Jo22 wrote on Today, 01:36:

^Makes sense. On other hand, what does remain if everything physical is gone? So far, people replaced CRTs by LCDs, serial ball […]
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^Makes sense. On other hand, what does remain if everything physical is gone?
So far, people replaced CRTs by LCDs, serial ball mice by modern optical mice, floppy drives by Goteks, light bulbs by LED bulbs, HDDs by CF cards..
The Amiga people using FPGA builds even switched Amiga keyboards for PC keyboards.

Now people are currently replacing vintage soundcards by PicoGUS etc.
Now, if optical media without wear (CD-ROMs) are also going to be replaced, why even bother to build a vintage PC?
Isn't by this point a fully software-based emulator more authentic? If it emulates the period-correct peripherals?

Amiga emulators do simulate floppy drive sound and an Amiga CRT monitor, for example, I think.
And PCem/86Box do emulate period-correct HDD and CD-ROM controller cards.
Well, except for the 16-Bit ISA card used for the Mitsumi LU005S, maybe. 😉

The base hardware itself(like the motherboard, CPU, lots of expansion cards, etc) is very often extremely reliable. 99% of reliability-based issues are just bad capacitors. I would argue that the vast majority of retro pc enthusiasts like us are in the hobby for this hardware, not for the peripherals, and for running old software on them. CDROM is very quickly becoming non-viable for a lot of us because the reality of aging components is making these drives completely unusable. I would argue the only good reason to buy an optical disc drive today is for backing up data from existing CDs and DVDs so you can use said data with an emulator solution(be it software or hardware).

The reality is the peripherals, like in the case of CDROM drives are extremely unreliable and not easily-fixed, as I said. I don't mean to be too negative but your argument demonstrates the slippery slope fallacy. I did not push to move away from hardware into the realm of full emulation but you are making the assertion that if one emulates one specific peripheral we may as well emulate the whole thing. Am I getting this correct?

Shponglefan wrote on Today, 02:41:

While drives do need maintenance, its possible to keep things working at this point.

The laser diodes in optical disc drives are a consumable part and they are not being manufactured anymore. All of your optical drives will suffer from the eventuality that the laser diode will no longer produce a laser bright enough to read your discs. The cheaper, later disc drives from the 90s onward will die first because they were built with cost in mind, but the march of time comes for all of us.

Ydee wrote on Today, 17:23:

But if you have a collection of optical media (CDs and DVDs) containing games and software, no emulator can replace an optical drive. If you’re not satisfied with just mounting a game’s .iso image and want to experience the authentic atmosphere—such as the game’s background music through an analog cable connected to a sound card—you’ll need a physical drive as well (with an analog output).

For me, a retro setup isn’t complete without both a floppy drive and an optical drive.

Many optical drive emulators can indeed replace real optical drives. They're also 100% silent which would satisfy the OP's requirements. ODEs like PicoIDE even allow you to play the original CD audio tracks through an analog cable as you say. You are just categorically wrong. The only argument you make that is in any way compelling is the tactile feel of using real physical media. I really like inserting discs/disks as well and even real floppy disks are fun to use when I need to transfer a file quickly to a running machine. However, this is a privileged take; not everyone can afford to keep buying working optical drives and other peripherals when the existing ones fail. For people such as myself, a one-and-done solution like an ODE saves so much money in the long run even when the entry cost is a bit higher than the traditional physical drive. I have bought many floppy drives for example, and all of them either needed maintenance or have outright failed. My Gotek? Still running. Instead of having to fix old peripherals over and over again I can get right to enjoying the computer.

Things like this do come down to preference sometimes but the fact is, drive emulators save so much time and money it's crazy. You have to ask yourself if you really like dealing with unreliable storage or if you like getting on with your day.

Claiming optical drives are obsolete/unreliable/non-viable tech is a bit silly when they're still being manufactured and can be bought brand-new.

jmarsh wrote on Today, 19:05:

Claiming optical drives are obsolete/unreliable/non-viable tech is a bit silly when they're still being manufactured and can be bought brand-new.

Given the context of the OP, none of the drives that are still manufactured would qualify for their preference anyway.

But that's not the context you were speaking in, at all:

megatog615 wrote on Today, 18:59:

CDROM is very quickly becoming non-viable for a lot of us because the reality of aging components is making these drives completely unusable. I would argue the only good reason to buy an optical disc drive today is for backing up data from existing CDs and DVDs so you can use said data with an emulator solution(be it software or hardware).

jmarsh wrote on Today, 19:16:

But that's not the context you were speaking in, at all:

megatog615 wrote on Today, 18:59:

CDROM is very quickly becoming non-viable for a lot of us because the reality of aging components is making these drives completely unusable. I would argue the only good reason to buy an optical disc drive today is for backing up data from existing CDs and DVDs so you can use said data with an emulator solution(be it software or hardware).

This is true, yeah. But I don't think I am incorrect in saying that optical drives should be avoided. Even new ones are built extremely cheaply, and as far as I'm aware there is only a single company who produces them anymore. The only reason to buy one is for archival.

megatog615 wrote on Today, 18:59:

Jo22 wrote on Today, 01:36:

^Makes sense. On other hand, what does remain if everything physical is gone? So far, people replaced CRTs by LCDs, serial ball […]
Show full quote

^Makes sense. On other hand, what does remain if everything physical is gone?
So far, people replaced CRTs by LCDs, serial ball mice by modern optical mice, floppy drives by Goteks, light bulbs by LED bulbs, HDDs by CF cards..
The Amiga people using FPGA builds even switched Amiga keyboards for PC keyboards.

Now people are currently replacing vintage soundcards by PicoGUS etc.
Now, if optical media without wear (CD-ROMs) are also going to be replaced, why even bother to build a vintage PC?
Isn't by this point a fully software-based emulator more authentic? If it emulates the period-correct peripherals?

Amiga emulators do simulate floppy drive sound and an Amiga CRT monitor, for example, I think.
And PCem/86Box do emulate period-correct HDD and CD-ROM controller cards.
Well, except for the 16-Bit ISA card used for the Mitsumi LU005S, maybe. 😉

The base hardware itself(like the motherboard, CPU, lots of expansion cards, etc) is very often extremely reliable. 99% of reliability-based issues are just bad capacitors. I would argue that the vast majority of retro pc enthusiasts like us are in the hobby for this hardware, not for the peripherals, and for running old software on them. CDROM is very quickly becoming non-viable for a lot of us because the reality of aging components is making these drives completely unusable. I would argue the only good reason to buy an optical disc drive today is for backing up data from existing CDs and DVDs so you can use said data with an emulator solution(be it software or hardware).

The reality is the peripherals, like in the case of CDROM drives are extremely unreliable and not easily-fixed, as I said. I don't mean to be too negative but your argument demonstrates the slippery slope fallacy. I did not push to move away from hardware into the realm of full emulation but you are making the assertion that if one emulates one specific peripheral we may as well emulate the whole thing. Am I getting this correct?

Um, I don't really know what to say. I get the feeling I can't win any argument here, either.
As far as I'm concerned, I've been wondering for a while were to draw the line.

For my electonic hobby, I'm using DOS on all sorts of hardware.
Here, my goal is to simply have a specific software running or because I love to tinker with hardware for fun.
It doesn't matter if it's a Thin Client using an emulated chipset or an Transmeta Crusoe CPU.
It doesn't have to be period-correct, either. It's a project, simply, with its own goal.

However, in our video game corner, we vintage/retro gamer perhaps would like to rather have the real thing or an estimation of it.
In order to re-live the 80s or 90s or play the games as intended.

Here, it matters that the PC has, say, a 14" VGA CRT, ISA VGA card, real drives, sound cards with real OPL chip and motherboards from the time.
That it has a 386DX CISC processor instead of a Pentium 4 or Ryzen.

Using the latter would be a form of emulation, too. They're totally different technologies.
It also wouldn't allow us to use a 386 mainboard with an AMI BIOS from late 80s or 90s.
So we don't get the authentic 1980s/1990s boot-up.

It's not about mere function, but about understanding and feeling the Zeitgeist of the era.
Touching, say, an IBM Model M or Cherry keyboard and moving a Genius ball mouse is part of that experiece. It takes us back for a moment.
Just like using a floppy or a CD-ROM. It makes things feel more real.

It allows us to travel on the paths of the developers and early players of the games, too.
We can re-live what they went through at the time.

Otherwise, if that physical part is secondary, then PCem/86Box would be no lesser choice.

After all, our daily driver uses the same modern keyboard/mouse/TFT
that many retro users would now also use on their non-period-correct vintage PCs.

Except that PCem/86Box are able to emulate the period-correct hardware in software.
They have cycle-exact emulation of a 386DX-40 and feature an Tseng ET-4000 ISA VGA card that is being supported by old Super VGA games.

That's much closer to the real thing in terms of specs than booting DOS on a modern random PC,
while using SBemu to get an AC97 sound-chip do Sound Blastery stuff,
while the integrated GPU offers half-broken VGA support in a legacy block that's 1% the size of the GPU's die.

At this point, I think, it becomes a philosophical debate what a vintage PC really is.
It's not about good/bad, but about what someone really wants.

megatog615 wrote on Today, 18:59:

The laser diodes in optical disc drives are a consumable part and they are not being manufactured anymore. All of your optical drives will suffer from the eventuality that the laser diode will no longer produce a laser bright enough to read your discs. The cheaper, later disc drives from the 90s onward will die first because they were built with cost in mind, but the march of time comes for all of us.

Strictly speaking almost everything we have in our retro setups aren't being manufactured any more and will eventually fail. I don't believe that in itself means we should cease using retro hardware. If we can get more use and enjoyment from it, it's worth using.

I also think that using authentic hardware forms a big part of the retro experience in general. This includes using authentic CD-ROM drives and CDs.

Certainly once the drives ultimately fail, we have a fall-back option via emulation. But until that happens there isn't much reason to not continue to use the hardware we have.

I agree with the guys above. Back in the 90s we didn't have a lot of the hardware I'm using now; I missed out. Same with a lot of games too, so now that I'm older and can afford it, it's quite pleasing to own original period-correct hardware. Plus I'm a very nostalgic person, too. I even re-bought a Sega Mega Drive and all the games we had due to me foolishly getting rid of them all in favour of emulation. I thought it a good idea at the time. But then I grew an appreciation for owning the original hardware and games. For the simpler times and wanting physical copies of games in my collection. All digital is empty and the price is no cheaper for them.