I have seen cache issues being discussed on algorithm interview, guys who work in C/C++ care about it. It is more about few key algorithms/functions being cache optimized than the whole app.

I would speculate that one of the reason why Cyrix put just 1KB cache on 486DLC is because they were aware of the cache flush issue, couldn't solve it on 386 platform and decided not to make the CPU more expensive than needed. They didn't sell well anyway, there weren't that many boards that supported them.

rasz_pl wrote on 2026-06-02, 02:38:

Ah, 386 chipset + 486 cpu, perfect! Now run tests that dont bottleneck on FPU and VGA :) Doom might be ok'ish, it does 8bit vide […]
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Ah, 386 chipset + 486 cpu, perfect! Now run tests that dont bottleneck on FPU and VGA 😀 Doom might be ok'ish, it does 8bit video writes when drawing columns and VGA will still bottleneck on faster cpu. FastDoom even better as it renders to ram buffer and copies to video in bulk.

I dont recall ever seeing cachechk results from such combo either 🙁 Would be good comparison to 486SXL2 @80Mhz running on (ALi M1429) ECS PANDA 386V which is the opposite of the case we are wondering about, its a 486 chipset on 386 motherboard running Cyrix 486'like using 386 bus :-] 😮
Re: Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP!
486SXL2 @80Mhz + ALi M1429
L2 27 us/KB

Attached the cachechk for the 386DX Sis Rabbit hybrid with DX4-100. FSB 33MHz. L2 cache is 64KB. 26 us/KB. L1 cache flies though.

The fastest frame rate I've seen is in Duke Nukem 3D, using Linear Frame Buffer Vesa mode, 320x200 on a Chips 65545 ~50FPS. Otherwise max is around 25FPS (facing a wall) and either an ISA or RAM bottleneck.

rasz_pl wrote on 2026-06-02, 02:38:

How do you write such application? In nineties even geniuses like Abrash and Carmack didnt bother and Quake speeds up linearly all the way to 2MB of L2 and would probably go beyond https://dependency-injection.com/2mb-cache-benchmarks/ Quake codebase is not cache aware, both total size and cache line width were not a factor during development. It was simply too much to worry about data locality when shipping a DOS game in the nineties. Nowadays everyone tries to fit hot path in L1, but even then you cant predict cache sizes. Data oriented programming only became popular with bad/convoluted console architectures where you simply had to worry about data layout to avoid huge latency penalties.

You'd be able to see when performance starts to degrade because you're holding onto too much data to render one frame. You couldn't access all maps, all textures, all things in the game at once... You'd keep room size small, reuse the same enemy, same 64x64 textures (per level)... maps themselves are pre-rendered lists of coordinates and lighting... In Doom 3 though they were taking data off the HDD mid game and made everyone upgrade to SSDs..

AlexZ wrote on 2026-06-02, 06:30:

I would speculate that one of the reason why Cyrix put just 1KB cache on 486DLC is because they were aware of the cache flush issue, couldn't solve it on 386 platform and decided not to make the CPU more expensive than needed. They didn't sell well anyway, there weren't that many boards that supported them.

Cache also costs a lot in space in silicon, and is a large surface area to generate defects (and the need to reduce cache size to have a good yield for the CPU)

MikeSG wrote on 2026-06-02, 12:23:

cachechk-386-dx4-100.jpg
Attached the cachechk for the 386DX Sis Rabbit hybrid with DX4-100. FSB 33MHz. L2 cache is 64KB. 26 us/KB. L1 cache flies though.

26 us/KB is fantastic for 386 chipset, even your ram speed is pretty in line with fastest 486 chipsets 😮 I seem to suck at theretroweb and wasnt able to find dual socket Sis Rabbit boards 🙁

numbers I cited earlier were for DX2 @66
>3-2-2-2: 32 us/KB
>2-1-1-1 24 us/KB

SX @33
37 us/KB compaq Re: Compaq (197005-001) cache module - open source reproduction no idea if cache was set to 2111 (Turbo) or 3222 (fast)

DX4 @100
3-2-2-2: 28 us/KB ALi M1489/DataExpert EXP8449 Re: 486 dx4-100 outperforms P100 . VT82C486 FIC 486-GAC-2 Re: FIC 486-GAC-2 and proprietary cache module - Prototype works! Revision in progress.
2-1-1-1 20 us/KB UM82C881 Hot433 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm_QoqwQ1hU&t=180 . VIA VT82C486 FIC 486-GAC-2 Re: FIC 486-GAC-2 and proprietary cache module - Prototype works! Revision in progress. . VLSI VL82C481 Compaq
PROLINEA Re: Compaq (197005-001) cache module - open source reproduction

AMD Am5x86-P75 @133
2-1-1-1 18 us/KB VLSI VL82C481 Compaq PROLINEA Re: Compaq (197005-001) cache module - open source reproduction

DX4 100 @150 using 50MHz FSB 😮
2-1-1-1 14 us/KB VLSI VL82C481 Compaq PROLINEA Re: Compaq (197005-001) cache module - open source reproduction
2-1-1-1 13 us/KB with more tweaks to memory controller Re: Compaq (197005-001) cache module - open source reproduction

In conclusion no Burst support means ~30% slower L2 cache no matter the CPU speed, but the impact is less significant with faster CPUs. On DX2 3222 timings make L2 barely faster than ram, while DX4 is somehow capable of fetching L2 much faster making L2-ram difference almost x2 even at 3222 timings.

I'll agree that in synthetic tests there's a 30% difference, but games that run main loops in a small memory foot print are different. L1 has a "least recently used" structure. L2 not as frequently used. RAM rarely used.

I dug up the 486 motherboard cachchk.
486 (SIS EISA - 85C406/85C411/85C431). L2: 20us/KB (55.9MB/s), RAM 30us/KB (36.7MB/s). Write: 16us/KB.
386 (SIS - 310/320/330). L2: 26us/KB (42.5MB/s), RAM 43us/KB (25.9MB/s). Write 24us/KB.

L2 was 31% faster. RAM 41% faster.

There's no dual socket SIS 310/320/330 (SIS rabbit) anywhere that I can find except in the Acer V5 (not on retroweb). I need to upload a picture some day.

Those cache module times are crazy.

I looked at the jumper settings on DataExpert boards (probably the most common and easiest to find; at any rate, those hybrid boards are the ones I come across most often), and it didn't seem too bad. If both CPUs run at the same FSB, you only had to change about four jumpers.

As for the graphics card: are you saying that VLB doesn't really offer any benefit on a 386? If so, would it be better to look for something with EISA instead? Were there any hybrid boards that supported that?

I was thinking about an Am386DX-40 and an Am486DX2-80. If I were going for a fast 486 build, I'd probably use a dedicated PCI motherboard. On the other hand, AMD's 486 has a somewhat weaker FPU, although I doubt that would matter much in a system like this.

And if I don't want to mess around with jumpers every time, I can probably forget about the Am386DX-40. Unless, of course, the DX2-66 can run nicely at 40 MHz FSB and effectively become a DX2-80.

gregorem wrote on 2026-06-12, 21:36:

As for the graphics card: are you saying that VLB doesn't really offer any benefit on a 386? If so, would it be better to look for something with EISA instead? Were there any hybrid boards that supported that?

386 is just too slow for anything faster than ISA to matter that much. Especially if you OC ISA to 12-16MHz the difference will vanish.

It can make sense if someone is trying to build the best 386 possible. IBM 386 had MCA.

It's similar to using GTX 275 on my Athlon 64. There are situations when it helps.

Faster bus would help with SVGA games or Windows. Typical 386 workloads were 320x200 only, those wouldn't benefit. Another benefit would be LBA capable VLB IDE controllers, or VLB SCSI controller.

If you only wanted one PC and you want to be able to switch between 386 and 486... VLB is better in 2D accelerated workloads (windows, 2d GUI games). Maybe some Dos games can run at 640x400.

A while back I tested my Jetway J-402B hybrid board (OPTI 495XLC chipset).

I installed my Cyrix 486DLC-40 with an ISA Tseng Labs ET4000 and ran the Doom timedemo and then tested it again with a VLB Tseng ET4000 W32 (the motherboard simply refuses to run with an S3 805 chipset based VLB card).

I could definitely see the difference in performance (couple of fps boost with everything else in the system remaining the same).

But, now I'm trying to recall whether I also tested this board with a AMD386 DX-40 CPU.
I'm pretty certain I did and I did notice a small bump in fps performance as well when I installed the VLB card.

That being said, Doom still doesn't run that well on a slower 40 MHz system (you really need a 486DX2-66 or faster coupled with a VLB card) and, the OPTI 495XLC chipset doesn't perform very well either, compared to when I installed the same CPU's in a 386-only motherboard using a different chipset.

Based on my own experience, resolutions higher then 320x240 (i.e.,640x400 or 640x480) in terms of gaming is really reserved for Pentium or faster systems.

On 386 in SVGA, you could play Transport Tycoon, adventures or board games. VLB video card would have 1MB memory and you could view 16/24bit photos. It isn't just about performance.

AlexZ wrote on 2026-06-13, 10:07:

On 386 in SVGA, you could play Transport Tycoon

You could experience Transport Tycoon, play not really

I used to play Transport Tycoon on 386DX40 with OCed ISA bus. Plenty of time for thinking and planning.