spot "borrowed" algorithms. Perhaps then they might be interested, if you have the right credentials. Ask yourself if you deserve the attention they gave to David Chowning.

You act like the emulations we know and love are legally bulletproof but the lack of quality alternative sample data is a danger zone... Roland was able to get the unauthorized D-50 VST destroyed on that basis alone. You are playing with fire and worse comes to worst we could lose MUNT 🙁

You like to dramatize a lot. At the very worst, as a private individual, Yamaha can send a cease and desist orders as they want, legally they are just a warning, there's not going to be a court injunction/order at the letter stage and there's nothing placed on your criminal record, that's why I said, they can yes or no long before even that letter. I've had one before from Dolby for some software that included their name in the product description. That was 100% my own software, I used Dolby as a trade name, much like people use Hoover to describe a vacuum cleaner. It was fine, i accepted the cease and desist, corrected the text in the software, nothing happened. Things can be amicable, it's not a fight.

zaphod77 wrote on Yesterday, 20:30:

Okay, yamaha's page fooled me. […]
Show full quote

Okay, yamaha's page fooled me.

You can still buy genos and psr products still. plenty of them. just not the stuff that your program understands. But turns out all their current stuff just has the basic 480 XG voices slapped in anyway.

It does seem there are two main roms needed. one is the mu-50 rom, as this is what stuff was specifcially composed for usually. the other is of course the mu2000.

Roland still definitely no longer sells GS stuff, but yamaha is still selling the arranger keyboards.

You seem to be right that there's literally no way to actually contact yamaha. i very much want a statement about s-y50xg portable, and possible ways to actually buy a proper VSTi for a fair price.

Using the rom is definitely an emulator thing, and not bundling it should put you in the clear. But while this plugin will likely be free, usage of it inside a DAW still probably counts as commercial use.

But great care must be made to not step on yamaha's non-expired patents regarding wave table synthesis. If they object to the roms, that's not your issue, you aren't providing them. But if they compain about patent violation, at best case you will be forced to desist. and absolutely do NOT provide source until you have confirmed you aren't violating a patent.

It comes down to two simple definitions:

Copyright protects Yamaha's source code. I'm not using their source code or their firmware ROM. I'm emulating it, not creating bit or sample-perfect copy. In fact it's advantageous to not use AWM2 firmware emulation as it allows much more modern processing and DSP approach. Hardware is limiting, especially from late 90s

Patent protects AWM2 and probably the term 'MU' and 'XG'. Although I could find no patent for AWM2 and obviously most patents within AWM2 will have expired by now anyway, so I assume it's just a term and parts of it are Patented. MUXG2K is just a working name for the project, if it gets beyond my own computer it wouldn't be called that and as it doesn't use AWM2 hardware/firmware/software as its DSP I'm clear there. Obviously if Yamaha agreed to licence an XG ROM for it, I would switch out my DSP for theirs, but XG and MU are dead and expired.

hockinsk wrote on Today, 06:56:

It comes down to two simple definitions: […]
Show full quote

zaphod77 wrote on Yesterday, 20:30:

Okay, yamaha's page fooled me. […]
Show full quote

Okay, yamaha's page fooled me.

You can still buy genos and psr products still. plenty of them. just not the stuff that your program understands. But turns out all their current stuff just has the basic 480 XG voices slapped in anyway.

It does seem there are two main roms needed. one is the mu-50 rom, as this is what stuff was specifcially composed for usually. the other is of course the mu2000.

Roland still definitely no longer sells GS stuff, but yamaha is still selling the arranger keyboards.

You seem to be right that there's literally no way to actually contact yamaha. i very much want a statement about s-y50xg portable, and possible ways to actually buy a proper VSTi for a fair price.

Using the rom is definitely an emulator thing, and not bundling it should put you in the clear. But while this plugin will likely be free, usage of it inside a DAW still probably counts as commercial use.

But great care must be made to not step on yamaha's non-expired patents regarding wave table synthesis. If they object to the roms, that's not your issue, you aren't providing them. But if they compain about patent violation, at best case you will be forced to desist. and absolutely do NOT provide source until you have confirmed you aren't violating a patent.

It comes down to two simple definitions:

Copyright protects Yamaha's source code. I'm not using their source code or their firmware ROM. I'm emulating it, not creating bit or sample-perfect copy. In fact it's advantageous to not use AWM2 firmware emulation as it allows much more modern processing and DSP approach. Hardware is limiting, especially from late 90s

Patent protects AWM2 and probably the term 'MU' and 'XG'. Although I could find no patent for AWM2 and obviously most patents within AWM2 will have expired by now anyway, so I assume it's just a term and parts of it are Patented. MUXG2K is just a working name for the project, if it gets beyond my own computer it wouldn't be called that and as it doesn't use AWM2 hardware/firmware/software as its DSP I'm clear there. Obviously if Yamaha agreed to licence an XG ROM for it, I would switch out my DSP for theirs, but XG and MU are dead and expired.

That may be true, but you reverse-engineered their code is the thing. That was already forbidden by the software license you accepted.

As for your plan to pitch your rip of their code back to them... maybe you should have done your research... (I did it for you).

https://www.yamaha.com/en/contact-us/

Technical Idea Submission Policy […]
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Technical Idea Submission Policy

Yamaha engages in R&D within a broad range of technical fields and possesses a variety of ideas and technical information.
Technical proposals submitted from external sources have potential to create disputes relating to trade secrets or Intellectual Property Rights.
In order to avoid any possible disputes, Yamaha shall refrain from accepting any external technical proposal or idea, which may be confidential, contain trade secrets or do not hold applicable patent or other Intellectual Property Right(s).
Therefore, should Yamaha receive any technical proposal or idea that does not possess the relevant Intellectual Property Right(s), Yamaha shall return any proposal without review or evaluation.

I haven't reverse engineered their code. The final DSP is emulating it in cpp using better practices than Yamaha had at the time within their own chip.
As for Yamaha's terms, everyone knows that's all they are, what is in words isn't a reality, it's a legal protection only.