DaveDDS wrote on 2026-08-01, 10:29:

You're never going to get the "near perfect" efficiency of a dedicated .ASM written by a talented programmer in any "higher level" language - and this is generally worth it because you get much more ease of programming by "average" programmers (and a lot more speed by talented ones)

Ignoring security issues, imagine a web browser, that's 1000% smaller in its executable, that it entirely fits in the large CPU caches we have now. And OS+Program together, fits in the firmware and instantly boots. Or that, when you load a web page, it doesn't have to page to disk ever, because you also have plenty of RAM with what we now have today. That's what we could have had.

I don't see myself enjoying modern programming because the IDEs are so bloated and unstable. Old stuff might be better, but I never spent the effort to learn anything more than Python and taking a semester of C++ before drifting off to the physics department (where I used MATLAB and briefly wrote some C code for AVR microcontrollers).

I still have the installer for Dev-C++ from that C++ class.

I love programming! Ever since I saw a computer I wanted to write something to make it do stuff. There's something incredibly fulfilling about being able to take some concepts in your head and write them into code and compile them for a computer and then visually see the results of your work. I agree with the sentiment that it is, for me, the ultimate form of creative expression.

lti wrote on 2026-08-01, 15:48:

I don't see myself enjoying modern programming ...

I very much dislike "modern" programming environments, so much so that for personal stuff I pretty much still use my own Micro-C, and I still run much stuff under DOS (long live DosBox 😀 )!

These are the necessary files from the DOS edition of Micro-C:

1.COM  3     19896
2.EXE  4     159587
3.OBJ  2     1682
4.LIB  1     61952
5.TXT  2     400839
6.H    20    25287
7Total 32    669243

But... running everything under DosBox gets troublesome when you want general acces to "host" files - you end up mounting/unmounting DosBo virtual drives a LOT!

So I created "DVM" (DunfieldVirtualMachine) - it implements C-FLEA (a processor architecture I designed to be an optimal target for my compiler) and enough of DOS to satisfy most of my library functions, all the while operating "as if" it were "hosts native", and providing full access to the host filesystem.

Literally you just have to precede a DVM program with> dvm progname args ...

1.DVM  7     45325
2.H    7     8607
3.LIB  2     45893
4.TXT  2     400839
5Total 18    500664

(and DVM.EXE - needs no support files and is a whopping 15k)

--

For comparison, the version of LCCwin32 that I have installed, one of the simplest command oriented windows C development toolsets that I have identified has 922 files occupying about 34m of disk storage. There are more than 400/10m header files alone.
... and much of the documentation is "online"

--

Don't get me wrong, in my "working" days I did lots of projects using ARM, STM32 and other embedded processors, which ment using their (and GNU) dev. environments - but I never found anything I disliked as much as developing for Winblows!

Ever since some major ai heel turns in June-July, "I love programming" was an excuse i've seen among them (to try putting themselves on a higher pedestal when they meant to say they confess to Claude), so i'm skeptical of that phrase by default now, like "full stack devops"

anyway, i did engoo and the 3dfx filter emulation because i HATE programming. last decade i'd have nightmares about math and theory

It depends. My day job is writing in REACT and C#. The software is for internal use by my employer. To be honest I just do what needs to be done. It doesn't excite me like programming did when I was studying software engineering at university. Especially, as these days we are increasingly encouraged to use AI. so I feel like I am constantly reviewing it's code rather than writing it myself (and trying to stop it doing things I didn't ask for) .

Also, as others have said, modern software development really has little concern for optimisation. Everything is bloated.

I have recently got back into MS DOS programming with Turbo C. I am writing an engine for a text adventure game. I am using an old Pentium MMX laptop. Loving it so far. I just lose track of time when working on it.

Programming is fun when you're experimenting to find out what can be done. (Also true for FPGA designs and the like.) When you're in well worn territory and you just need to glue stuff together and give it a UI, the joy is more in the result and less in the process. It helps that I made my own programming language so I don't have to deal with annoying syntax quirks, and adds some novelty to everything I write in it. I would try creating my own hardware description language (HDL) as well, if not for the widespread proprietary nature of the hardware.

I'm not a dev but I like to get things done. When I want to see "Hello, world" on part of the screen I go out and write some code. Next there's an unpleasant part when I need to find errors in that code and troubleshoot it. If I get lucky I might finally get to the point when program compiles without errors and I achieve my final goal and see "Hello, world" on the screen. Certainly, there's a moment of joy there. It works!

But at the same time I can't say that I like or I love it. It's all about reaching a goal for something that I really need and will be useful in the future. I can't see myself programming things that I don't care about just to try myself if I'm able to find a solution myself.

I agree that I always prefer minimal size tools and I'm upset about bloated software, operating systems etc. But we are a minority here and it's not going to change.

eM-!3 wrote on 2026-08-02, 09:34:

... Next there's an unpleasant part when I need to find errors in that code and troubleshoot it ....

"practice... practice... practice..."
Seriously - Like anything, the more you do, the better you get at it!
Beginning programmers make *lots* of mistakes - perfectly normal (it can be a complex business), but as you gain experience with a toolset and operating environment, you will make less and less "simple" mistakes, and the ones you do make will be more and more related to the specific thing you are trying to accomplish (often more of a "learning moment" - and I do enjoy learning new things). Then it becomes more and more about the quality of the documentation you have about the target "thing" and quality of the tools you are using ...

But at the same time I can't say that I like or I love it. It's all about reaching a goal ...

I think the term "love programming" is a bit of a misnomer ... I think a lot of us "like" it, but few actually "love" it - it's always about "creating things" and the joy of seeing this thing you've had in your mind becoming a real thing others (and you) can see and use.

Ever since childhood, I've always been all about "making stuff", I really got into electronics - made radios, lots of analog stuff (even an analog computer!), several microprocessor based digital systems, and more "gadgets" that you could count! - I've got a decent workshop with woodworking tools (mostly to make cabinets for the gadgets 😀 )

But making physical stuff though rewarding in it's own right, can take plenty of time to turn those thoughts into reality (do you know how long it can take to "wire-wrap" a full system! - and yes, you can get PCBs made - but you still have to wait for them to arrive (and hope your circuitry won't need too many "patches" 😀 )

The true "beauty" of software (at least to me) is that turning those pesky thoughts in your brain about stf you want to "build" is much more about the speed of that brain and less waiting on things less directly related to those thoughts!

I always say no matter what you do for a living one day you are going to wake up and not feel like doing it. So pick your career based on what tools you like. Then when you have to do it you'll at least have that.

DaveDDS wrote on 2026-08-02, 11:33:

Ever since childhood, I've always been all about "making stuff", I really got into electronics - made radios, lots of analog stuff (even an analog computer!), several microprocessor based digital systems, and more "gadgets" that you could count! - I've got a decent workshop with woodworking tools (mostly to make cabinets for the gadgets 😀 )

But making physical stuff though rewarding in it's own right, can take plenty of time to turn those thoughts into reality (do you know how long it can take to "wire-wrap" a full system! - and yes, you can get PCBs made - but you still have to wait for them to arrive (and hope your circuitry won't need too many "patches" 😀 )

The true "beauty" of software (at least to me) is that turning those pesky thoughts in your brain about stf you want to "build" is much more about the speed of that brain and less waiting on things less directly related to those thoughts!

I think there is a lot of truth in that. I also like to build things. I have a woodworking workshop in my garage, and an electronics station. Though, I havent done much electronics there yet. Other than repairing a 5.25" floppy drive and replacing a memory chip on my pocket 8086. Maybe 15 years ago I did some playing around with arduinos etc and made some basic circuits. But I didn't really have anywhere to do it then that wasn't in the way.

I have my eye on a 3d printer. That should be quite a fun creative outlet for me.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-08-01, 22:23:

I have recently got back into MS DOS programming with Turbo C. I am writing an engine for a text adventure game. I am using an old Pentium MMX laptop. Loving it so far. I just lose track of time when working on it.

That's really cool. We need more like you. For me, DOS programming will never die. It's just a simpler world, close to the hardware. It's so refreshing. Keep up your DOS programming.

I love programming when I write good code.

No matter how much I do it, I always miss things and have to fix them and it's stressful. I pretty much dropped everything I did for a hobby in that department because I just get sick of it and I can't see it anymore. That and I pretty much don't have energy for anything after daily grind.

And the only reason I picked up the damn thing at work was because I'm tired of the slop that's being put out.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-08-02, 15:22:

... I have my eye on a 3d printer. That should be quite a fun creative outlet for me.

Yes, Yes ... I've not gotten on yet, but it "high on my list" - this should take a lof of the "pain" out of making some physical things.

What's held me back so far --- 3D printers are very "modern" and I find I don't like much "modern" stuff at all --- so much of the business has become oriented toward accommodating people who don't know how to think --- that and the HUGE increase percentage of "pure slop" in technical products.

I'd be very interested in hearing peoples opinions on various 3D printers which might help me decide on one (perhaps we should start a thread (if there's not already one) - I'm not sure how we would justify is as "Gaming related"

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2026-08-01, 22:23:

... I have recently got back into MS DOS programming with Turbo C. ... Loving it so far. I just lose track of time when working on it.

One of the best signs that it's a "right" thing for you (something my wife "notices" in me all the time!

zyzzle wrote on 2026-08-02, 20:55:

... For me, DOS programming will never die. It's just a simpler world, close to the hardware. It's so refreshing ...

Exactly! - lots of people keep asking me: You've published all these good things in the past - why haven't you moved on to "modern" things?

As much as I "love" DOS programming (and other small systems using my own tools), I almost just as much "hate" the many hours wasted in trying to figure out how "modern" developers "think" and figuring out "ways around" things just to be able to write what should be a simple program on almost all "modern" systems.

UCyborg wrote on 2026-08-03, 00:04:

No matter how much I do it, I always miss things and have to fix them and it's stressful ...

Not every hobby is for everyone - there's lots of things others "love" that don't appeal to me at all!

IMHO good programmers tend to think a little differently and approach things differently that "normal"s 😀

And none of this was helped when computers were "new and the best upcoming way to make money" - lots of people not what I would consider "top game" got drawn into that promise, and it showed (still does) in many products.

I think if you're not drawn to it (for the right reasons), it's best to skip it, counting on (and putting up with) the work of others!

I have my own take on this, since I do program, but I don't "come from" programming. I'm really more of an "arts and crafts" kinda guy: graphics, visuals, music. The sort of person whom these days it's fashionable to call "a creative" (whoever thought up that cringe non-noun needs a good extra helping of "a laxative", but that's neither here nor there).

'Modern' programming contexts (at least those I've been exposed to) usually don't feel like practicing an "art" to me, and don't often provide the satisfaction of "crafting" something. So I never really enjoyed it much, until I started looking into oldschool low-level real mode programming... and that's something I taught myself long after it stopped having any practical value in the real world. So it's strictly hobby related. I guess there are some exceptions with the modern stuff, like tinkering with shaders and whatnot, but that doesn't amount to anything substantial by itself.

In my "niche" I sure enjoy things like remaking Bill Gates' "DONKEY" game to fit in a boot sector, writing Area 5150 demo effects, or fitting a somewhat powerful font editor in 12 KB. But for example, take the fonts you create with that editor... if you want them to ever be useful in 'modern' contexts, you have to add Unicode mappings; and a useful Unicode map editor pretty much means a modern environment, both for the encoding/decoding and for the rendering. So the map editor ended up being a bloated-feeling web app taking up some 600 KB of code and data (after optimization and compression), and wasn't half as fun to work on as the font editor itself.

The funny part is, I use HLLs for 'modern' projects (and professionally), but for the oldschool stuff I've grown too attached to having a pure ASM interface to the system. So much so that I have an unreasoning aversion for using HLLs for DOS/8086 targets, because I'm too used to having precise control of where everything goes and how it's implemented and accessed... no artificial restrictions like conforming to "calling conventions", working with "memory models", and other such square pegs invented for round holes. :-D

Yep, it's purely a self imposed limitation, and it just makes my own life more difficult when I try to conceive of bigger and KeWLeR oldschool projects. So is my way of being unproductive in fact counter-productive? When I stick with what I enjoy, am I in fact standing in the way of my own enjoyment? Will our heroes survive? All that and more, after the break!

DaveDDS wrote on 2026-08-03, 00:54:

Exactly! - lots of people keep asking me: You've published all these good things in the past - why haven't you moved on to "modern" things?

As much as I "love" DOS programming (and other small systems using my own tools), I almost just as much "hate" the many hours wasted in trying to figure out how "modern" developers "think" and figuring out "ways around" things just to be able to write what should be a simple program on almost all "modern" systems.

Maybe an even better reason: there are more than enough people working on "modern" code, but those who actually have your degree of experience with vintage software/hardware aren't getting any more numerous, and are even more sorely needed these days sharing the fruits of that knowledge. So sticking with "the old stuff" probably increases the actual benefit to the world.

I mean, if you (or anyone else in your position) don't fix the next round of security vunerabilities in everyone's favorite JS runtime, someone else probably will... but if you guys tackle that stuff, how many others stand in reserve to better the world with imaging tools for weird disk formats, BIOS extensions for XTs, new benchmarks, or lightweight TCP stacks? :)

VileR wrote on 2026-08-03, 14:31:

I have my own take on this, since I do program, but I don't "come from" programming. I'm really more of an "arts and crafts" kinda guy:

I've *never* been what most people would call "artistic" - but I consider that more on society thinking "art" is something that "looks nice" (even my "stick men" are bottom-rung 😀 )

Most anyone can draw.
Most anyone can swing a bat, or a club or a racket.
Most anyone can "program" (even it it's just "Hello world")
Most anyone can (insert common activity - not something that requires specialized trainnng - like fly a plane)

I think "true art" is excelling at something to reach "top level".

Someone who draws exceptionally pleasing or accurate renditions is an "artist"
"" draws very technically accurate diagrams and plans ""
"" performs physical things, sports etc. to top level ""
"" who creates software with exceptional quality, efficiency and reliability at top level ""

You'll note the words "pleasing" and "top level" in the above, what constitutes art is very subjective!
- the most important thing is: you have to like and appreciate what you do and not get caught up in what others might think of it.

'Modern' programming contexts (at least those I've been exposed to) usually don't feel like practicing an "art" to me ...

Agreed, technical stuff in general has gotten so "disposable" in society today - it becomes all about "how quick can we bash it out - don't waste time making it high quality, efficient or reliable, we expect it to be thrown out soon anyway - just keep cranking them out as fast as you can.

... for the oldschool stuff I've grown too attached to having a pure ASM interface to the system. So much so that I have an unreasoning aversion for using HLLs for DOS/8086 ...

Exactly why I created my own 'C' compiler - I always liked that 'C' seems pretty close to the flexibility of assembly without having to keep track of a myriad of machine specific details.
I've continued to use my own compiler for almost everything I've written (and it does nice in-line ASM when I need). I like that I know exactly what code will be generated and that it follows exactly what I coded (lets not even talk about that "++"variant of the language) - and over the years I ported it to over a dozen different processors which makes moving code around so much easuer!

Even when I "gave up" and had to use Winblows as my main desktop .. after looking at and getting more and more disgusted at various commercial development environments and the insane overhead to just start/stop and do simple I/O, I decider to make DunfieldVirtualMachine which runs most of my code with just a recompile.

I effectively died in 2019, after I "came back" I decided I just didn't want to deal with the way the business seems to be going, so now I'm officially retired- I still very much into building stuff and programming, but now I do it on my own term and don't have to produce things for other people to "like and understand".