Kekkula wrote on Yesterday, 14:28:

Since people have strong feelings about anything ai involved, I suggest creating dedicated ai discussion area. It would have all […]
Show full quote

Since people have strong feelings about anything ai involved, I suggest creating dedicated ai discussion area.
It would have all ai related discussions so people who don't approve ai usage could avoid this area and we wouldn't have all the fights.
I think it would make moderators work much easier.
Rules would be simple no ai discussions on regular threads, and ranting in ai area would automatically get you banned.

You want to avoid disagreements and discussion? On the internet? Good luck!

Hi, that sounds reasonable on one hand, but on other hand it reminds me of former, stereotypical "whites only" spaces (cafés etc) from US media.
From my European point of view, I also grew up with the concept that democracy must be able to handle opposite views.
But this is a forum, of course.. Not exactly sure what to think, it's tough. Hm. 🤷‍♂️

I wouldn't like the idea that a thread in one section can't mention AI nor that the moment its mentioned it "belongs" in the AI section.

AI is a huge and pervasive part of things now, including vintage games, computing, programming etc, there have been interesting discussions already in the middle of other regular threads, its fine

a programming / development section might be nice, and some AI for dev topics would naturally happen there

Still do not understand the viceral hate of fruits of AI. Soon we will have allmost all modern drivers for DOS and Windows 3.1x and 9x. Wtf is the harm?

Sorry but meaning of this thread is not to start any ai discussion.
There's plenty of reasons to hate ai living next to data centres, farmers not having water, elevated electricity prices... etc
And there's just as many benefits of ai.
But I don't think this is the place for those discussions, and easiest solution is not to prohibit discussion (North Korean way), but just separate folks. Time will smooth opinions eventually but now is just too early days for fruitful discussions.

Cyberdyne wrote on Yesterday, 15:25:

Still do not understand the viceral hate of fruits of AI. Soon we will have allmost all modern drivers for DOS and Windows 3.1x and 9x. Wtf is the harm?

Its not always the fruits it brings at the moment, but where its destination is. Soon many out of jobs is one small part of it, i have used only free chat and it makes so many mistakes there. I do not like AI because of the resources it needs and to trust AI is like to trust a liar and a thief. Yes there are good retro examples like Velocity9x drivers, but still i do not believe in AI and probably never do.

AI has no soul and never will, its a machine. I also do not like smart devices, smart cities, virtual / augmented reality, internet of things, but i still like retro computers and i like wired devices more than wireless, yes its more comfortable to use wireless and the same with AI, its easy to use and it will think for you.

I see AI as a trap, maybe not in the moment, not short period of time, but at the long run without specific and controlled use case. Many uses AI a lot, but i am not one of them and by time goes by, i try to reduce it to zero, as if i am just bit curios what and how it does it things.

Jo22 wrote on Yesterday, 14:43:

Hi, that sounds reasonable on one hand, but on other hand it reminds me of former, stereotypical "whites only" spaces (cafés etc) from US media.
From my European point of view, I also grew up with the concept that democracy must be able to handle opposite views.
But this is a forum, of course.. Not exactly sure what to think, it's tough. Hm. 🤷‍♂️

Comparing making a subforum dedicated for a specific topic to segregation in the United States is the craziest thing I've heard in quite some time. And is quite insulting to those affected by institutional racism.

Forums are already organized into subforums.

Kekkula wrote on Yesterday, 15:51:

Sorry but meaning of this thread is not to start any ai discussion. There's plenty of reasons to hate ai living next to data cen […]
Show full quote

Sorry but meaning of this thread is not to start any ai discussion.
There's plenty of reasons to hate ai living next to data centres, farmers not having water, elevated electricity prices... etc
And there's just as many benefits of ai.
But I don't think this is the place for those discussions, and easiest solution is not to prohibit discussion (North Korean way), but just separate folks. Time will smooth opinions eventually but now is just too early days for fruitful discussions.

No one hates the "fruits". People hate the inflated hardware prices, job losses, energy usage, water usage, noise pollution, and the list goes on.

Considering nearly all software projects now involve some use of AI, I think it is unrealistic to expect anything involving AI to be restricted to a subforum. Like it or not, it is the new normal.

I think, that the new forum's rule for a mandatory "ai" slop disclosure in the new (software) projects is enough - you'll see that there's an 'ai" involved in the project presentation, and if you really hate the 'ai' slop, you wouldn't bother to open or read the thread furthermore.

There's absolutely no need of more subforums or sub-subforums in the forum.

It does pose a taxonomical issue as you would need to either lump all the AI stuff into one forum and disregard the current classification structure or make copies of all the applicable classification categories for posts. It doesn't seem like a tenable solution.

kingcake wrote on Yesterday, 23:42:

Kekkula wrote on Yesterday, 15:51:

Sorry but meaning of this thread is not to start any ai discussion. There's plenty of reasons to hate ai living next to data cen […]
Show full quote

Sorry but meaning of this thread is not to start any ai discussion.
There's plenty of reasons to hate ai living next to data centres, farmers not having water, elevated electricity prices... etc
And there's just as many benefits of ai.
But I don't think this is the place for those discussions, and easiest solution is not to prohibit discussion (North Korean way), but just separate folks. Time will smooth opinions eventually but now is just too early days for fruitful discussions.

No one hates the "fruits". People hate the inflated hardware prices, job losses, energy usage, water usage, noise pollution, and the list goes on.

Hey, its ok to hate "fruits" too, usually they are not even tested buggy mess of code with patreon/buymeacoffee money begging 😁

Kekkula wrote on Yesterday, 14:28:

Since people have strong feelings about anything ai involved, I suggest creating dedicated ai discussion area. It would have all […]
Show full quote

Since people have strong feelings about anything ai involved, I suggest creating dedicated ai discussion area.
It would have all ai related discussions so people who don't approve ai usage could avoid this area and we wouldn't have all the fights.
I think it would make moderators work much easier.
Rules would be simple no ai discussions on regular threads, and ranting in ai area would automatically get you banned.

Sorry, but none of what you suggest makes any sense to me.

First off, what do you even mean by the term "retro AI"? (and I put AI in bold, because you are supposed to capitalize it.)
Nothing about AI is retro, even when used on old(er) systems.

But leave that totally aside.
If anything, the above proposals would create *MORE* work for the administration, since anyone (especially new members) who happens to post anything AI-related in the non-AI-areas would now need to have the post moved and/or deleted.
Also, the proposal to ban anyone who rants, regardless if in this new "AI area" or elsewhere - that's simply ridiculous! That's exactly the kind of thing to do if you want people to run away from a forum. (And if you ever read any of Snover's posts regarding any such issues, you'd see that would be completely against his stance too.) I can understand the need for moderation when discussions go beyond "heated". But so far, I have not seen that here. I'd even dare to say mods sometimes close threads a little too early and/or unnecessarily (case of the "RAM prices have gone insane" thread, IMO.)
.
.
So no, I don't think we need an AI section/area. As analog_programmer already mentioned, simply having a rule to disclose that AI was used for a project is more than enough, at least when it comes to code & programming. As for people using it to write posts, I'm totally against it, and I believe it was also strongly discouraged too (except possibly some cases, like where someone uses it to translate to English due to not being able to write well or at all in English.)

Kekkula wrote on Yesterday, 15:51:

Sorry but meaning of this thread is not to start any ai discussion.

Too late 😅

My hope is that over time the insta-rage will die down and AI discussions can happen thoughtfully wherever they appears on the forum - it's bound to keep coming up.

"nah" - goggles

Just a few random thoughts from a dev's perspective who still loves to actually develop things, yet can't dismiss the fact that by now AI is already everywhere.

• The genie is out of the bottle and there is no way of putting it back. The way AI companies gained their knowledge was as reckless as it gets. Programmers, artists and many others have more than enough reason to be salty, but being salty won't get you anywhere.
• It's already difficult to get any software with absolutely zero AI involvement, in the very near future there will be almost no such thing anymore at all. So separating AI projects into an extra forum section is a futile fight against windmills.
• There are still reasons to have a lot of scepticism in regard to purely vibe-coded apps, no doubt. Have some faith though, over time even the most ethusiastic vibe-dev will learn that just pumping out stuff, relying purely on AI-written tests (if at all), more often than not creates one issue for every issue solved. And those who don't will eventually lose interset once for the umpteenth time their agents broke two things when fixing another.
• In a sense making software now is like making music or drawing always have been. Almost no entry barrier exists anymore. Everybody can, but clearly not everybody should.
• Instead of hating all things AI, take a closer look at the projects. Remain sceptical about quick-and-dirty stuff, but don't dismiss everything. Lots of crap is (and even more will be) created with AI, but also lots of good stuff that would have never existed without AI.

dosmax wrote on Today, 10:53:

It's already difficult to get any software with absolutely zero AI involvement, in the very near future there will be almost no such thing anymore at all.

Bullshit.

Count that list against the rest.

If you are a professional, you either live in an enviably old-fashioned bubble, or know well enough that there aren't may left who don't use AI one way or the other. Same is true for your typical artist (in the sense of e.g. game asset artists, not necessarily art-artists).

That list doesn't look very optimistic for anti-AI.